Pastor Dave

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  1. Not at all Pete. What I said was, There can be no transgression of the law until the law has been given.
  2. Ok, if that's how you choose to see it😁
  3. I have to disagree with you here brother. Without the study of the Hebrew (in most cases) it is possible for translators to be technically correct in their translation yet contextually inaccurate. While the English language contains maybe half a million words, Ancient Hebrew consists of less than nine thousand words. Words with multiple meanings are just more common in Hebrew. For me it seems that the more I learn about the Hebrew language the more I am able to understand the Bible. While I feel the KJV is a wonderful translation it is just a translation. I feel the same about several other translations, they can aid in understanding but none are, IMO, definitive. You can only walk in the light that you have. Ahhhh, Now you are getting into a better, more traditional, argument. The definite articles of evening and morning do seem to indicate a regular 24 hour day. (Oh by the way evening comes before morning in the text just as the dark preceded the light in the text.) Now we have to look at the text and notice that the sun was created during the forth yom, so ... how could there have been an evening and a morning without a sunset and a sunrise? This seems to indicate that they are being used figuratively. The start of the yom and the finish of the yom. Scripture itself sets this pattern for us. Morning and evening are used figuratively in Psalm 30:5, Psalm 49:14,15, Psalm 90:6. Thus, the evening and morning of creation can mean the start and end of the creative process that is attributed to that creation period. Sixty seven verses in the Old Testament translate yom as time, four verses it is translated as year ( In I Kings 1:1, 2 Chronicles 21:19&20, Amos 4:4) , Eight times as age ( Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2 Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7 Genesis 47:28 Zechariah 8:4) once as ago (1 Samuel 9:20) Four times as always ( Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7) three times yom is translated as season (Genesis 40:4, Joshua 24:7, 2 Chronicles 15:3) nineteen times yom is translated ever. When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times). When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times). Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl). There are other good arguments against the day age theory. Perhaps you can find another. BTW, I enjoy this (discussing doctrine) more than other types of discussions concerning the validity of scripture. Even if we don't see eye to eye we can still gather other viewpoints.
  4. If that's how you choose to see it. Parashah 1: B’resheet (In the beginning) 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void Maybe it simply means God created everything that is. Light was created during the first yom Therefore, panspermia. I based my statement only on what I saw and heard when I watched the channel. Perhaps we have different definitions of what antisemitism consists of. I see statements by many Christian leaders as being antisemitic. Some of the more common ones are (and I heard these on Murray's channel) "God is done with the Jews", or even worse "Christians have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people". There are other similar statements that don't come to mind right now but you get the gist. Sometimes there are no matching words in the language being translated to and if translators were to attempt to give every possible translation it would render the text unreadable and much, much, much longer. How would you feel if a Christian were to say something similar, like "Any non Christian who doesn't believe in God should lose access to everything He provides" i bet you'd clam up quick if that were the case.
  5. The Bible tells us........ ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, My observation............ The last sentence of this scripture tells us that this is the end of the story. While this is the begining of chapter 2, this is the end of the ancient account of how, and why Man is here.. We are told that Elohiym rested for an age. Mankind was made during the sixth age. This means that for an age Mankind existed and roamed the planet. This Man was not like modern Man. It was a creature much like us, but this Man did not know right from wrong. This Man was, for the most part, just an intelligent animal. For a man, 3500 to 4000 years ago, to have even this basic of an understanding of how the universe started is extraordinary to say the least. This leads me to believe this man when he says that this information is from a being much more knowlegeable (omnipotent) than himself or any other man 3500 to 4000 years ago. From rocks floating in space before the stars formed, to an atmosphere forming around the planet to plants coming into being and then sea life then birds and dinosaurs then the mammals and finally Man. For Moses to have explained the different stages of what it took for this world to have come into being I have to believe the being who told him about it had something to with doing it.
  6. The Bible tells us........ ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth (Age). Science tells us....... After the dinosaurs and birds evolved, the mammals started to appear; herd animals, small animals and they reproduced and filled the earth with mammal life. Man is the most recent form of life to appear on the planet. Mans intelligence has allowed him to dominate life on this planet. When animals breed they produce the same kind of animal (except in those rare instances where some unknown force has caused animals to quickly "evolve" into entirely new species). It was like that for millions of years. My observation............ Here creature is again nephesh, (creature (Genesis 1:24 0024) Hebrew: 5315 nephesh neh'-fesh: from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of vitality;) this is the same word used to end the last (Age). The term "after his kind" in fact means of their own species. Strong; (kind (Genesis 1:24 0024) Hebrew: 4327 miyn meen: from an unused root meaning to portion out; a sort, i.e. species:--kind. ). The word "cattle" refers to more than just cows. Strong; (cattle (Genesis 1:24 0024) Hebrew: 929 bhemah be-hay-maw': properly, a dumb beast; especially any large quadruped or animal (often collective):--beast, cattle.). Prior to this the animals talked about were illusive. This is our first indication of what types of animals are being talked about. Clearly we are talking about mammals now. I find it interesting that the mammals appear in this story during the last Creative (Age). The last creature created in the Bible is Man. Science agrees that humankind is the most recent addition to the plethora of lifeforms that have lived on this earth. Man has taken over this planet.
  7. The Bible tells us........ ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth (Age). Science tells us....... Animal life also began in the water. The most primitive fish are invertebrates, of which some still exist today. These would most likely be the first fish to occupy Earth. These primitive and relatively unspecialised organisms would have adapted over a long period of time (millions of years). And they mated and reproduced each in it's time and filled the planet with life. When they breed they produce the same kind of animal (except in those rare instances where some unknown force has caused animals to quickly "evolve" into entirely new species). It was like that for millions of years. My observation............ Here let's look at the first word translated as creature in the Biblical account, according to Strongs concordance,( creature (Genesis 1:20 0020) Hebrew: 8318 sherets sheh'-rets: from 8317; a swarm, i.e. active mass of minute animals:) not only are the first animals said to come from the waters, but they are also said to be minute animals. The great whales spoken of in the Biblical account could also have an alternative translation, according to Strongs concordance, (whales (Genesis 1:21 0021) Hebrew: 8577 tanniyn tan-neen': or tanniym (Ezek. 29:3) \{tan-neem'\}; intensive from the same as 8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent , sea-monster, serpent, whale) this word could have meant any giant creature including most of the dinosaurs that inhabited watery and coastal areas. Now let's look at the second word translated as creature in the Bible (creature (Genesis 1:21 0021) Hebrew: 5315 nephesh neh'-fesh: from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal). This is a different word and conveys a different meaning. This word would cover smaller more common animals such as amphibians and small reptiles.
  8. The Bible tells us........ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth (Age). Science tells us....... As the Universe expanded, and thus cooled, matter began to coalesce into gas clouds, and then stars and planets. At the time Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago, other smaller planetary bodies were also growing. One of these hit earth late in Earth's growth process, blowing out rocky debris. A fraction of that debris went into orbit around the Earth and aggregated into the moon. . And it has been like that for billions of years. My observation............ The Bible is not specific on how Elohim formed the moon. During those first billions of years stars were lighting up fairly often so many of the stars in our sky ignited long after the planet formed. The moon, stars and sun have been used by mankind to mark time as far back in history as we can trace, in all cultures.
  9. The Bible tells us........ ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And the evening and the morning were the third (Age). Science tells us....... In those seas, the first primitive forms of life appeared and with the coming of the first marine plants, photosynthesis began.The evolution of the plants and animals most familiar to us occurred only in the last 550 million years. The development of plant communities such as the relatively ancient clubmosses, horsetails, and ferns, are examples of early plantlife. Plants were the first living organisms in the sea and on the land. And the earth filled itself with plants, first came the simpler plants and then the more complicated plants such as the more recent gymnosperms (for example, conifers) and angiosperms (flowering plants). It was like that for millions of years. My observation............ While science makes it clear that the first plants developed in the sea and then later on land, it is interesting to note that the Bible puts plants on earth as the first life forms. In fact the Hebrew word translated grass here may have been better translated as vegetation, which could mean any type of vegetation including sea plants.The Bible also shows a lineage from simpler plants to the more complex plants. Plants were the first life forms on earth. Enough for today, maybe tomorrow I can get to Jonathan's query about the fourth Day.
  10. Moving on .... The Bible tells us........ ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament {atmosphere} in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament {atmosphere}, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament {sky} from the waters which [were] above the firmament {sky}: and it was so. And God called the firmament{sky} Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second (Age). Science tells us....... It is thought that the creation of the Earth's early atmosphere was due to the late buildup of meteorites and comets rich in 'volatile elements', such as hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen, which would have vaporized on collision with the Earth. Because of the abundance of hydrogen in the solar nebula, the early atmosphere of the Earth was probably laden with hydrogen and hydrogen rich molecules such as methane, ammonia and water vapour (similar to that on Jupiter and Saturn today). With the subsequent formation of seas , the atmosphere continued to evolve. The Earth's surface and atmosphere gradually cooled. Cooling caused some of the water vapor to condense into clouds, and rains gave rise to the first rivers, lakes, and seas. The global water cycle had begun. It was like that for billions of years. My observation............ The formation of an atmosphere and a water cycle were the next major developments. The atmosphere separates the clouds from the rivers and oceans. This allows continual renewal of the water supply. It is important to note that the word translated as Heaven by the KJ is not speaking of the place we go if we lead a Godly life. According to Strong's concordance the word Heaven - (Hebrew: 8064 shamayim shaw-mah'-yim; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky... ) in this case (and others) simply means sky.
  11. Moving past 1:1 let me make a few more observations on what the Bible says about the creation. The Bible tells us........ .And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Science tells us....... Just after the big bang all of the matter in the universe floated in the darkness.. As the Universe expanded, and thus cooled, matter began to coalesce into gas clouds, and then stars and planets. My observation............ Both science and the Bible tell us that right after this universe began neither the earth, nor the sun and stars were instantly there. The Bible tells us........ And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first (Age). Science tells us....... As our planet rotates on it's axis, the planet is alternately exposed to the sun and then to the vastness of space, giving us day and night. My observation............ The word translated Night by the KJV means more than just darkness. According to Strong's concordance the word Night - (Hebrew: 3915 layil lah'-yil: properly, a twist (away from the light), i.e. night; ...) implies knowledge of the earth's rotation as the reason for day and night.
  12. You have me slightly bewildered this time RabbiO. Usually when you point out that our English translations may not reflect the Hebrew accurately I am able to find some alternate reading to help me understand what could have been translated differently. Even the OJB and the CJB (both Messianic translations, I admit, still Jewish translations) start with In the beginning So I went to my Strong's Hebrew concordance and this is what I find; Genesis 1:1 (Hebrew) beginning: 7225 re'shiyth ray-sheeth': from the same as 7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing. HW 7218 I suppose this could make the reading slightly different. I'll have to meditate on this for a while. Thanks
  13. Hmmm, where to go with this one? I'm glad to see you are at least open to the possibility of other meanings Dan. Arnold Murry, I remember when I had Dish network as my television provider Arnold Murry had the Shepard's Chapel channel. I tried to watch it a few times as I like to have multiple views to compare. I was never able to watch that channel for very long at a time. Whether it was Pastor Murry himself or other speakers on the channel I always got the impression that these would be the religious leaders one might find at a ** rally or some other white supremacist gathering. I may have just been tuning in at the wrong times, but it seemed to me that none of the speakers I saw could go a full 30 minutes without making some kind of antisemitic remark.
  14. Since most of us o not read or speak Biblical Hebrew we have to work through translations. A large part of translating is choosing the best word from the new language to use. Sometimes the language being translated to does not have a single word that means exactly the same thing as the original language. My favorite example of this is the Hebrew word shalom. Most English translations use peace, but shalom means so much more. Interpretation will always be needed also because if I tell ten people the same story with the exact same words we would likely get ten different views when they are asked what was said. IMHO
  15. Is science moving back to the steady state theory? I hadn't heard that before. We may understand the big bang theory a little differently. My understanding of the Big Bang Theory is that the entire universe (not just our galaxy or each individual galaxy) came into being when some unknown force (which we won't, for any reason, call or attribute, to any God) caused the entire universe to expand from a singularity not a "massive" black hole. "The entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before the "Big Bang" when space and time did not exist. According to the predominant cosmological models that explain our universe, an indescribable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature , that was unbelievably dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy, but space and time itself." You do however bring up a very interesting point. The universe is said to be filled with black holes, each of which has a singularity at it's center. Given that science says that there was no need for a first cause for the big bang it stands to reason that any of those singularities could, without reason, explode into a new verse at any time. My question here would be "Would those new verses exist within our verse or would they exist outside our verse in a multiverse?"
  16. Sorry folks, I had internet problems Friday and a very busy weekend. It looks like not much progress has been made in going through the Genesis account of creation. I'll try to move thing forward a little if I can. First let me make a few responses. I believe that to be The Living Bible translation. Although I do not use that translation much when studying the Bible I can certainly see your point. Agreed!
  17. I'm not telling you to stop believing in the six literal days of creation Dan. Twenty years ago I could argue 24 hour days as well as anyone. I suppose I still could. Coolhand was asking for exegesis of Genesis. I'm just trying to give him one that might be less mainstream. Yes I also used to use 2 Peter when I first got away from the 6 24 hour days. I'm not trying to convince anyone that how I see Genesis 1 is the only way that could be right. Just wanted to put a less talked about possibility out there to think about.😁
  18. Yes, science is generally known for finally admitting when a previous theory is proven to be false ... Usually years and years later, sometimes decades pass before new theories are accepted. But hey, at least they usually, eventually become accepted. I understand that you feel the need for compelling evidence in order to believe in God. That's fine with me. I would enjoy being the person who presents you with that compelling evidence though, I don't think it's likely to happen in this thread.
  19. Thanks for your acknowledgement of the possibility of the days not having to be 24 hour days.😎 I'm not quite to the fourth day yet. Hopefully we will be able to get there though .😌 😁
  20. For example, the first three words of the Bible state, in the beginning. Up until the early 20th century the best minds in science were adamant that the universe had no beginning nor would it have an end. It was known as the steady state theory. After Einstein's equations on general relativity were discovered George Lemaitre proposed, in 1927, an expanding model for the universe to explain the observed redshifts with spiral nebulae and calculated the Hubble law leading us to the big bang theory. After three and a half millennia science finally caught up to the Bible saying that the universe had a definite beginning. While Stephen Hawking said that there was no need for a first cause, that goes contrary to everything else we know about the physical universe.
  21. Ok Coolhand, let me start by saying, I see Genesis 1 as a best explanation of how the universe began to a man 3500 years ago. Men who did not have the knowledge that we have accumulated over time. I was once taught that when looking at scripture, if a text can be looked at from more than 1 perspective, it should be. All possible views should be examined, and the most likely or most reasonable understanding should be given the most validity. The first thing I think we should discuss is the use of the word Yom. The Hebrew word Yom has multiple meanings. While it is traditionally understood to be a 24 hour day, it is also used to refer to the time from sunup to sundown, just as in English. Where it gets interesting is when we look at some of the other ways Yom can be used. The most applicable, to me, would be that Yom can be used to denote an undetermined amount of time, such as an Eon or age. When we look at the use of the word Yom through out Genesis 1 as an age or Eon the whole text seems to have taken on a different level of explanation. In my opinion, when looked at in this way it seems that science is finally catching up with what is being explained in Genesis. There are only a couple of places where science and Genesis disagree. In those areas science can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's explanation is more accurate than the Genesis account.
  22. The real question to me is, who exactly is this money owed to?