value of religion

[cuchulain]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You seem to have forgotten, everything you have ever said to me, on the subject of cultural dominance and Christian rights.  I remember, even if you don't.

 

 

I remember with particular unfondness  that "the atheist is the minority in the U.S.", something along the lines of the debate about whether there was really a war on Christmas, and Dan really, REALLY trying to convince us that we were the problem.  The issue with cultural dominance as an argument is that the original Christians certainly didn't subscribe to following along with cultural dominance...or they wouldn't have propagated their religion, which was the cultural minority.  Talk about rolling over everyone, politically or religiously...ask about the responses we have received regarding the satanic temple and religious liberty, lol.  I guess it all hits along my personal pet peeve, hypocrisy.  

 

And here I am realizing that I am responding to Dan again, even though he's on the ignore list.  Ugh...I really gotta stop that.  Oh well.

 

[Dan56]

16 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You seem to have forgotten, everything you have ever said to me, on the subject of cultural dominance and Christian rights. 

 

I ain't forgotten anything, and I still believe Christians have rights. The majority always dominates a culture, but I don't believe any belief that dominates a society should have an agenda that forces everyone to comply with.  By the same token, I don't think minority beliefs should constantly try to restrict or disrupt what the majority have freely chosen to believe. Endorse what you believe and ignore what you don't, live and let live.

[RevBogovac]

On 2/20/2019 at 6:25 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Your confusing the Catholic church with Christ... Religious power forced on nonbelievers (inquisition) isn't anything Jesus would have approved of, in fact he warned us about lunatics;  "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7) [...]

 

Not confusing anything here... the example may involve catholics, but we were talking about missionaries. I include you in that group too BTW.

[RevBogovac]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

[...] I still believe Christians have rights. [...]

 

Nope. People have rights.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I ain't forgotten anything, and I still believe Christians have rights. The majority always dominates a culture, but I don't believe any belief that dominates a society should have an agenda that forces everyone to comply with.  By the same token, I don't think minority beliefs should constantly try to restrict or disrupt what the majority have freely chosen to believe. Endorse what you believe and ignore what you don't, live and let live.

 

You're still trying to make the rules.  No.  You can have cultural dominance; or you can have the respect of others.  Not both.  Clearly, you have chosen dominance.  Enjoy your deal with the Devil.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Nope. People have rights.

 

 

Well said.     

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 2/20/2019 at 3:49 PM, cuchulain said:

I remember with particular unfondness  that "the atheist is the minority in the U.S.", something along the lines of the debate about whether there was really a war on Christmas, and Dan really, REALLY trying to convince us that we were the problem.  The issue with cultural dominance as an argument is that the original Christians certainly didn't subscribe to following along with cultural dominance...or they wouldn't have propagated their religion, which was the cultural minority.  Talk about rolling over everyone, politically or religiously...ask about the responses we have received regarding the satanic temple and religious liberty, lol.  I guess it all hits along my personal pet peeve, hypocrisy.  

 

And here I am realizing that I am responding to Dan again, even though he's on the ignore list.  Ugh...I really gotta stop that.  Oh well.

 

 

 

I know.  It's like a mosquito bite.  It's trivial, but I find myself scratching without thinking.  Even though this makes it itch more.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rev. Calli]

On 2/15/2019 at 1:51 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I don't know the quote that you're thinking of.

 

Motel Six says that they will "leave the light on for you".

 

 

It's too bad they don't clean the room too

 

[Rev. Calli]

Greetings to you all my sisters and brothers,

 

It is an interesting topic.  

 

Depending on why our Aliens are exploring (are they just looking for a planet to strip the resources from or enslave) or are they really interested in learning of the different cultures, they could indeed find many concepts of interest in our different religious systems.  They may not find them very useful depending on their own histories and contexts, but if anything how we express our different faiths and live them out will certainly tell them a great deal about us.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

12 minutes ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you all my sisters and brothers,

 

It is an interesting topic.  

 

Depending on why our Aliens are exploring (are they just looking for a planet to strip the resources from or enslave) or are they really interested in learning of the different cultures, they could indeed find many concepts of interest in our different religious systems.  They may not find them very useful depending on their own histories and contexts, but if anything how we express our different faiths and live them out will certainly tell them a great deal about us.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

 

I was thinking in terms of historic parallels.  On Earth, missionaries frequently make "first contact" with isolated cultures.

 

As a matter of pragmatics, what would such an alien culture need?  The Universe is full of minerals and water for the taking.  Our own world is in the process of replacing workers with automation.  What do we have that an alien culture might care about?  Culture and souls.  The space between star systems is a long way to come for cultural insight.  Missionaries might be willing to make the investment.  I mean -- missionaries.......  Who else would bother?

 

 

 

 

[Brother Kaman]

This would be a great discussion if we had an alien or two to join in. In lieu of that, perhaps we can ask ourselves the question as originally asked. I don't know if religion has any value to any one (or not) because I can only speak for myself. I do not know if I could have formed a moral compass without the influence of religion because religion played a large roll in the society I was born into and raised. Whether or not I accepted or rejected religion in my own life does not mean it has had no influence. 

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Not confusing anything here... the example may involve catholics, but we were talking about missionaries. I include you in that group too BTW.

 

The example for Christians is Christ, and he did not torture nonbelievers or force anyone to convert... And BTW, neither have I

 

8 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Nope. People have rights.

 

So your saying people have rights but not Christians? Last I checked, Christians are people too.

 

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You're still trying to make the rules.  No.  You can have cultural dominance; or you can have the respect of others.  Not both.  Clearly, you have chosen dominance.  Enjoy your deal with the Devil.

 

 

"Endorse what you believe and ignore what you don't, live and let live".... That's not dominating anything.... And I disagree, just because a particular faith dominates a culture, doesn't mean you can't have respect for others.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

39 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

The example for Christians is Christ, and he did not torture nonbelievers or force anyone to convert... And BTW, neither have I

 

 

So your saying people have rights but not Christians? Last I checked, Christians are people too.

 

 

"Endorse what you believe and ignore what you don't, live and let live".... That's not dominating anything.... And I disagree, just because a particular faith dominates a culture, doesn't mean you can't have respect for others.

 

 

 

Said the cultural dominant -- while pretending to be reasonable.  You can dominate or you can have respect.  You have chosen domination.

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

The example for Christians is Christ, and he did not torture nonbelievers or force anyone to convert...

 

And BTW, neither have I

 

 

So your saying people have rights but not Christians? Last I checked, Christians are people too.

 

 

"Endorse what you believe and ignore what you don't, live and let live".... That's not dominating anything.... And I disagree, just because a particular faith dominates a culture, doesn't mean you can't have respect for others.

 

 

"By their fruits, you will know them" -- and that is some foul fruit.  What is the fruit of Christ?  Christians.

 

Before you trot out the usual nonsense about Catholics not being Christian -- Are you the Fruit of Christ?  You, who does such a splendid job of representing Christian values and virtues?        

 

The only way your protest makes any sense at all -- is if you think Christians have special privilege.  Back to cultural dominance.  Most people do not love bullies.  

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

By your fruits...

 

The bible does contain some wisdom.  Let us judge each religion by what has been wrought in their name and see if they still match their chosen description.  Then decide if the religion is of value today.

 

Islam is a religion of peace, at least the majority claim such since 9/11.  Is that what they have brought or propagated?

Christianity is a religion of inclusion.  "all are welcome" i see regularly on various denominations doors.  Are all really welcome?

Pagans are harder to peg, as they are more individualized.  Nature reverence is common.  Do they revere nature?

Buddhists espouse the middle way.  Do they propagate such?

 

My views on the above questions.

1.  Uncertain.

2.  No.  How many trans/homophobic anti anything else rallies do you need, if your all inclusive?

3.  Yep.  They revere nature.  Does that do good?  Positively impact?  I think so.

4.  Hard to say, since they follow a path that doesnt seem to be pushy.  From observation alone, yes.

[Dan56]

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Said the cultural dominant -- while pretending to be reasonable.  You can dominate or you can have respect.  You have chosen domination.

 

 

I'm in the majority, so yes it dominates, but I don't think its disrespectful... You know, you can be in the minority and be disrespectful too... Its not necessarily an either or neither dilemma, respect emanates from the  individual, whether they're in the majority or minority.

 

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

"By their fruits, you will know them" -- and that is some foul fruit.  What is the fruit of Christ?  Christians.

 

That verse is saying just the opposite, if the fruit is foul, they aren't following the example of Christ.. Its a warning, not an endorsement of hypocrites.

 

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Are you the Fruit of Christ?  You, who does such a splendid job of representing Christian values and virtues? 

 

I'm a follower, but the gospels represent the virtues and values of Christianity... And all though I try, I never claimed to be a good Christian. 

 

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

The only way your protest makes any sense at all -- is if you think Christians have special privilege.  Back to cultural dominance.  Most people do not love bullies.  

 

 

Its not a protest, just my answers.. Christians have the same privileges as anyone else, no more no less. Sorry you feel bullied, but no ones trying to culturally dominate you, you enjoy the same freedom as everyone else. Feelings of victimization seem to be running rampant these days, but imo, for people like Jussie Smollett and Christine Ford, its just a cry for attention. 

 

It was not my intention to become a source of contention as occurred in that other thread, but for some reason my views and answers are taken as an offense, but since I've attacked no one or made any outrageous accusations, I'm content to let it slide off my shoulders  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I'm in the majority, so yes it dominates, but I don't think its disrespectful... You know, you can be in the minority and be disrespectful too... Its not necessarily an either or neither dilemma, respect emanates from the  individual, whether they're in the majority or minority.

 

 

That verse is saying just the opposite, if the fruit is foul, they aren't following the example of Christ.. Its a warning, not an endorsement of hypocrites.

 

 

I'm a follower, but the gospels represent the virtues and values of Christianity... And all though I try, I never claimed to be a good Christian. 

 

 

Its not a protest, just my answers.. Christians have the same privileges as anyone else, no more no less. Sorry you feel bullied, but no ones trying to culturally dominate you, you enjoy the same freedom as everyone else. Feelings of victimization seem to be running rampant these days, but imo, for people like Jussie Smollett and Christine Ford, its just a cry for attention. 

 

It was not my intention to become a source of contention as occurred in that other thread, but for some reason my views and answers are taken as an offense, but since I've attacked no one or made any outrageous accusations, I'm content to let it slide off my shoulders  

 

 

No.  Of course you don't find it disrespectful.  I'm looking forward to the day, that you find yourself with Muslims in cultural dominance.  I expect that you will find new value, in minority rights.  Alas, you can not understand any perspective but your own.

 

 

 

You spin the truth like a Dervish.  You have way to many faces.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

Nobody tries to culturally dominate atheists?  The atheists who put up monuments of their own to show their distaste for state sponsored religion, and that Dan then argues they should just take it because Christians are culturally dominant?

 

I guess when you make up your reasoning on the spot, it's bound to change fairly regular like.

 

Back to the original question...does religion have value?  Answer the above questions posed, does the religion in question do what it espouses.  That's a first step I think.  Once you discover the religion does or does not do what it espouses, then you determine whether that is the ONLY path to do what the religion espouses.  Do you actually need religion to do those things?  The answer would appear to be no, clearly.  I can respect nature, and not be a druid or wiccan or pagan of any sort.  And in the cases where the religion clearly fails to do what it claims, such as being all inclusive...I can be all inclusive without any religion whatsoever.  I can have a party at my house, maybe a back yard barbeque, and I can let anyone come who feels like it regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, or religion.  I could let Dan come if he wanted, in theory, and all without the auspice of religion backing anything at all.

 

So...to the value of religion.  If anyone can do any of the things that religion espouses(at least anything that religion can PROVE it can do), then we really don't need it at all and so what value does it have?

[Key]

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I was thinking in terms of historic parallels.  On Earth, missionaries frequently make "first contact" with isolated cultures.

 

As a matter of pragmatics, what would such an alien culture need?  The Universe is full of minerals and water for the taking.  Our own world is in the process of replacing workers with automation.  What do we have that an alien culture might care about?  Culture and souls.  The space between star systems is a long way to come for cultural insight.  Missionaries might be willing to make the investment.  I mean -- missionaries.......  Who else would bother?

 

 

 

 

If I might offer a bit of tangent by way of a science fiction television show, maybe a bit of insight as to why an alien might be interested in our religions in comparison to their own? On one or more of the Star Trek series, it is a practice of observing less advanced cultures that allowed them to better understand their own past development, and to better understand relations between foreign species or cultures, without violating a prime directive against use of influence or presenting technology that hasn't yet been manufactured by the observed specimens.

We may well read about our past, but how better to understand it than to watch it unfold before our eyes, without our involvement, of course.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

13 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Nobody tries to culturally dominate atheists?  The atheists who put up monuments of their own to show their distaste for state sponsored religion, and that Dan then argues they should just take it because Christians are culturally dominant?

 

I guess when you make up your reasoning on the spot, it's bound to change fairly regular like.

 

Back to the original question...does religion have value?  Answer the above questions posed, does the religion in question do what it espouses.  That's a first step I think.  Once you discover the religion does or does not do what it espouses, then you determine whether that is the ONLY path to do what the religion espouses.  Do you actually need religion to do those things?  The answer would appear to be no, clearly.  I can respect nature, and not be a druid or wiccan or pagan of any sort.  And in the cases where the religion clearly fails to do what it claims, such as being all inclusive...I can be all inclusive without any religion whatsoever.  I can have a party at my house, maybe a back yard barbeque, and I can let anyone come who feels like it regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, or religion.  I could let Dan come if he wanted, in theory, and all without the auspice of religion backing anything at all.

 

So...to the value of religion.  If anyone can do any of the things that religion espouses(at least anything that religion can PROVE it can do), then we really don't need it at all and so what value does it have?

 

 

When you sell a crapy old desk, it's available for examination, as is, no false promises.  Contrast that with what Dan is selling.  Everything on faith, any examination of the goods, is out of the question.