Beheaded For Witchcraft And Sorcery

[cuchulain]

What I am saying is if God is all powerful, there is no power left over for anyone else, therefor nobody else has any power to alter the course of events. It seems built into the definition for me. In order to be all powerful, God must by definition have ALL the power, right? Leaving none for anyone else? And will wouldn't come into it at all, because will is a form of power.

[Dan56]

I still think that it is barbaric to kill someone who is a witch just because you has chosen another religion. It is just sick and another example of lengths some will go to justify the unjustifiable of behaviours.

I don't think the penalty was for choosing another religion, but for trying to defile the one your in... In other words, if you want to be a witch, then go be a witch, but don't go into the temple of God and practice witchcraft. God's intent was to keep his people separated from the heathens surrounding them. He couldn't preserve them if he allowed Baal worship. That's why there were strict penalties for practicing idolatry among his people, God set them aside for a purpose, and it wasn't to be polluted with false gods. jmo

You cannot have it both ways. If your God did not create sin, then He is not the source or everything. He is not all powerful and omni this or that. If anything can exist outside your God, then he cannot be ALL.

In a sense, you are right.. By extension, everything that exist emanated from God, but God is not the direct source of everything that is made. That may sound like double talk, but what I mean is that God did not create cars or airplanes, they exist because we made them. If I chop down a tree and use it for firewood, did I start the fire in my fireplace, or did God? God created possibilities which allow choice, but sin cannot exist until we choose it, anymore than a car can exist until we make it. God created everything, but he didn't invent everything.

[Pete]

Dan considering what has happened over the years it does not appear to me God preserved anyone. Tell me a time when all was wonderful and not suffering persecution. The term on witchcraft is not described in the bible. It just said kill them. I cannot imagine a Witch would want to enter the temple and neither would I.

[Darren Rogers]

The shame is, I'm pretty sure that even on this board we couldn't get eveyone to agree with this...

"The Earth speaks in many languages, but only one voice. The language is not Cantonese, or English, or French, or Spanish or Farsi. It speaks in the language of hope; It speaks in the language of trust; It speaks in the language of strength, and the language of compassion. It is the language of the heart and the language of the soul. But always, it is the same voice. It is the voice of our ancestors, speaking through us, And the voice of our inheritors, waiting to be born. It is the small, still voice that says: We are one. No matter the blood; No matter the skin; No matter the country; No matter the Continent; We are one. No matter the pain; No matter the darkness; No matter the loss; No matter the fear; We are one. Here, gathered together in common cause. we agree to recognize this singular truth, and this singular rule: That we must be kind to one another, because each voice enriches us and ennobles us, and each voice lost diminishes us. We are the voice of the Universe, the soul of creation, the fire that will light the way to a better future. We are one."

paraphrased from J. Michael Straczynski (1998)

https://youtu.be/g4KVcV_rMwY

[panpareil]

I just wonder among the members here who live in a society with Christians, do you recall the last time any beheaded or otherwise killed a witch. I would guess the same community beheaded Christians as well.

[Pete]

It is very rare but there has been incidents in the UK when some African fundamentalists have tried to kill their offspring because they are a witch or processed by spirits etc.

It can happen in the states too:- http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2014/10/christian-community-remains-silent-as-christian-zealot-attempts-to-behead-a-witch/

It has to be said that these persons would be seen as quite mad by the mainstream Christian communities.

I guess this conversation is more about those who justify the bible or word of God which asks for such actions rather than those who would actually do it. In truth despite the wording most religious groups do not condone or associate with such behaviours.

However this is not true of history,.

Mostly nowadays it is in isolated Muslim groups. Again these are not condoned by most of the religion.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Pete

[cuchulain]

I have been persecuted by Christians for being Pagan. The people in question attended the Catholic school across the street from where I lived, made a wrongful accusation against me and later admitted it was because I had a pagan bumper sticker. They told the prosecutor it was because their teacher put them up to it. The prosecutor, even having this information, refused to drop the charges. On the other hand, I have never heard of a pagan making wrongful accusations against a Christian for having a Christian bumber sticker. This is Illinois, by the way, in case anyone wondered where at in the United States. The people made a complaint against me to the police, which was picked up by the prosecutor and I had to go to court. Nothing was done against them, nothing was done to the Catholic school, the teacher the principle, anything. I had to go to court for something I didn't do, because Christians thought that I was evil. Guess they never heard of not bearing false witness. The case was dismissed because the witnesses failed to appear in court. It wasn't dismissed due to a lack of evidence, or anything like that. The arrest sits on my record, because the witnesses failed to appear, because the prosecutor when presented with testimony to the actual facts failed to drop the charges.

I know this doesn't rank with beheading, but persecution is there nonetheless. Pretending that it doesn't exist in the United States is kind of silly. As far as Christians being persecuted historically, Pan, I agree. I think if you go back far enough in ANY groups history, they were probably persecuted at some point. Still, doesn't make it right to keep it up now, does it? Two wrongs don't make a right? Aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek, and all that? Just my opinion, of course, about the two wrongs not making it right.

[Pete]

Now we are on a different position from that of beheading. I know that there is persecution for anyone who differs with fanatics because I have received some hostile behaviour when I first said I felt the persecution of Gay people was wrong. It was horrible. .

[Dan56]

If Jesus supported persecuting people who were different from traditional beliefs, he would have been responsible for his own persecution, instead of the fanatics who persecuted him and demanded his life. Jesus never force fed his teachings onto others, he never held a captive audience, demanded that everyone follow his teachings, or condemned those who didn't. Christians who do those things aren't following the example of he whom they claim to believe. Its only the self-righteous that judge others in a condeming fashion, but its not something that Christ taught his disciples to do.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Dan56

[Key]

If Jesus supported persecuting people who were different from traditional beliefs, he would have been responsible for his own persecution, instead of the fanatics who persecuted him and demanded his life. Jesus never force fed his teachings onto others, he never held a captive audience, demanded that everyone follow his teachings, or condemned those who didn't. Christians who do those things aren't following the example of he whom they claim to believe. Its only the self-righteous that judge others in a condeming fashion, but its not something that Christ taught his disciples to do.

Ideally, yes, you are correct. Unfortunately, misinterpretations and assumptions will always seem to exist within established organized religions simply because some followers feel a sense of entitlement or self righteousness over others in their beliefs.

[mererdog]

Ideally, yes, you are correct. Unfortunately, misinterpretations and assumptions will always seem to exist within established organized religions simply because some followers feel a sense of entitlement or self righteousness over others in their beliefs.

It's not really a religion thing, though. It's a people thing. People feel justified persecuting others because of perceived superiority in everything from political affiliation to taste in shoes. And they will go to great lengths to come up with rationalizations that somehow manage to paint them as a hero for doing it. Some hurt the innocent under the guise of protecting everyone from witches, and some hurt the innocent under the guise of protecting witches from Christians... Edited August 10, 2015 by mererdog

[Pete]

I agree with Meredog. How does it affect anyone else if I believe in evolution, that the bible is flawed, or that Gay people have a right to be themselves. However, try saying that in most fundamental churches and out comes the inquisition.

[mererdog]

However, try saying that in most fundamental churches and out comes the inquisition.

But why would I say those things in a fundamentalist church? Believing those things means a fundamentalist church is not the place for me. I assume that if I preach racial tolerance at a Klan rally, it would not be received well, so I don't go to Klan rallies.

[Pete]

I was brought up in a fundamental faith. The problem is once you start to think for yourself your whole world and those you know gets turned upside down. I want to think and they want to mould me. The whole thing is not open to free thought and I feel sorry for anyone who goes through what I went through, Sure if you join today and you know this is not what you think then I think your asking for problems. I was brought up and nurtured to trust it all and it tears to pull apart and the reception is not good. I do not care today but I remember what it felt like. Even today among my siblings it has caused problems with each pulling in different ways. Some for fundamentalism and some away. Try saying you do not agree when your getting preached at and I think you will know what it means to get out of the indoctrination. The bible says it will tear families apart and they walk away justified and I walk away bruised because I still love them despite my disagreement.

I think you have to be in it to know what its like to live it.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Pete

[Brother Kaman]

Ideally, yes, you are correct. Unfortunately, misinterpretations and assumptions will always seem to exist within established organized religions simply because some followers feel a sense of entitlement or self righteousness over others in their beliefs.

As they do in all religions.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I still think that it is barbaric to kill someone who is a witch just because you has chosen another religion. It is just sick and another example of lengths some will go to justify the unjustifiable of behaviours.

Or is said to be a "witch." Not quite the same thing. In Africa, this probably means an "Anamist." Or it could be a Christian with an enemy. Being accused of "witchcraft" doesn't seem that difficult.

I have been persecuted by Christians for being Pagan. The people in question attended the Catholic school across the street from where I lived, made a wrongful accusation against me and later admitted it was because I had a pagan bumper sticker. They told the prosecutor it was because their teacher put them up to it. The prosecutor, even having this information, refused to drop the charges. On the other hand, I have never heard of a pagan making wrongful accusations against a Christian for having a Christian bumber sticker. This is Illinois, by the way, in case anyone wondered where at in the United States. The people made a complaint against me to the police, which was picked up by the prosecutor and I had to go to court. Nothing was done against them, nothing was done to the Catholic school, the teacher the principle, anything. I had to go to court for something I didn't do, because Christians thought that I was evil. Guess they never heard of not bearing false witness. The case was dismissed because the witnesses failed to appear in court. It wasn't dismissed due to a lack of evidence, or anything like that. The arrest sits on my record, because the witnesses failed to appear, because the prosecutor when presented with testimony to the actual facts failed to drop the charges.

I know this doesn't rank with beheading, but persecution is there nonetheless. Pretending that it doesn't exist in the United States is kind of silly. As far as Christians being persecuted historically, Pan, I agree. I think if you go back far enough in ANY groups history, they were probably persecuted at some point. Still, doesn't make it right to keep it up now, does it? Two wrongs don't make a right? Aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek, and all that? Just my opinion, of course, about the two wrongs not making it right.

You had a lesson in "Christian Love." I'm glad you survived it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I agree with Meredog. How does it affect anyone else if I believe in evolution, that the bible is flawed, or that Gay people have a right to be themselves. However, try saying that in most fundamental churches and out comes the inquisition.

The Inquisition comes out because they are afraid. They think you will lead them to Perdition.

[Pete]

I think it more like questioning things they cannot stand. So much of the average service is given over to affirming and asserting a set of beliefs. It could be the creed, the hymns, the prayers, the sermon etc etc. They are designed to inspire conformity, There is no room for questioning any of it.

[mererdog]

I think you have to be in it to know what its like to live it.

The same is equally true of each individuals life. Some get ostracized over leaving a hometown, some over opting out of a family business, some for picking the "wrong" side in a war or a political contest. Families often do not tolerate independent decision making well. I think the religion is more a symptom than a cause. The Klan is racist because it's members are racist- not the other way around. Make sense? Edited August 10, 2015 by mererdog

[Atwater Vitki]

I think it more like questioning things they cannot stand. So much of the average service is given over to affirming and asserting a set of beliefs. It could be the creed, the hymns, the prayers, the sermon etc etc. They are designed to inspire conformity, There is no room for questioning any of it.

I think this is why many have a difficult separating the dislike of certain people versus the sanctions and intent of any given religion. It is also why I've said many times I do not detest the Bible, only some of the people who claim they believe in it's every word being the absolute word of God. If it is, then why was it written by the hand of man?

Having been persecuted myself for my beliefs (full story here) I hate intolerance. Opinions don't bother me so much but when people claim to be the authority in things they assuredly are not knowledgeable, coerce beliefs against something they personally don't like, it really drives me crazy.

Some of us really don't want to conform or see the need for it, but that doesn't mean we're evil, out for anarchy or totalitarianism. We rebel against conformity and nothing else as even our rebel cause may change from time to time.

Blessings of Peace,