VonNoble Posted March 16, 2018 Report Share Posted March 16, 2018 ONE SIDE.... holds FAITH is a choice. If you want it you can have it..... just choose it. (a secondary group in that camp holds that all you have to do is pray or ask and you shall receive ...after all that is a WELL KNOWN quote from the Bible...knock and the door will be opened...) - therefore if you do not have faith it is a choice. THE OTHER SIDE....does not see - that there is a choice. it is an ongoing process. You don't choose.....you accept that life shaped you and this is who and where you are....today (a secondary......Hundreds of groups claiming they and they alone represent God. ) Each pointing to others and claiming we...we are right ...not them...not those over there - they got it wrong ...... if there is a choice - it is impossible to choose between them...... To the world at large - there is no noticeable difference in the behavior of a faith-filled person of integrity... from a non-believer..... Is faith a choice? Is lack of faith simply a byproduct of life's journey...it is an unintended (not chosen) landing spot? Is faith or lack of it - a choice (if it is a choice) that matters to humanity in practical terms of survival? Can we accept that persons of faith choose that path to find peace? Can we accept that persons of no faith arrive at peace too ? von (adjust the content so you are able to join in - you can take the puzzle pieces and make them work for you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted March 16, 2018 Report Share Posted March 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, VonNoble said: ONE SIDE.... holds FAITH is a choice. If you want it you can have it..... just choose it. (a secondary group in that camp holds that all you have to do is pray or ask and you shall receive ...after all that is a WELL KNOWN quote from the Bible...knock and the door will be opened...) - therefore if you do not have faith it is a choice. THE OTHER SIDE....does not see - that there is a choice. it is an ongoing process. You don't choose.....you accept that life shaped you and this is who and where you are....today (a secondary......Hundreds of groups claiming they and they alone represent God. ) Each pointing to others and claiming we...we are right ...not them...not those over there - they got it wrong ...... if there is a choice - it is impossible to choose between them...... To the world at large - there is no noticeable difference in the behavior of a faith-filled person of integrity... from a non-believer..... Is faith a choice? Is lack of faith simply a byproduct of life's journey...it is an unintended (not chosen) landing spot? Is faith or lack of it - a choice (if it is a choice) that matters to humanity in practical terms of survival? Can we accept that persons of faith choose that path to find peace? Can we accept that persons of no faith arrive at peace too ? von (adjust the content so you are able to join in - you can take the puzzle pieces and make them work for you) I don't believe faith to be a choice. If it were, there would be many people who would have a lot of work to do researching all the claims made of a religious nature or requiring faith, in an effort to determine for themselves if those claims were worth having faith in. And how would they differentiate? How does somebody choose to believe in Apollo the sun god but not Ra? Not Bel? Not Ishtar, or Shiva, or...well, the list goes on and on and ON with religion. There are so many deities to CHOOSE, if it were a choice. I think that perhaps, to choose an example just for example, the pope had been born in ancient Greece, he most likely wouldn't have been a Christian. A lot of people born in the United States are Christian, and most studies I have seen indicate it's primarily a family upbringing issue. They have been raised as Christians, they have been around other Christians, they have heard others make fun of people who choose differently...in other countries that are less religious, it's somewhat different. It isn't that they haven't heard about the bible, don't know about Christianity, or anything like that. It's that they see it as fairy tales, and can't understand how grown people believe that sort of thing(I can't remember the country in question or I would cite it, but I saw lots of interviews with the people there, and it was primarily an Atheist country in Europe). So to answer the last two questions: I do not think people of faith choose their path to find peace, initially. I think they CAN choose to think critically about their path, and I think that many of them do find ways to justify their faith and stick it out. Lots of people are afraid of looking foolish or having others think they were wrong about anything and will fight tooth and nail to prove they were right, even if they might be wrong. Accepting that people of no faith arrive at peace as well seems relatively easy for me. But maybe that's because I have studied various religions and encountered Buddhism. They don't believe in a deity that I am aware of, and they certainly seem pretty peaceful. Does faith or the lack of it matter to humanity in practical terms of survival? I don't know. I can see arguments for both sides, arguments from the faithful that sticking together as a society is important(of course, ignoring that they could choose to side with us instead of us with them ), and the argument from the non faithful, who can often point to the religious as deliberately sabotaging progress in the scientific arena(remember when stem cell research was such a major issue)? I guess that question comes to an "I don't know" from my side of things, but I am open to arguments from both sides. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted March 16, 2018 Report Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, VonNoble said: ONE SIDE.... holds FAITH is a choice. If you want it you can have it..... just choose it. There is a simple experiment you can do. Pick something that you have a belief about, but that is unimportant to your life. Something like "George Washington was the first president of the US" or "There are windmills in the Netherlands" or "My great-grandfather was born in a schoolhouse." Now try to not believe it. Try to believe it isn't true. If belief is a choice, there is no risk, because you can simply wait a week and then choose to believe it again. If belief is not a choice, there is also no risk, because you will fail to change the belief. An underlying truth about assumptions about faith being a choice is that they are the moral justification for punishing and rewarding people based on their faith- they are what make people feel good about engaging in religious discrimination. Which is not to say that everyone who believes faith is a choice will engage in religious discrimination. Necessary but not sufficient, dig? Edited March 16, 2018 by mererdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Posted March 16, 2018 Report Share Posted March 16, 2018 3 hours ago, VonNoble said: ONE SIDE.... holds FAITH is a choice. If you want it you can have it..... just choose it. (a secondary group in that camp holds that all you have to do is pray or ask and you shall receive ...after all that is a WELL KNOWN quote from the Bible...knock and the door will be opened...) - therefore if you do not have faith it is a choice. THE OTHER SIDE....does not see - that there is a choice. it is an ongoing process. You don't choose.....you accept that life shaped you and this is who and where you are....today (a secondary......Hundreds of groups claiming they and they alone represent God. ) Each pointing to others and claiming we...we are right ...not them...not those over there - they got it wrong ...... if there is a choice - it is impossible to choose between them...... To the world at large - there is no noticeable difference in the behavior of a faith-filled person of integrity... from a non-believer..... Is faith a choice? Is lack of faith simply a byproduct of life's journey...it is an unintended (not chosen) landing spot? Is faith or lack of it - a choice (if it is a choice) that matters to humanity in practical terms of survival? Can we accept that persons of faith choose that path to find peace? Can we accept that persons of no faith arrive at peace too ? von (adjust the content so you are able to join in - you can take the puzzle pieces and make them work for you) Hmm... Does require some thought, doesn't it? First statement: If considering a belief system (Judaism, Catholic, Buddhism, etc), then faith is a choice. Within a system, choice may be limited. Example: Many Christians hold that free will is merely choice that allow us accept or deny what God has commanded of them. You are free to choose what will take one to heaven or hell. But, outsiders see this as not having a choice, at all. It is commandments that must be obeyed. These outsiders also question how an all knowing God can allow choice, knowing the end results or He is not all knowing. He does not wish us to perish, but He is all powerful? Why say for us to repent while knowing if we will do so or not? If He doesn't know what choice we will make, but only the possible outcomes of those choices, than He is not truly all knowing. Outsiders see contradiction. Or do they simply choose to see it that way. Second statement: Again, using Christianity as an example, as I am more familiar with that faith based system than others, believers follow that God allows choice to test the faithful. That we are as we should be if we do not repent from sin, which is the only true choice, aside from acceptance of Him. Outsiders can not help be see there are choices if they believe we are shaped by our experiences and shared knowledge, for that is a process of ongoing decisions to have been made. As for the "he is wrong, I am right" argument? Man hates to be wrong about anything. Man equally hates the unknowable. This is why man strives for knowledge or faith. (Which can be seen as yet another choice.) As for the last two questions: Peace is subjective to how one personally defines it. Thus, it is obtainable according to however one wishes to pursue it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted March 16, 2018 Report Share Posted March 16, 2018 4 hours ago, VonNoble said: ONE SIDE.... holds FAITH is a choice. THE OTHER SIDE....does not see - that there is a choice. Any belief is a choice, you hear it and choose whether or not to believe it. If you choose not to believe, that is also a choice. So imo, its a choice either way.. Choice is just a decision, using your own judgement to determine the veracity of something. Your either persuaded or skeptical, and then freely choose to accept or reject it. The only exception might be the; I don't know category (Agnosticism). These are people who have determined there is not sufficient data to arrive at a conclusion, so they make no definitive determination either way. Kind of like a person lost in the woods, they don't know whether to go north or south, so they just stand idle.. But I reckon that's a choice too? "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" (Revelation 3:16). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/16/2018 at 1:18 PM, Dan56 said: Any belief is a choice, you hear it and choose whether or not to believe it. If you choose not to believe, that is also a choice. So imo, its a choice either way.. Choice is just a decision, using your own judgement to determine the veracity of something. Your either persuaded or skeptical, and then freely choose to accept or reject it. The only exception might be the; I don't know category (Agnosticism). These are people who have determined there is not sufficient data to arrive at a conclusion, so they make no definitive determination either way. Kind of like a person lost in the woods, they don't know whether to go north or south, so they just stand idle.. But I reckon that's a choice too? "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" (Revelation 3:16). I am astonished. You have actually taken being tolerant and open minded -- and turned it into an insult. So much for mutual respect. So much for dialog. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: I am astonished. You have actually taken being tolerant and open minded -- and turned it into an insult. So much for mutual respect. So much for dialog. You seem to be insulted a lot, even when there is nothing to be offended by.. I simply believe in free will, and am convinced that everyone makes choices. If you disagree and feel insulted, then I'd agree that someone is closed minded and intolerant, but it ain't me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/16/2018 at 6:54 AM, cuchulain said: I don't believe faith to be a choice. If it were, there would be many people who would have a lot of work to do researching all the claims made of a religious nature or requiring faith, in an effort to determine for themselves if those claims were worth having faith in. And how would they differentiate? How does somebody choose to believe in Apollo the sun god but not Ra? Not Bel? Not Ishtar, or Shiva, or...well, the list goes on and on and ON with religion. There are so many deities to CHOOSE, if it were a choice. I think that perhaps, to choose an example just for example, the pope had been born in ancient Greece, he most likely wouldn't have been a Christian. A lot of people born in the United States are Christian, and most studies I have seen indicate it's primarily a family upbringing issue. They have been raised as Christians, they have been around other Christians, they have heard others make fun of people who choose differently...in other countries that are less religious, it's somewhat different. It isn't that they haven't heard about the bible, don't know about Christianity, or anything like that. It's that they see it as fairy tales, and can't understand how grown people believe that sort of thing(I can't remember the country in question or I would cite it, but I saw lots of interviews with the people there, and it was primarily an Atheist country in Europe). So to answer the last two questions: I do not think people of faith choose their path to find peace, initially. I think they CAN choose to think critically about their path, and I think that many of them do find ways to justify their faith and stick it out. Lots of people are afraid of looking foolish or having others think they were wrong about anything and will fight tooth and nail to prove they were right, even if they might be wrong. Accepting that people of no faith arrive at peace as well seems relatively easy for me. But maybe that's because I have studied various religions and encountered Buddhism. They don't believe in a deity that I am aware of, and they certainly seem pretty peaceful. Does faith or the lack of it matter to humanity in practical terms of survival? I don't know. I can see arguments for both sides, arguments from the faithful that sticking together as a society is important(of course, ignoring that they could choose to side with us instead of us with them ), and the argument from the non faithful, who can often point to the religious as deliberately sabotaging progress in the scientific arena(remember when stem cell research was such a major issue)? I guess that question comes to an "I don't know" from my side of things, but I am open to arguments from both sides. Thank you for all of this. As a follow up.... in this morning’s newspaper there was a lengthy editorial noting .....that thinking about belief, by definition ....isn’t belief. He continued that “faith” is also not belief. Faith...in his view was the result of emotionally driven need ( psyching ones to articulate a belief based impart or in whole by rationalization).....and should not be linked to belief. The writer was a career military man. I would be interested in your opinion of that editorial. I am still trying to sort out his assertions in my mind. Thx. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/16/2018 at 8:00 AM, mererdog said: There is a simple experiment you can do. Pick something that you have a belief about, but that is unimportant to your life. Something like "George Washington was the first president of the US" or "There are windmills in the Netherlands" or "My great-grandfather was born in a schoolhouse." Now try to not believe it. Try to believe it isn't true. If belief is a choice, there is no risk, because you can simply wait a week and then choose to believe it again. If belief is not a choice, there is also no risk, because you will fail to change the belief. An underlying truth about assumptions about faith being a choice is that they are the moral justification for punishing and rewarding people based on their faith- they are what make people feel good about engaging in religious discrimination. Which is not to say that everyone who believes faith is a choice will engage in religious discrimination. Necessary but not sufficient, dig? BRILLIANT! I actually did this experiment. I got a couple of other people to try it as well. EXCELLENT thought experiment. Thank you you for this. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/16/2018 at 10:30 AM, Key said: Hmm... Does require some thought, doesn't it? First statement: If considering a belief system (Judaism, Catholic, Buddhism, etc), then faith is a choice. Within a system, choice may be limited. Example: Many Christians hold that free will is merely choice that allow us accept or deny what God has commanded of them. You are free to choose what will take one to heaven or hell. But, outsiders see this as not having a choice, at all. It is commandments that must be obeyed. These outsiders also question how an all knowing God can allow choice, knowing the end results or He is not all knowing. He does not wish us to perish, but He is all powerful? Why say for us to repent while knowing if we will do so or not? If He doesn't know what choice we will make, but only the possible outcomes of those choices, than He is not truly all knowing. Outsiders see contradiction. Or do they simply choose to see it that way. Second statement: Again, using Christianity as an example, as I am more familiar with that faith based system than others, believers follow that God allows choice to test the faithful. That we are as we should be if we do not repent from sin, which is the only true choice, aside from acceptance of Him. Outsiders can not help be see there are choices if they believe we are shaped by our experiences and shared knowledge, for that is a process of ongoing decisions to have been made. As for the "he is wrong, I am right" argument? Man hates to be wrong about anything. Man equally hates the unknowable. This is why man strives for knowledge or faith. (Which can be seen as yet another choice.) As for the last two questions: Peace is subjective to how one personally defines it. Thus, it is obtainable according to however one wishes to pursue it. I enjoyed your very well organized response. I am continuing to sort through it .... it is helpful. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mieshec Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I dont understand faith. Is it something your unsure of. Is it a God you dont understand or you think is listening. Is it the prayers you think are being answered. What about death. A faith that God will welcome you.....But you just dont know. I think my Mom has faith....she goes to church on Sunday...They give her faith.....until next Sunday.......I dont have faith....Its not a question.....or a..... what if???.....or the truth is out there....I know this...and its my strength against those that just dont get it...God told the Israelites....If God was going to live among them, then rules must be followed. They sinned miserably...SO GOD LEFT MANKIND....Do you need faith to understand the manuscripts that comprise the Bible....its all too clear to me....Mankind without God will destroy himself....We are living.... in that example....I dont need faith to show me the ignorance of mankind.....I dont need faith to steer me to a better understanding or belief....the Bible is the living word of God....theirs no faith or justification that leads me to a conclusion....WHAT IF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, VonNoble said: Thank you for all of this. As a follow up.... in this morning’s newspaper there was a lengthy editorial noting .....that thinking about belief, by definition ....isn’t belief. He continued that “faith” is also not belief. Faith...in his view was the result of emotionally driven need ( psyching ones to articulate a belief based impart or in whole by rationalization).....and should not be linked to belief. The writer was a career military man. I would be interested in your opinion of that editorial. I am still trying to sort out his assertions in my mind. Thx. von Faith as an instinctive need? I am not certain about that one. There is a lot of historical data, lots of societies and cultures through the centuries that appear to have clearly made things up simply to explain the universe, so maybe it's true. Of course, another thing that's true about people is that we are capable of recognizing our baser instincts and correcting those behaviors. So, if faith is not instinctive, it's a non issue. If it is, then we are capable of bettering that flaw(I see it as a flaw anyway, can't speak for everyone). I agree that thinking about belief isn't belief. It's kind of like thinking about drinking water doesn't quench your thirst... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/16/2018 at 11:18 AM, Dan56 said: Any belief is a choice, you hear it and choose whether or not to believe it. If you choose not to believe, that is also a choice. I am not sure it can be characterized that way. it is true and I agree we assess everything around as friend or foe.... useful or not.... but those things are more survival based decisions. Those choices keep us from drinking poison or playing with fire. Those are more experienced based. With faith we are not dealing with a tangible. There is not a measurable cause-effect (fire = burn) (poison drinking = death)...... so the conclusions are less certain. The reason applied far less straightforward. Making a choice to believe without evidence is asking g someone to believe without knowing. You allow that that is NOT really a choice for some. On 3/16/2018 at 11:18 AM, Dan56 said: The only exception might be the; I don't know category (Agnosticism). These are people who have determined there is not sufficient data to arrive at a conclusion, so they make no definitive determination either way. So here we can agree it is not a choice. It is a “holding” position. Allowing 1) they do not know 2) they are continuing to explore 3) allowing new information could move the needle 4) until new information is available.....it is not a choice On 3/16/2018 at 11:18 AM, Dan56 said: Kind of like a person lost in the woods, they don't know whether to go north or south, so they just stand idle.. But I reckon that's a choice too? Hmmmm....undecided does not seem to be “lost” in my view. That has a value judgement. How does actively searching for new information and being fully engaged equality with being idle or stagnated? Help me to understand. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 22 minutes ago, mieshec said: I dont understand faith. Is it something your unsure of. Is it a God you dont understand or you think is listening. Is it the prayers you think are being answered. What about death. A faith that God will welcome you.....But you just dont know. I think my Mom has faith....she goes to church on Sunday...They give her faith.....until next Sunday.......I dont have faith....Its not a question.....or a..... what if???.....or the truth is out there....I know this...and its my strength against those that just dont get it... Please elaborate....you have strength over those who don’t get it... Does compassion for them factor into your world view? von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, cuchulain said: Faith as an instinctive need? I am not certain about that one. There is a lot of historical data, lots of societies and cultures through the centuries that appear to have clearly made things up simply to explain the universe, so maybe it's true. Of course, another thing that's true about people is that we are capable of recognizing our baser instincts and correcting those behaviors. So, if faith is not instinctive, it's a non issue. If it is, then we are capable of bettering that flaw(I see it as a flaw anyway, can't speak for everyone). I agree that thinking about belief isn't belief. It's kind of like thinking about drinking water doesn't quench your thirst... THANK YOU....very helpful to me and I am rowing in the boat with you on much of this....von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Dave Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 3/16/2018 at 9:00 AM, mererdog said: There is a simple experiment you can do. Pick something that you have a belief about, but that is unimportant to your life. Something like "George Washington was the first president of the US" or "There are windmills in the Netherlands" or "My great-grandfather was born in a schoolhouse." Now try to not believe it. Try to believe it isn't true. If belief is a choice, there is no risk, because you can simply wait a week and then choose to believe it again. If belief is not a choice, there is also no risk, because you will fail to change the belief. An underlying truth about assumptions about faith being a choice is that they are the moral justification for punishing and rewarding people based on their faith- they are what make people feel good about engaging in religious discrimination. Which is not to say that everyone who believes faith is a choice will engage in religious discrimination. Necessary but not sufficient, dig? Let's try this experiment with a little different criteria. Take something you know nothing about, and is unimportant to your life. What if I tell you I live in a white house situated on a hill. You can choose to believe it or you can choose not to believe it or you can choose not to make a choice. The choice is yours. If belief is not a choice then you will automatically know whether my house is white .... or green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Dan56 said: You seem to be insulted a lot, even when there is nothing to be offended by.. I simply believe in free will, and am convinced that everyone makes choices. If you disagree and feel insulted, then I'd agree that someone is closed minded and intolerant, but it ain't me. Words fail. Edited March 20, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pastor Dave said: If belief is not a choice then you will automatically know whether my house is white .... or green. Well, no. If belief is not a choice, I will either believe or disbelieve based on factors other than me making a choice. Your experiment does not isolate the variable (choice), therefore its results say nothing about the variable (choice). If I believe, it may be because I chose, or it may be because I was preconditioned to do so, and your experiment gives no clues as to which is true. It also does nothing to rule out the possibility that God hardened my heart amd forced me to believe a certain way. Did you try the experiment that I suggested? Edited March 20, 2018 by mererdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Pastor Dave said: Let's try this experiment with a little different criteria. Take something you know nothing about, and is unimportant to your life. What if I tell you I live in a white house situated on a hill. You can choose to believe it or you can choose not to believe it or you can choose not to make a choice. The choice is yours. If belief is not a choice then you will automatically know whether my house is white .... or green. and dont forget erroneous belief. maybe i think i know you well enough to trust your word on it, and i turn out to be wrong. and level of claim vs belief, that iss...it really isnt something relavent to me so choosing to believe is frivolous, as opposed to belief in religion that claims horrible consequence if i dont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted March 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: Words fail. .... and yet I both hear ya and understand von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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