Pastor Dave

Master Debater
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About Pastor Dave

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    Disciple of the Way
  • Birthday 08/20/1962

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  • Religious Affiliation
    Christian
  • Marital Status
    Married
  • Ordination Date
    07/17/2001

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    Male
  • Location
    Southern Illinois

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  1. Amen Dan
  2. Yes there was a lot of politics in that article. It was just one of those things that happened to come up on my computer and I thought it kind of went with this topic even though a lot of it was about Christianity and its part in the current political landscape.
  3. Declining influence of white Christian America in charts.
  4. No, and since you seem to be a reasonably intelligent person I'm amazed that you missed the analogy. Just as you would not attempt to prove that molecules exist without the tools needed to do so, I will not attempt to prove Gods existence without the tools necessary to experience Him. You cannot prove there are other galaxies without tools You cannot prove radio waves exist without tools You cannot prove bacteria exist without tools Why would a reasonably intelligent man expect someone to prove God exists if he refuses to use the tools?
  5. So how do I know these "pictures" of molecules are real? I can make something that looks exactly the same in my photo editing software. Now I'm not saying that they were faked, I'm just saying that I could fake them if I tried. I believe they are real ... but I have not been given any proof that they are real. I have not seen the machinery, I have not verified the results. We all believe a lot of things that we have not taken the time and effort to seek proof of. If I had to research the validity of everything I wouldn't have time to anything. What I'm getting at is this; Tools Tools, Tools, Tools Without a microscope we would have no proof of the invisible world of virus, bacteria, cells, molecules......... Without a telescope we would have no proof that the lights we see in the night sky are not all just stars and planets but also galaxies nebulas comets and the likes. Without books you would have to learn everything through your own experiences. Yet you ask for proof that God exists while you refuse to use the tools that are necessary to obtain that proof. Prayer being the primary tool needed to experience communication with God. The Holy Scriptures being the books written about others experiences with God. The Holy Spirit being a guiding force to lead us to a relationship with the great God YHWH. My challenge to you is to provide proof that molecules exist without the writings of men or any tools such as a(n) (atomic force) microscope. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but rather, I'm trying to show you my perspective when someone asks for proof of God but refuses to accept the use of the proper tools needed to see those proofs.
  6. Got to go with Brother Kaman here .... If they had chose any other day of the week to be closed it would be a non issue. As owners of the business they have the right to choose what days to be open and what days to be closed. I certainly don't want the government telling business' when they must be open and when they must be closed. From my perspective I would have to say no, Christians are not taking over America. It seems to me that there is less Christian influence in America now than there was when I was young. I remember as a kid in a certain parts of the country there were "LAWS" on the books that prohibited certain business' from being open on Sundays. Some other business' were allowed to open but could not sell certain items from their inventory (items used to do work). Think hardware stores, heavy equipment rentals .......
  7. Interesting position. That statement suggests, to me, that, for you, molecules and atoms did not exist until recently. I say did not because it wasn't until 2013 that the first "picture" of a molecule was ever produced. First-ever high-resolution images of a molecule. We had lots of drawings but no actual pictures. We took it on faith in the scientific community that molecules and atoms were real. I'm fairly sure that is not actually the case. You likely believed scientists were right even though the best they could do was draw pictures of what they believed molecules and atoms looked like.
  8. Forgot on that last part I'd also like to add, Paul tells us in Romans 11:18 Romans 11:18Common English Bible (CEB) 18 then don’t brag like you’re better than the other branches. If you do brag, be careful: it’s not you that sustains the root, but it’s the root that sustains you. The Jewish roots sustain the Christian branch.
  9. I'm not sure I see this in the way you are describing it. For me the "original sin" was simply disobedience of YHWH. We are born into a world that is influenced by the results of that original act of disobedience. (We are no longer in an Edenic state) Because we live in this world sin abounds. Our salvation is from our our own sins. Living with the guilt of past mistakes, past wrongs you have suffered, past abuses you may have endured can have an undesirable effect on a persons life. It can drain the enjoyment of life itself. When we are forgiven we then learn to forgive. When we can forgive and have been forgiven we are able to leave the bad things of the past and move on in anticipation of the good things yet to come. Yeshua (Jesus) offers us that. I can accept that Christian fathers may have seen something that wasn't there to begin with. It still wouldn't change my core beliefs. Yes I've heard the Akhenaten theory before. I would say that it is within the realm of possibilities that it has some merit. I enjoy explaining how I understand The Bible when someone shows an interest. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to present my views. I understand how you feel about the facts & figures vs faith & feelings. I try to discuss things at whatever level a person is able to see. If someone can only see Genesis as literal then I try to discuss it as literal. If they can see it only as allegory then let's look at it as allegory. The important thing for me are the lessons that can be learned. (This looks like a chance to stick in my favorite quote) Arostotle: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it" I do know of a Messianic Rabbi who encourages participation of his congregation and a couple of churches that support the idea. I also have seen many places in the Bible where YHWH wants us to eat, drink, and make merry. I believe , If invited to celebrate a Jewish Holiday with someone I would probably jump at the chance. However, I see no obligation to do so. I heard a preacher say one time , and have adopted it. "When you take the text out of context all you're left with is the con." I would say this; If all of the books of the OT were lost forever the NT would still stand although we would have lost much of the knowledge of YHWH and some of the deeper truths that can be learned by studying them both together.
  10. Interesting ... I guess I have never looked into whether this was supported by Jewish teaching. I'll have to look into that more. For now I'll attempt to explain how we Christians see this as a messianic prophesy. The crushing of the head of the serpent is seen symbolically as the utter defeat of Satan. The bruising of the heel is seen as the cost (Yeshua's death) of the defeat. A quick google search tells me that the first mention of the protoevangelium from church fathers is by Justin Martyr (160 AD) and Irenaeus (180AD) both of whom were before the Roman takeover of the church. I didn't finish where I was going with my first post when I realized how long my post was getting. For me, sometimes a simple question leads me to elaborate extensively. I apologize if my posts are hard to get through, I can get a bit wordy. Now let me endeavor to connect my first post to the New testament and show why we (Christians) continue to hold on to the Old Testament. One of the first things I'd like say is faith. Reading of the Old Testament builds faith in YHWH. Faith that YHWH will do the things that He has said that He will do. This is supported in the New Testament by Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Seeing YHWH do (in the Old Testament) the things which He has done for His people helps to build faith in Him. Hebrews 11 stresses the importance of faith. .... By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain .... By faith Enoch was translated ....By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house .... By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed ... Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed ... These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them . You may wonder why I made such a big deal of the covenants. In the NT we (Christians) are told in Romans 8 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. In these verses we (Christians) are told that we have been adopted into Abraham's family and are heirs to the promises contained in scripture. Another reason for us not to discard the Old Testament is that it is quoted often in the New Testament. I'm a big fan of reading scripture "in context". When OT scripture is quoted in the NT I find it useful to go back and read the quoted scripture in context. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. This verse makes it clear that salvation is for the Jew as well as the nations (the Greek here actually refers to all non-Jews). Because of this Jewish scripture is important in that Jewish believers are never asked to give up their Holy Books. This leads me to another NT verse that also give us (Christians) reason not to omit studying the OT. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. This may be the most important reason for not abandoning the OT. When that was written the NT had not been canonized and therefor the verses are without doubt talking about OT scripture.
  11. I certainly don't speak for all of Christianity. My ordination with the ULC has given me the opportunity to study the Bible without having to hold to the tenets of any particular denomination. In doing so I sometime see things differently than the majority of mainstream Christianity. In making this post I may present views that other Christians disagree with. Nevertheless, since I claim Christianity as my religion I will present my views on the subject. One of the things I'd like to point out is that YHWH is a god of covenant (contract). There are multiple covenants (testaments) in the Old Testament. In my opinion it should be called the Old Testaments. Each covenant gives us a small amount of information about YHWH the elohim. The more we can learn about YHWH the more we can understand about our purpose and destiny. Without the Old Testament Christianity would not have as much of an understanding of YHWH as has been given to man thus far. One thing we need to understand about these covenants is that there are two types of covenant in the Bible. There are conditional covenants and unconditional covenants. It is important to recognize which covenants are conditional and which are not. If a covenant is conditional then it is stated in terms of if you (mankind) will do these things then YHWH will do certain other things in return. The first covenant found in Genesis is often referred to as the Edenic covenant. In the Edenic covenant (a conditional covenant) YHWH tells Adam that if he will avoid eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that He (YHWH) will grant Adam life and blessing in a garden that YHWH had planted (and mankind was to maintain), free from fear, without condemnation, in safety and comfort, and without death. Man was given dominion (authority) over the Earth. The results of mankind breaking that covenant were severe. Because mankind chose to break the covenant death (both spiritual and physical) was introduced into the very DNA of man. This was not the only repercussion of disobedience to YHWH. Man was exiled from the garden and now has to contend with the Earth to make food for himself. The ground now brings forth, not only pleasant things, but also thorns and weeds Then we come to the next covenant made after man chose to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. This is an unconditional covenant. It is a covenant of redemption. In Genesis 3:15 YHVH promises that a redeemer will come from the seed of the woman. This is sometimes referred to as the protoevangelium. Both of these testaments (covenants) are also called the Adamic covenants. Now we come to the Noahide covenant. Like the Adamic covenant, the Noahide covenant can be divided into two parts. The first part is unconditional. YHWH made a covenant with Noah to never again destroy the world with a flood because of sin. The second part is conditional and although not as clearly laid out in the Bible has been confirmed by several ancient Jewish sources (Sanhedrin 56a, 58b, 59a, Maimonides, Nahmanides ...) The conditions of this second part of the Noahide covenant requires all of mankind to observe the seven laws of Noah. In return YHVH promises all who observe these laws a place in the world to come (Olam Haba) the final reward of the righteous. Maimonides contends that these laws must be observed, not because they are moral, but rather because they come from YHWH. These laws are: (from Jewish Virtual Library) Do Not Deny God Do Not Blaspheme God Do Not Murder Do Not Engage in Incestuous, Adulterous or Homosexual Relationships. Do Not Steal Do Not Eat of a Live Animal Establish Courts/Legal System to Ensure Law Obedience Or from Chabad.org Acknowledge that there is only one G‑d who is Infinite and Supreme above all things. Do not replace that Supreme Being with finite idols, be it yourself, or other beings. This command includes such acts as prayer, study and meditation. Respect the Creator. As frustrated and angry as you may be, do not vent it by cursing your Maker. Respect human life. Every human being is an entire world. To save a life is to save that entire world. To destroy a life is to destroy an entire world. To help others live is a corollary of this principle. Respect the institution of marriage. Marriage is a most Divine act. The marriage of a man and a woman is a reflection of the oneness of G‑d and His creation. Disloyalty in marriage is an assault on that oneness. Respect the rights and property of others. Be honest in all your business dealings. By relying on G‑d rather than on our own conniving, we express our trust in Him as the Provider of Life. Respect G‑d's creatures. At first, Man was forbidden to consume meat. After the Great Flood, he was permitted - but with a warning: Do not cause unnecessary suffering to any creature. Maintain justice. Justice is G‑d's business, but we are given the charge to lay down necessary laws and enforce them whenever we can. When we right the wrongs of society, we are acting as partners in the act of sustaining the creation. All of these covenants are with all of mankind. Now we come to the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is another unconditional covenant. YHWH makes many promises to Abraham that require nothing from him. Among those promises YHVH tells Abraham that he will be the father of one specific nation and that in that nation all of humanity would be blessed. There is also a promise that he would be the father of other nations too. YHWH also told Abraham that He would bless those who bless him and curse those who curse him. He promises Abraham lands for his descendants. There are many more promises to Abraham but I realize this is starting to be a very long post so I'll stop there. This is the first example of a 'blood covenant" . Abraham, Issac, Jacob and the rest of Abrahams seed were under only the Noahide law for 400-600 years depending on how it is calculated.. Now we come to the Mosaic covenant. This is where Jewish law was established. Only the Jewish people have ever been under this law. I know many Christians say we are free from the law. In my opinion only Messianic Jews can be freed from laws that the rest of the world was never under. I'll stop here for now as I see Rev. Calli just made a post and I have been going on & on.
  12. I have to apologize to Dianna. Her post is also a very reasonable approach to looking at what history is contained in the Tanakh/Old Testament . I'd like to add a quote from Aristotle " It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. "
  13. It appears to me, at least IMO that LeopardBoy may have the most reasonable view. Although I don't agree completely, at least he sees some history in the Hebrew texts. For those who don't believe in any Deity or even those who may doubt I believe that the Tanakh/Old Testament should be looked at without the supernatural aspects. In doing so I think that, perhaps, many doubts of accuracy could be alleviated. Now I'm not saying that all of their doubts would be quelled however I do believe opinions could change.