RevBogovac

No, but I like to use science to build my knowledge, but if you wish to build your knowledge on another basis... go ahead. You just go and do that. I would be quite grateful if/when you succeed. But in the mean time I'll go for the desired effect using the shortest route available... Too bad, there are a lot of benefits in the practical application of things you might consider "lack of knowledge" as for instance the "self for-filling prophecy" and "positive [self-] enforcement"... But if you choose to discuss the epistemology instead, that might lead to an interesting debate.

To throw in a Dutch "saying": religion is like reproductive organs; it's great to have 'em, you may even be proud of 'em, but don't flaunt 'em in public and don't show 'em to children!

Now you're just going into semantics and details. Yes, Placebo's "work" in some cases (mostly involving pain relieve, where it is high in the "dubble numbers" - some reporting as high as almost 50%). And we can go into the details that the placebo didn't heal a broken leg, but if the patient experienced less pain of that broken leg because he was given one; I, myself, would always give him one... Anyhow, that was not the point; it was an example. Maybe I should have use another example like "self fulfilling prophecy": if you read a few seminal works on succes and self motivation (Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill or Burn The Fat Feed The Muscle by Tom Venuto) you will see consistent results with self motivation through positive reinforcement. If it is faith that provides one this, in a positive way... hey, I'm all for it.

I didn't say "knowledge", I said "science". You're just making a philosophical leap as to justify something that isn't there. There is no - nor will there be in the foreseeable future - proof of the existence of God. He's being discussed for several thousand years by now, so come on... how much time do you need?

This is the fundamental difference between science and faith; in science we actually can know each others limits by publicly stating our findings in a reproducible and therefore verifiable way... Agree 100%, but still I choose to be a "believer"... I like all the little things that come with it that - for me - outweigh the negative... Yep, if nothing else He exists "in our minds"... Hey, Placebo's also work in about 20% of the time (and that is a scientifically proven fact)...

And again;

I don't want to be an @$$, but I have to ask: What is that hope based on? As RabbiO already said; they have not been around for over 8 years...

This is really a bit below par. The measurements in physics are clearly described and reproducible. If I wish I can actually do the measurements myself, but I choose not to because I trust the system of scientific publication after peer-review (up to a certain point). What measurements are you (mererdog) suggesting we do of God?

You are comparing apples and oranges (or physical instances [horses, swans et cetera] with physical phenomenons [the speed of light in a vacuum, the freezing point of H2O et cetera] if you wish). And I suspect you are doing it on purpose to cloud this discussion. Too bad.

This would be the diagram to set it up: Set up would look something like this: Not overly complicated. So; yes, we can measure the speed of light... The only thing left for discussion is the precision of the measurements (how long is a metre, how long does a second take et cetera). But it seems a bit silly to me to compare the results of empiric studies with subjective beliefs...

Huh?!? AFAIK Evanson et al measured the speed of light in 1973 using lasers... Twentieth Century Physics, Volume 2, IOP publishing / AIP press.

Good to hear Von, I'm a IT Quality Manager and have been "at it" for some time too (early 80's) and I must say that from my perspective the world isn't that black/white; yes, companies (in general) are inclined to "stimulate consumption" (it's more noticeable in "white goods" where the washing machines and fridges form the 60's and 70's were made "to last" and now adays companies make them deliberately to lesser quality standards as to "stimulate" consumers to buy replacements earlier on. But having said that I also type this on an MacBook Air (early 2014) and my wife still uses an Iphone 5S (late 2013), and they're still going strong. As far as the "replacement" item; yes, I was aware of that. Dutch consumer laws are pretty strict and still "they" are allowed todo so, as long as it is an "exact replacement". I understand tat too; it is a lot cheaper to have a "standard" procedure than to custom replace everything that comes in. This is good business practice, and as long as it is an "exact" replacement (or better, as Dutch law demands) I see no problem with that... (And you wouldn't either, as "ignorance was bliss"... ) Having been through that "proces" once, I must admit I was more satisfied with the overall service (getting a working Macbook back with all my apps, pictures and working files) than being overly concerned about the materials "in hand"...

How much time did that cost you (including "learning" how to do that)...?

So, which phone do you use...?

That is nice to hear, you're quite welcome!

Maybe it's somewhat of an "interplay"; let me illustrate: if you are a "nice" person, people will be more inclined to help you... Get's to the point of a chicken/egg discussion; which came first? Were (those) people helpful to begin with or did you persuade them to help you because you were nice to them....? The one thing I do "know" is that you have to start with yourself if you want to "improve" the world. So start by being a nice person most of the time, and probable (at least I like to think) most people would like to help you. At least, that's the way I choose to look at the world. My perception, yes. Have I been "burned" (was I nice to people who eventually harmed me)? Yes, several times. But "on average" most of the time it was a pleasant "two-way-street". And if nothing else, I - at least - have my own - pleasant - perception of the world around me...

1. Exactly; and, 2. true (especially that "conditions" part...).

Pun intended...?

That says more about American education than about any religion... That depends on your definition of crazy. In the mean time the (drastic) increase in longevity suggests the world is getting more safe...

Then you seem to be closing your mind to the bigger (historic) picture; "religion" has been on the decline since the "Age of Enlightenment". But yes, "history" does not unwind linear but more like a wave. And yes, at the moment "Religion" seems to be in an uptrend. Stil historically a lot lower that before the aforementioned "Age of Enlightenment" though...

Then you're not paying attantion (at the right "numbers, the "big" picture)... "Religions" are (and have been) loosing ground every day (as they should, in my opinion). A nice resource might be: "The Global Religious Landscape" report by the Pew Research Center.

I would like to invite you (all) to watch my favourite scene from Dr. Quantum: "Flatland" (how to explain the third dimension to a two-dimensional being). It basically explains how I feel (like Dot) better than a whole bunch of my words would:

Thank you, and yes; as a martial arts practitioner I have learnt a lot about Buddhism too and have taken a lot from it. But I still "label" myself a "christian" (agnostic, but still with that "label". It's as I said: So it's just "easy", "safe", "clear" et cetera... The world still "thinks" in labels. we can be all "above that" and all, but in the end, that's how it still works... we all use "labels". I'm open to shedding them, certainly... but they're not gone yet. And as you say: improve the world, start with yourself! (Or, as Mahatma Gandhi said it: “You must be the change you want to see in the world.”)

I, as an "agnostic orthodox christian" - for one, would like to try to "persuade" you back into being that "liberal Christian" again: first let me differentiate between Christianity, the "organisation", which I do not feel a lot (of positivity) for; Christianity the philosophy which I like very much (but you have to be careful to differentiate between the "teachings of Christ" (whereupon a lot of our modern society is based on: equality, democracy, compassion et cetera) and I am quite grateful for (and see the Old Testament and most things "after good Friday" as the previously mentioned "moralising story-books"); and, Christian "society", which - in the end - "we" (here in the "West") are (still!) part of (but I do see changing in the future, somewhere...).