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Everything posted by Pete

  1. I think there is something sad about a person who feels deviance from his beliefs deserves eternal punishment or hell or death. Then to have no feelings for them is somewhat psychopathic. If I believed as he does I would need to pray for all whether they believed or not. This world ain't easy and it is no surprises to me that some lose their compassion and humanity. One such person who committed murder had been brought up in isolation and prevented socialization with anyone but his parents who locked him a cupboard and his father used a rubber hose on him regularly and mother used to use a hot poker to burn him and he had burns all over his body. I guess as he killed twice Dan would of had him executed without a thought of mercy. I could not help but feel for him. It's a sh1t world for many people and they did not get the chances we have had or either that nature had been cruel to them in their development.. I have no regrets at trying to help them.
  2. There a lot who define themselves as religious such as Bhuddists, Quakers UK, and Unitarians and have atheist and agnostic members. Freedom of thought is important but I also believe that politics should be secular so as to ensure that freedom of thought. No one religion can be trusted and especially if its fundamental.
  3. Me neither. Maybe it will just mean fundamentalists will just be ignored in the future. I do hope so.
  4. Oh! I do hope so. The idea of treating people as you want to be treated does not have to belong to religion and I think of the number of wars created by religion or supported by religion and I do hope that people will respond to science and logic rather than centuries old dogma. Compassion has a survival function as well as a humanistic function. We need to move forward with what matters in this life rather the unprovable possibilities in another, I see the campaign against climate change as one of those developments whilst some religious nutters I hear are trying to destroy the planet in hope it brings Jesus back sooner, Sheer madness, I hope for better things.
  5. I have debated often with Dan and even if its the most foul deed possible like killing none virgin wifes in his book he will justify it as righteous. I just hope he is never in a position of authority as. I pity those under him. A bit like the nurse in one flew over the cuckoo's nest mentality. Don't expect compassion if it conflicts with his interpretation of his book.
  6. Dan yes your missing the point. Preventing someone from further killing is self defence. When a person is no longer killing and then to rehabilitate after their sentence is a positive thing to do. You cannot equate the two. To kill when a person is no longer a risk is for me murder.
  7. The ones I worked on rehabilitation had done 15yrs in prison before they came to us. The discipline was strict but after 4 yrs rehab they then returned to the community. Most with a job and a flat. The rule was don't break the law in any way unless you want to back to prison for another 15yrs. I would not call it showering with kindness. More like giving a second chance in life. As I said many had known huge poverty and abuse. Why not just kill them? Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those trespass against us. Remember that line.
  8. We can be moral without religion because science gives us understanding on which we can make moral judgements whilst religion only gives viewpoints of cultures in history and in their understanding. This is often illogical and immoral in today's understandings.
  9. It was done so because this is a monotheist section and I am discussing it from their perspective. This is by an large a Christian section. For me morals are not from a book of dodgy quotes with a questionable source but for people here it is. So I used their language against them. I agree the arguments have grown silly and the game is one of dodge the question rather than hold to a logical thread of a debate. Hence, I take Jonathan's advice and go back where I am comfortable with the logic of science and constructive thought. See you there friend.
  10. None of that made any contribution to the debate and was one of your famous smoke screens. You were the one quoting the OT law to back up your belief in the death penalty. That is the only reason I mentioned it. If Jesus said love your enemies and do unto others what you want them to do unto you. How do you equate that with to support the death penalty. I did at one time nurse people who had committed murder. None of them would I recommend the death penalty. Many took to their rehabilitation and are now living costructively in the community again. I call that a job well done. It allowed for people to turn their lives around and turn away from the old days. Many were the product of poverty and abuse. I thought Christians would get that and support it rather than wanting revenge.
  11. The law includes taking slaves and permission to beat them, stoning gay people; killing disrespectful children, killing everyone in neighbouring towns who have someone preaching another religion,, stoning none virgin brides, burning wayward daughters of priests ect. If the law was followed then we would all be on death row. Jesus even went further as you say even if you think about killing someone you are guilty of murder. I am so glad we do not follow the biblical law. Most Christians seem to cherry pick which laws they like and quote and pretend the rest don't exist.
  12. I know this will not mean much to you Dan but the Pope, Baptist church, United Evangelicals church, Episcopalian church, Quakers, Unitarian church, Lutheran church, and the Methodist church have all said it is not Christian to support the death penalty. Maybe they don't have the same bible as you or do not see it your way.
  13. I believe the point still stands. You are judged worthy of death but saved by the blood of Jesus are now judging another as worthy of death. How is that not look at a splinter in another's eyes when you have wood in your own. Now don't come the spiritual line or we are saying the bible is only sometimes true and cannot be taken as literal.
  14. Matthew 7 1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Likewise  Luke 6:37 37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. I think that says do not judge. It also says if you judge someone to die, then so will you will also.
  15. The question is not paying a debt or being rehabilitated to society but you judge a person to death. Each of the gospels tell you not to judge. That is not to say there should be no law, but to say you have sin worthy of death too according to the bible. For you to want death is putting you as being let off your sin but inflicting judgement on others. As the parable of the debtor who was forgiven his debts but then punished for not forgiving debts owed him. The other thing is most murders are done by the poor and disturbed. So I think those who insist it has to be the death sentence lack understanding or love for their neighbour. Long prison sentences yes but not death. That puts the US in the bracket as China in that so many are killed by the law.
  16. Yet, that means the law (which saves no one) is only there because god has two standards. One he applied to Cain and the other to the Jews later. Your god had mercy to Cain and later was hell bent on kill that person and this person and then later still, decides to have himself killed so he can forgive rather than just forgive. Do you understand. It can work if god has more than one standard to people. Either that or it's nonsense.and god is not always the same.
  17. So your saying God's desires for us changed. I thought God was the same yesterday as today.
  18. I thought Jesus did away with the law. Why obey just this one and not the one about killing everyone in a nearby town who had someone preaching another religion. I also note that Christianity is popular in prisons. Are you saying you would pray with them and throw the switch. It seems like double standards to me.
  19. I am a little surprised as god did not order the death of Cain when he slew Abel and yet you do. Was not that also premeditated.
  20. In the states the sentences look much longer than the UK. I don't know why that is. Life in the UK is about 30years and you may get out early on licence for good behaviour and leave by the home office. The later safe guard is about those who are deemed still a risk. Multiple murderers may never get out. Yet, the states you may get 20 years and then a death sentence I am not saying the UK is perfect, it ain't. But it seems more severe or have I got that wrong. I have met people who went to prison for 15 years living a normal life and I don't believe they would do it again. Life is hard and for some particularly hard. I believe in the second chance.
  21. I have met Christians who believe in the death penalty and others who feel in an advanced civil society it is morally wrong. I am asking all viewpoints.