ULCneo Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 On 10/7/2017 at 5:19 PM, cuchulain said: Outside force does not necessitate divine force. You are conflating the two. Gravity is an outside force, and I do not(nor does anyone else I know of) consider gravity to be divine. Also, the term outside is relative. For instance, light is an outside force as well, to anyone observing it. However, to the star producing the light, it is not. Id disagree with that point- the law of Gravity is quite divine, as it is impossible to explain exactly WHY gravity exists in the first place, outside the INTELLIGENT notion that its probably NOT a good idea for people to go floating off the face of the planet. (which, in some cases, I think not to be the wisest thing in the world, but there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.) Hence, Gravity is by intelligent design, outside of the extremely minute chance of the multiple coincidences that would have to exist in order for gravity to exist in the first place, if not of intelligent design. Hence, basic reasoning implies creationism, outside the one in practically infinity chance that all of these things coexist by luck and probability. Also, The term outside is not relative, rather it is contextual to the noun to which it applies. Basic English 101: A preposition CANNOT be relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULCneo Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 On 10/11/2017 at 7:52 AM, VonNoble said: By the way others react to me. von Oh, OK. So YOUR THE ONLY ONE that has a defective conscience, then? Great. That means I'm Marry Poppins perfect "in every way", by your own line of reasoning. I don't think I have to tell you how fallacious that argument is. After all, mankind has this habit of avoiding impunity to themselves at all costs, and we needn't look very far to see that acceptance by the majority does not render something kosher. Otherwise, communism invariably sets in before all is said and done, and the whole concept your trying to establish implodes on itself in short order. Fact is that there is nothing new under the sun. We all have many of the same vices, albeit in differing forms. Therefore, where you go with this is nothing more than the notion of a black pot calling a kettle silver because the black pot wants to see itself as being silver, even though both objects, are in fact black- whereas Christianity teaches that in fact, that we are all black pots to begin with, thus avoiding the logical problem you impart to your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonNoble Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 27 minutes ago, ULCneo said: Oh, OK. So YOUR THE ONLY ONE that has a defective conscience, then? Great. That means I'm Marry Poppins perfect "in every way", by your own line of reasoning. I don't think I have to tell you how fallacious that argument is. After all, mankind has this habit of avoiding impunity to themselves at all costs, and we needn't look very far to see that acceptance by the majority does not render something kosher. Otherwise, communism invariably sets in before all is said and done, and the whole concept your trying to establish implodes on itself in short order. Fact is that there is nothing new under the sun. We all have many of the same vices, albeit in differing forms. Therefore, where you go with this is nothing more than the notion of a black pot calling a kettle silver because the black pot wants to see itself as being silver, even though both objects, are in fact black- whereas Christianity teaches that in fact, that we are all black pots to begin with, thus avoiding the logical problem you impart to your argument. I am pretty okay with the integrity of my life. My parents raised me to look for good and nuture it in myself and others. I think that is also true of Christianity. Spirituality can can be as paradoxical as any other facet of humanity. Strangers have repeadly died helping ...even enemies. No logic there. But plenty of integrity. von Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, ULCneo said: Id disagree with that point- the law of Gravity is quite divine, as it is impossible to explain exactly WHY gravity exists in the first place, outside the INTELLIGENT notion that its probably NOT a good idea for people to go floating off the face of the planet. (which, in some cases, I think not to be the wisest thing in the world, but there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom.) Hence, Gravity is by intelligent design, outside of the extremely minute chance of the multiple coincidences that would have to exist in order for gravity to exist in the first place, if not of intelligent design. Hence, basic reasoning implies creationism, outside the one in practically infinity chance that all of these things coexist by luck and probability. Also, The term outside is not relative, rather it is contextual to the noun to which it applies. Basic English 101: A preposition CANNOT be relative. because you cant explain it, it must be God? that's poor logic, because as we explain things your God shrinks.. not knowing something doesn't mean insert random answer, it means find the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted October 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ULCneo said: Basic English 101: A preposition CANNOT be relative. The "outside" in "outside force" is an adjective, not a preposition. And it is relative. Edited October 17, 2017 by mererdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 when all else fails attack the grammar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 12 hours ago, cuchulain said: when all else fails attack the grammar... You forgot to capitalize. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULCneo Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) On 10/17/2017 at 4:54 PM, mererdog said: The "outside" in "outside force" is an adjective, not a preposition. And it is relative. No its not- Its a preposition, and the word "force" is the object of the preposition. There's no such thing as a "relative" preposition. Any variation of the words In, out, or on are not adjectives- as adjectives in these settings modify the object of the preposition, not the preposition directly. (i.e. your either outside or inside, there's no "qualification" of outside.) Consider the following expressions (hint, the adjectives are underlined the prepositions are bold face): Called out of the meeting married to him is better for your Waited Outside the door The general rule (with a number of exceptions, usually related to tense.) is that if you can stick the word "the" in the middle of the two words, the word immediately before "the" is ALWAYS a preposition, and the word following is usually the object of the preposition. This is because the word "the" is an article adjective, and an adjective can never properly modify a preposition, but may only modify the object of the preposition or else another noun, by definition. Edited October 19, 2017 by ULCneo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Yep. Grammar trolling is what it has devolved into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted October 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, ULCneo said: No its not- Its a preposition, The following are the definitions given by Google- "noun ˈoutsīd/ 1. the external side or surface of something. "record the date on the outside of the file" synonyms: outer/external surface, exterior, outer side/layer, case, skin, shell, covering, facade "the outside of the building" adjective ˈoutsīd/ 1. situated on or near the exterior or external surface of something. "put the outside lights on" synonyms: exterior, external, outer, outdoor, out-of-doors "outside lights" 2. not belonging to or coming from within a particular group. "I have some outside help" synonyms: independent, hired, temporary, freelance, casual, external, extramural "outside contractors" preposition & adverb outˈsīd/ 1. situated or moving beyond the boundaries or confines of. "there was a boy outside the door" synonyms: outdoors, out of doors, al fresco "they went outside" 2. beyond the limits or scope of. "the high cost of shipping has put it outside their price range" The "outside" in "outside force" is the same as the "outside" in "outside help" which is the example given for the second adjective definition. Edited October 19, 2017 by mererdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ULCneo Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 6 hours ago, mererdog said: The following are the definitions given by Google- "noun ˈoutsīd/ 1. the external side or surface of something. "record the date on the outside of the file" synonyms: outer/external surface, exterior, outer side/layer, case, skin, shell, covering, facade "the outside of the building" adjective ˈoutsīd/ 1. situated on or near the exterior or external surface of something. "put the outside lights on" synonyms: exterior, external, outer, outdoor, out-of-doors "outside lights" 2. not belonging to or coming from within a particular group. "I have some outside help" synonyms: independent, hired, temporary, freelance, casual, external, extramural "outside contractors" preposition & adverb outˈsīd/ 1. situated or moving beyond the boundaries or confines of. "there was a boy outside the door" synonyms: outdoors, out of doors, al fresco "they went outside" 2. beyond the limits or scope of. "the high cost of shipping has put it outside their price range" The "outside" in "outside force" is the same as the "outside" in "outside help" which is the example given for the second adjective definition. Hate to break it to you, but in this case Google is WRONG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 8 hours ago, cuchulain said: Yep. Grammar trolling is what it has devolved into. Surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Songster Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 On 2/8/2017 at 2:08 AM, Dan56 said: But your pacifism doesn't prevent you from being anyone's victim... I'm a pacifist in the sense that I don't look to create enemies, but my pacifism ends when their fist meets my face, then my temper takes over (self-defense). Really? For one so well versed in the words of the Christ, you repeatedly appear to prefer to not only ignore His teachings, but seem to revel in doing the opposite of His will. Maybe you skipped Matt. 5..... In His sermon on the mount, He presented the world with words of wisdom and encouragement and advised us to refrain from the very human temptation to repay evil with evil. When pressed into service to carry a burden for a mile, are we not directed to carry it two? When stuck in violence on one cheek, are we not instructed to turn the other? Are we not counseled to forgive our enemies? Are we not admonished to live our lives in such a manner that our example may be as a light to guide others so that they may also give glory to God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Songster said: Really? For one so well versed in the words of the Christ, you repeatedly appear to prefer to not only ignore His teachings, but seem to revel in doing the opposite of His will. Maybe you skipped Matt. 5..... In His sermon on the mount, He presented the world with words of wisdom and encouragement and advised us to refrain from the very human temptation to repay evil with evil. When pressed into service to carry a burden for a mile, are we not directed to carry it two? When stuck in violence on one cheek, are we not instructed to turn the other? Are we not counseled to forgive our enemies? Are we not admonished to live our lives in such a manner that our example may be as a light to guide others so that they may also give glory to God? Lets just say that I don't interpret the teachings of Christ as pacifism. Turning the other cheek means not to return insult for insult in retaliation, that is tantamount to embracing evil by taking personal revenge for being insulted. Jesus denounced the Pharisees who attacked him and objected when he was struck by one of the officers of the high priest. He also advised his disciples to take measures to defend themselves. all of which conflict with the idea that Jesus was a pacifist. If we let everyone take advantage of us. turning the other cheek would become an encouragement for evil. I don't believe that is what Jesus had in mind, and it also conflicts with the law, which Jesus said he was not changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Songster Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Dan56 said: Lets just say that I don't interpret the teachings of Christ as pacifism. Turning the other cheek means not to return insult for insult in retaliation, that is tantamount to embracing evil by taking personal revenge for being insulted. Jesus denounced the Pharisees who attacked him and objected when he was struck by one of the officers of the high priest. He also advised his disciples to take measures to defend themselves. all of which conflict with the idea that Jesus was a pacifist. If we let everyone take advantage of us. turning the other cheek would become an encouragement for evil. I don't believe that is what Jesus had in mind, and it also conflicts with the law, which Jesus said he was not changing. If that's what you got from the reading, either you have a reading comprehension problem or you've intentionally distorted the words to fit what you want them to say. God save the world from "Christians " like you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted October 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 39 minutes ago, Songster said: If that's what you got from the reading, either you have a reading comprehension problem or you've intentionally distorted the words to fit what you want them to say. The Bible is an extremely complex work and, on a literal level, it is extremely self-contradictory. It is very easy for two honest and intelligent people to read it and walk away with very different understandings of its meaning. With almost any other book, those interpretational differences would just be seen as an interesting window into the different ways we process nonliteral infirmation. But Biblical interpretation differences tend to get treated like personal insults. So when I tell someone that the Sermon on the Mount reads like a pacifist manifesto, nine times oit of ten they react as if I told them their grandfather was a Nazi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Songster said: If that's what you got from the reading, either you have a reading comprehension problem or you've intentionally distorted the words to fit what you want them to say. God save the world from "Christians " like you... Sweet.... If all Christians were extreme pacifist, there probably wouldn't be any Christians.. Perhaps you missed the Old Testament? 1. God commanded Israel to go to war, and to kill. 2. God never changes morally. 3. Jesus is God. 4. Extreme pacifism forces a person to reject violence for any reason. 5. It is impossible to support killing and be an extreme pacifist Ergo, Jesus was not an extreme pacifist Do you really think that if someone was killing Mary, Jesus would have been content to sit by and watch his mother be murdered? I don't, in fact I'd interpret that as condoning evil (sin), but stopping it would be overcoming evil with good. Those who are kind to the cruel, will be cruel to the kind.. Matthew 5 was an explanation of the spirit of the law, turning the other cheek was an idiom that meant not to return evil for evil, but to turn away, not perpetuate a problem by letting an offense go when possible, and not retaliating every time your offended. I believe vengeance is God's, but protection and self-preservation is ours. That's my interpretation.. To assert that I'm distorting words is to suggest I'm just conveniently twisting scripture to fit what I want it to say, which is why I haven't plucked out an offensive eye or cut off my right arm. Edited October 20, 2017 by Dan56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Dan56 said: Sweet.... If all Christians were extreme pacifist, there probably wouldn't be any Christians.. Perhaps you missed the Old Testament? 1. God commanded Israel to go to war, and to kill. 2. God never changes morally. 3. Jesus is God. 4. Extreme pacifism forces a person to reject violence for any reason. 5. It is impossible to support killing and be an extreme pacifist Ergo, Jesus was not an extreme pacifist Do you really think that if someone was killing Mary, Jesus would have been content to sit by and watch his mother be murdered? I don't, in fact I'd interpret that as condoning evil (sin), but stopping it would be overcoming evil with good. Those who are kind to the cruel, will be cruel to the kind.. Matthew 5 was an explanation of the spirit of the law, turning the other cheek was an idiom that meant not to return evil for evil, but to turn away, not perpetuate a problem by letting an offense go when possible, and not retaliating every time your offended. I believe vengeance is God's, but protection and self-preservation is ours. That's my interpretation.. To assert that I'm distorting words is to suggest I'm just conveniently twisting scripture to fit what I want it to say, which is why I haven't plucked out an offensive eye or cut off my right arm. It simplifies things to open a Bible and see what it actually says. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations No. Jesus was not a pacifist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted October 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) On 10/20/2017 at 3:18 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: It simplifies things to open a Bible and see what it actually says. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations No. Jesus was not a pacifist. The context of the passage makes it fairly clear that the meaning is not literal. In the scene in question, Jesus is sending people out to preach in a dangerous world and warning them that they will make a lot of enemies by doing it. The actual instructions to his followers are extremely pacifist in nature, yet he warns that others will be violent, and gives assurances that the cause is worth suffering and dying for. After all, what does that whole "take up your cross" thing mean , if not to accept unjust persecution, as opposed to avoiding it or fighting it? Edited October 22, 2017 by mererdog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Dave Posted October 22, 2017 Report Share Posted October 22, 2017 Luke 22:35-36 King James Version (KJV) 35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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