Boundaries For Toxic People

[VonNoble]

A hospice patient does not want a reconciliation with an adult child.

They have not spoken in years.

The adult child has no way of knowing where the patient is located,

nor does the adult child know that the parent is dying....although

rumors are reaching that adult child that the parent is sick. Because of

those rumors the adult child is seeking verification of the parents whereabouts

and asking questions about the parent's health for the first time in years.

The friends surrounding said patient's bedside - think it is critical to reunite these

two and "make peace".

The patient remains adamant that they have no interest in reconnecting

to the child and the patient wants to die in peace without the well-intended

friends insisting on this "bridge to peace."

You are the patient's minister. The adult child has become aware of that fact.

Your primary role is to render comfort to the dying patient.

Is there merit for the patient - to nudge a bit for the personal peace accord.

Is it better to allow the dying person to go out "as they choose"....

Does the adult child have any claim on contact? Does the adult child have

any say in this matter? Does the adult child have any moral rights?

If a dying person's wish is to be left alone - is that sacrosanct?

Any ideas to share on this situation?

Thanks,

Von

[RevJackP]

In most cases of a moral delimma like this, you have to let your conscience be your guide. Generally you should follow the wishes of the patient. They have their reasons. You stated that your patient has friends that want this family to reunite. You could let the friends know the contact details of the adult child and let it go from there. But you should explore why this family split in the first place. There may be good reasons that the patient doesn't want to see the adult child. I may be wrong here but it's what I think. There may be others on this site with first hand knowledge of this kind of affair.

I don't envy you, best of luck and may God guide you.

[RayCalculaMinistraDeGezza]

A hospice patient does not want a reconciliation with an adult child. - cranky one, not forgiving and resentful and some 'scared out of cosmic control'.

Hardly any of us are full on Atheists, so there is a sub-conscience to address and bring into the conscience.

The worst often brings out the best in folks, just does.

Based on the "Lord is my Sheppard; I shall not want" is "Creation is pro-generative; Together we are whole" - Earth sickness bags are useful for the nausea this idea starts in me even. Agape love gets you over the bad teeth, bad smell and low I.Q.'q, hate filled folks, etc... Turn these folks around with concept they gotta see.

Also count on Divine Provenience to be a behind scenes influence getting through when subtle reminders are put into the folks heads..

Get a 'healing' dog in the room to start filling in the good vibes and the patient and other member will have a good vibe to draw from and keep attention on the matter not a total focus on the old baggage between the two.

Everything want to be reconciled in life, just think, think, think about the answer's addressing of the issues and you can see and nudge the folks to the successful conclusion they will experience naturally.

This is really more less about what to do and more how to just let it happen a bit more naturally.

Trying to push the situation will breed resistance, bump into pride and stubborn issues, just keep digging them a hole they are all too created to fall in and see the two come together in the near end after all the past hackles loose their importance and the supreme issue is dealt with by 'cooled down jets' - it is only natural.

Just make a space and let an opportunity happen with some subtle baits thrown in as the Minister.

https://www.google.com/search?q=How+people+make+up+in+the+end&oq=How+people+make+up+in+the+end&aqs=chrome..69i57.8943j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=93&espv=210&q=making+up

https://www.google.com/search?q=How+people+make+up+in+the+end&oq=How+people+make+up+in+the+end&aqs=chrome..69i57.8943j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=93&espv=210&q=making+up+in+a+relationship&revid=1946201802

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=getting+along&sm=3

[grateful]

while it is a conundrum, I believe in your primary role, providing solace and comfort to the patient, you must honor their wishes.

there appears to be no love lost between the patient and their child (in that there has been no contact from either side and a request to be left to their own) but the feelings of friends and family are not without merit. often our instinct to "make things right" doesn't allow us to see the forest for the trees. I don't think it would be wrong to have an objective discussion with the patient.

as to the rights of the adult child, right or wrong, I believe their right ends at the door. they can be invited in or told to go away..

[cuchulain]

honor their wishes, absolutely, but of course there is nothing wrong with giving this person all the available information, such as the child trying to find out about their health, wanting to see them, etc... Informed consent? not quite, informed consent, but something similar I suppose.

[Dan56]

I agree with 'grateful', honor the request of the parent. Screw the kid and the friends, the dying parent has enough on their plate without contending with a kid who's asking questions about the parent's health for the first time in years. Often, a wayward adult child will come around just before the Will is read.

[BrDevon]

I would leave it at asking the person who is in the process of passing if there is a message he or she wishes relayed to the child (be prepared for a nasty answer). While we do not have a person in the process of dying (thank God) in my family, it is well known amongst most of my siblings that my mother does not want anything to do with one of her children when it comes to that point. She has caused nothing but heartache and pain to the family and while we have remained civil and will still support her in times of need (she is family), we will not walk near the human land mine she has become unless it is necessary.

[panpareil]

Toxic people are like poisonous snakes. You can handle them if you want, but you will probably be bitten. Best to leave them alone and keep a healthy distance.

[Atwater Vitki]

Having had to deal with this situation and as suggested above, a little behind the scenes research into the "why" of the matter may be in order. The hospice patient and the one on the outside are the only two that truly matter. Leave it between those two.

While gathering information you may need to talk to friends and family, but they are not the issue. Being an effective (compassionate and understanding) liaison between those two, if accepted by the person passing, is IMHO the only two who have a say in the matter....yes your mention of a "gentle nudge" is your only responsibility and everyone else can simply stay out of the matter.

Blessings of Peace and prayer be with you in this dilemma.

[Brother Kaman]

I cannot agree, Atwater Vitki. The only one that matters is the hospice patient. All the rest is just feel good stuff for the living. Let the fact that the living are living be enough feel good stuff for them.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Brother Kaman

[mererdog]

A hospice patient does not want a reconciliation with an adult child.

As long as that holds true, there can be no reconciliation, and a reunion will only amount to a confrontation. You could work on trying to change the parent's desires on the matter, but for what purpose?

I agree with 'grateful', honor the request of the parent. Screw the kid and the friends, the dying parent has enough on their plate without contending with a kid who's asking questions about the parent's health for the first time in years. Often, a wayward adult child will come around just before the Will is read.

Often, a child turned bitter by constant betrayal can be softened by compassion during times of tragedy. Often, it is helpful not to make too many assumptions about who the toxic people are, until and unless you have dealt with them yourself...

[Fawzo]

If I truly cared about the welfare of the patient then I would realize that "forgiveness" would benefit my patient and be inclined to inform them of the benefits of such. Then if they still were not inclined to meet their devil seed I would leave it alone.

[mark 45]

while i have seen a little good advice,i am of the camp that the dieing persons rights be respected.

when my mother was dieing,there were many times she didn't want to talk to me.no big problem,my neice was there so i talked to her.if my mom wanted to talk,we did.

i have a brother my mother wanted nothing to do with.my other brother tried to"bridge"the gap and then got upset when my other brother responded with some very vulgar remarks.

so i say all that to say this,stay away from that bomb.and advise those who think they know better to do the same.or better,tell them to myodb.

[Raincloud]

I agree with a lot of what people have said. Look after the wishes of the Hospice patient.

It's not your job to start patching up people's lives.

A lot of the times family members have erected these personal boundaries because they've exhausted every other method.

[Dan56]

One piece of data not disclosed is; Why doesn't the patient/parent want to be reconciled with their adult child? I'm guessing there's a good reason. Who knows this adult child better than the parent? Trying to force a reconciliation may cause more harm than good. Not everything in life can be rectified by good intentions.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Dan56

[Pete]

I know this is a difficult thing emotionally but my advice is your not there to play family therapist. You're there to support a dying man and his dying wishes. If they want to talk about things such as is there anyway a reconciliation that can take place then okay but otherwise I would do as they ask. Hard that it may seem, people make choices in life and we are not there to make them for them. If you're seen to interfere against the patients wishes then you could end up having them ask you to go and they will then lose one more person of support and feel that must more alone. Build the relationship between you and them for support and you being able to be there for them, but in the end honour their wishes (IMO).

I know in hospital if a patient said I do not want see someone we have to honour that as health professionals.

[Atwater Vitki]

I cannot agree, Atwater Vitki. The only one that matters is the hospice patient. All the rest is just feel good stuff for the living. Let the fact that the living are living be enough feel good stuff for them.

If I truly cared about the welfare of the patient then I would realize that "forgiveness" would benefit my patient and be inclined to inform them of the benefits of such. Then if they still were not inclined to meet their devil seed I would leave it alone.

Why doesn't the patient/parent want to be reconciled with their adult child?

Naturally, each and every situation like this is unique.

The case in our family was totally created in the mind of the dieing by years of manipulation of facts by another family member. He had completely confused facts and events regarding an individual causing the outrage. For years his outward anger covered up his internal hurt.

After the reconciliation was made everyone could tell he passed a week later truly happy and grateful that forgiveness had been exchanged.

This situation of forgiveness is the first thing the 'living' think of surrounding that uncle's passing and how truly wonderful the whole situation was/is/will be.

I go back to what Von said in #1....a gentle "nudge" is the position the minister should make, far different than making decisions for the patient or demanding that reconciliation be made. Quietly find out the misgivings. Ease information from pertinent parties. Gently offer up choices to the one passing.

Delicate and graceful situation not a gang-buster riot act that upsets everyone.

Blessings of Peace,

PS:/edit: and yes Pete, I agree to accept the patients final word, but often quiet conversation about completely different subject can get them to ask about reconciliation. Gentle spirit and quiet reserve is what called for here, absolutely agree the patient has "final say".

Edited November 20, 2013 by Atwater Vitki

[VonNoble]

As always, many times in the last ten years - I am most grateful to all Forum contributors as I have come home each night

a bit weary...hospice work is not for sissies some days.

I have stopped by my office to check your suggestions and weighed each one carefully. Again, I thank you for your genuine

interest and assistance.

I am guessing - as one never knows - that we have perhaps a week of time left to process this issue.

I have gently probed (without judgement or nudging) the depth of the issue.

The patient enjoys beer - perhaps too much, too often but certainly enjoys it is in there somewhere.

The adult child objected to the destructive nature of over-indulgence.

At some point an argument that was probably years in the making - occurred.

As yet - the details are unknown regarding who said what to whom but it is likely we can

write big chunks of that script for our own selves.

It resulted in neither party contacting the other for years.

Apparently just prior to this crisis becoming known the adult child did in fact, attempt to

contact the parent. The content of that mission is unknown because the adult hung-up on the kid.

​That is the only additional information to surface since the first posting. My concern is at the

moment less about a reconciliation and more about the patient finding some kind of peace. I am

certainly not an expert in much of anything. Certainly not in reading the tea leaves of another's mind.

But I suspect you can relate to the fact that there are ways and tones that tip you off that what is being

said is not necessarily what someone means. The patient says that contact is a no no. The patient

has effectively burned that bridge. I am not sure that the logic (justification) of all of that is working

in tandem with the emotions of all of that.

I have visited with the professional on the hospice staff and also asked two traditional ministers re:

their take on this situation and it seems everyone can clearly see there are pros and cons to either

direction. It sort of seems like feeling my way is the best option and making sure I don't make things

worse as the best directive. So I keep the communications open and try and ask gently penetrating

questions to the extent I am able to come up with them.

Any additional insights would be appreciated.

von

[RevJackP]

I just wanted to let you know that our prayers are with you.

[VonNoble]

By way of an update (and a continued thanks to the Forum)

...the adult child in question sent photos and a note to a concerned friend (not me) of the

hospice patient. The "friend" in turn delivered the letter and photos to the person dying.

At the patient's request, I read the brief note from the adult child. The adult child noted that they would like to have

contact but respected that the parent did not want it. The photos were sent in a hope that

the patient would see that love is available, and in hopes of offering comfort. It closed

with the fact the adult child and extended family currently out of touch stands ready to

come and render aid and comfort if contacted.

The patient listened while I read the letter then asked to see it and did read the letter too.

Then the patients asked for & looked at (studied actually) each of the photos; and totally refused any contact.

Two days later; while I was there feeding the patient and watching a football game, the

patient mentioned the grandchildren and looked rather wistful so I again offered to contact

just the grandchildren if the patient would permit it. So far - the answer is still, "no"

It seems an appropriate time to simply rely on hope and pray for all concerned.

Von