Why We Should Not Decide Other People's Labels For Them

[Raincloud]

It is my belief, that whilst we can study other people's religions and faiths that aren't our own, we have no right to police what those people do in their religion or... more important to this topic, what they decide to call themselves.

As long as my neighbour obeys the laws of the land, I should have no official say in his religion or faith or labels.

For example I should not tell Joe down the street that he's not a real Christian because he's a member of a certain church that doesn't practice what I believe is true.

You can agree to disagree with each other.

But when I start getting up in his face demanding that he stop calling himself a Christian, then I have crossed a huge boundary.

There is a worrying trend in the pagan community where people are saying uninitiated Wiccan aren't real Wiccans.

What is your opinion of this concept in general?

[Fawzo]

People that need to label everything have control issues. It is an external sign of fear and insecurity. It is funny to me since all labels are pseudo representations of the experiences and emotions they are trying to convey to others.

Silly humans. People who are rabid about such labeling should seek help or learn to stop on their own in my opinion.

[Atwater Vitki]

It is my belief, that whilst we can study other people's religions and faiths that aren't our own, we have no right to police what those people do in their religion or... more important to this topic, what they decide to call themselves.....

There is a worrying trend in the pagan community where people are saying uninitiated Wiccan aren't real Wiccans.

What is your opinion of this concept in general?

...and until you've gone through the Ninth Door of Midgaard, you're not a Erulian either! ...reached the 33rd Level of Initiate you're not a Mason! ...entered the...oh, I sidetrack....

You are absolutely correct Raincloud, it is very worrying that groups seem to judge and condemn what they do not understand. The only reasons I can think of is fear and jealousy. Fear in that someone new might be better, know more, be better at...than someone entrenched in the particular belief. Jealousy that someone else may not have had to struggle through curriculum or educating themselves as they did.

This is why I went full circle back to the original group that introduced me to Runic Divination some 40 years ago..The Loyal Order of EAUQs or Erulian, Astral, Universalist Questers which covers runic divination, astral or cosmic beliefs and Universalist "God/Christian" understanding. A group formed by several older men in the late 1940's of which a *Biker/Runester and Universalist Pastor were the founding members...believe it or not, twin brothers.

While one went to seminary the other found the biker lifestyle more appealing, while one studied "God" and the Christ, the other the Occult and debauchery. Their close friends became astrophysicists, policemen and lawyers.

During WWII everyone of these fellows served our country in both the European and Pacific Theatres, one of the brothers and another fella receiving Purple Hearts and all were decorated for their convictions to duty. One brother continued to serve as Chaplain during Korea and upon coming home and getting together at a poker game between this group of friends, formed the Order of EAUQs...the Chaplain was father to my high school art teacher where I got my first exposure to the Order and eventually where I became a Fellow as well as Vitki (Rune Priest) of the US and Intl. Rune-Gilds.

The only reason for "history lesson" here is the twin brothers...here were two men, rough and tumble fellas with friends in top professions that all had a passion for our country, cards, "God" (in His many forms) and standing up for what was right. The bio of the EAUQs states it was the differences between the "God fearing, righteous brother" and the "border line criminal, biker bro" both having an unequivocal sense of justice, tolerance for other's beliefs that formed the ideology of the group...such different, even opposite, views of the world around them yet side by side one could not tell who was who, which was which by the "bodily shell" on the outside.

Turn that around with all the different shapes and forms of the human, yet identical hearts for what's right and the whole concept came together.

Any group or club is most certainly allowed to have their rules and regs for what constitutes a "member" or "initiate" into their club, no problem at all. It is then left up to individuals that want to join whether or not they wish to go through whatever initiation, training or what-have-you to be a part of that group.

It's only when that particular group starts telling others what is "right" or "official" there becomes a problem...Westboro Baptist comes to mind claiming they are the only "real Christians" and cults like Jonestown, Charlie Manson, Heaven's Gate... etc etc

I also think that the condemnation and over the top "opinions" of those that wish to control and sway beliefs is why there are so many individual followers in the Pagan community, studying their own beliefs and thoughts on what they think is right. And I don't blame them a bit.

Blessings of Peace,

Al

* (Pasadena MC)

[Pete]

I seem to get this often. I am told I am not a Christian because I do not follow the path the same way as others. Always find this insulting, arrogant, controlling and disrespectful. It seems to dismiss the faith that I have as having no consequence because it does not follow to the letter that view of others.

I do believe that people should not dictate the faith of others, but I also think there are times when I think one should. For example, I am happy for Westboro to worship as they feel but I do feel they should not be picking funerals of Soldiers or others who have differing view to themselves. I also would feel I would need to intervene if I discovered a suicide cult or there was child abuse going on.

Most times when someone tells me that they have a differing faith I wonder what I can learn from them but pull away when I am expected to follow their lead because they feel I should.

[Kingfisher]

I reckon you could call this "my" opinion. {01:38:20 -

is on Bodhicitta and relationships.}

"Dear eternal Father, there is much unrest and disunity in the world. Help us to embrace each other and live in peace and harmony in the pagan way. Dear eternal Mother, we realize there are many different traditions of faith. Help us to see past the difference and unite as one family in total harmony and love. So Mote It Be"

[Pete]

I reckon you could call this "my" opinion. {01:38:20 -

is on Bodhicitta and relationships.}

"Dear eternal Father, there is much unrest and disunity in the world. Help us to embrace each other and live in peace and harmony in the pagan way. Dear eternal Mother, we realize there are many different traditions of faith. Help us to see past the difference and unite as one family in total harmony and love. So Mote It Be"

I like that. Thanks Kingfisher.

[Dan56]

For example I should not tell Joe down the street that he's not a real Christian because he's a member of a certain church that doesn't practice what I believe is true.

You can agree to disagree with each other.

What is your opinion of this concept in general?

Of course, everyone is free to believe what they want, and they are free to label themselves as they please. But I can't in good conscience call a duck an eagle. In your example, if Joe rejected the resurrection, sacrifice, and salvation of Christ, then I don't think its wrong for me to think of him as a non-Christian. No need for me to confront him on the issue, but no need to accept what he says either. There was a reason that Jesus often called the Pharisees hypocrites, they professed one thing but walked a different path.

[Pete]

Of course, everyone is free to believe what they want, and they are free to label themselves as they please. But I can't in good conscience call a duck an eagle. In your example, if Joe rejected the resurrection, sacrifice, and salvation of Christ, then I don't think its wrong for me to think of him as a non-Christian. No need for me to confront him on the issue, but no need to accept what he says either. There was a reason that Jesus often called the Pharisees hypocrites, they professed one thing but walked a different path.

True I think one does not have to accept the definition another applies to their faith but I believe one needs to have respect for the reason that they use the term as much as the reason you use the term. It is easy to pick fault in another who is different from your own basically because they are different from your own and your using your own yardstick to measure them by.

Just as easy as you can say a person is not a Christian because they do not believe in an inerrant bible it is easy to reverse that process in the eyes of another.

An inerrant bible believer could also be called a biblicist because they place the words of the author above the overall moral lessons of the bible. They could be called a follower of Paulianity because they place the words of Paul often above the words of Jesus. They could be called and idolator because they place the words written by man to the status of the divine words of God. It could go on but I think you can get the message.

I am not trying to call you names here but in the eyes of another we can all be seen differently and dismissing someone's faith because it differs from ones own can often overlook the strength of faith they have which may even be stronger than ones own if they were able to be measured. I therefore let God be the measurer rather than that of the viewpoint of another. Hence, even though we differ in our Christianity I have not called you not a Christian..

[Awakener]

"Acceptance" is often confused with "approval". I have learned that I do not need (nor desire) to approve of that which does not resonate with me. In fact, other peoples views and beliefs do not require my approval or disapproval to validate or invalidate them. When I look at my own beliefs as a mallable, amendable and expanding set, and I do, then I can more easily accept the beliefs of others, even when they dont jive with mine, as a growing and viable path to thier own enlightenment. Even when a person or persons belief system is seemingly rigid or set in stone it is my responsibility only to accept them for where they are on thier journey.

Insofar as the topic lead: From my point of view is has become increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to pigeon hole individuals into neatly labled religious, spiritual, political, philosophical or scientifical boxes. As overall global consciousness shifts and expands, the lines blur, and the boxes begin to overlap more and more as we begin (continue) to see each others similarities and accept our differences.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

In general, I find that the people who have all the answers, don't know as much as they think they do -- and much of it is mistaken.

[Fawzo]

"Acceptance" is often confused with "approval". I have learned that I do not need (nor desire) to approve of that which does not resonate with me. In fact, other peoples views and beliefs do not require my approval or disapproval to validate or invalidate them. When I look at my own beliefs as a mallable, amendable and expanding set, and I do, then I can more easily accept the beliefs of others, even when they dont jive with mine, as a growing and viable path to thier own enlightenment. Even when a person or persons belief system is seemingly rigid or set in stone it is my responsibility only to accept them for where they are on thier journey.

Insofar as the topic lead: From my point of view is has become increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to pigeon hole individuals into neatly labled religious, spiritual, political, philosophical or scientifical boxes. As overall global consciousness shifts and expands, the lines blur, and the boxes begin to overlap more and more as we begin (continue) to see each others similarities and accept our differences.

Welcome to the forum Awakener.

[emalpaiz]

I understand that every person should have the freedom to believe as they want and to call themselves as they understand that they should be called.

Hermano Luis

[cuchulain]

I like being told I am not a druid because they were all wiped out.

[Belyn Mawr]

Yes, I like being told that I can't be a (traditional) Witch because I was not initiated into a 2000 year old secret family practice by my grandmother or aunt in her kitchen or basement. I also like being told that I can't describe my practice as "Welsh" Witchcraft because I was not born in or do not live in modern Wales, although that is from whence my ancestors came. And of course "Witches aren't real," and "All Witches are Satanic."

Edited December 31, 2013 by BelynMawr

[Fawzo]

Yes, I like being told that I can't be a (traditional) Witch because I was not initiated into a 2000 year old secret family practice by my grandmother or aunt in her kitchen or basement. I also like being told that I can't describe my practice as "Welsh" Witchcraft because I was not born in or do not live in modern Wales, although that is from whence my ancestors came. And of course "Witches aren't real," and "All Witches are Satanic."

I guess you have some labels of your own for those folks who claim such

[Pete]

Yes, I like being told that I can't be a (traditional) Witch because I was not initiated into a 2000 year old secret family practice by my grandmother or aunt in her kitchen or basement. I also like being told that I can't describe my practice as "Welsh" Witchcraft because I was not born in or do not live in modern Wales, although that is from whence my ancestors came. And of course "Witches aren't real," and "All Witches are Satanic."

You are were heart is my friend. blwydden newydd dda

[Belyn Mawr]

Hi Fawzo,

I do indeed have labels for them, and I would like to apply them with the adhesive side directly to their foreheads (Not really though, you get used to it and look at the source.)

Hi Pete,

Thank you, and Happy New Year to you as well

[Fawzo]

I just thought of a question considering labeling things.

Once we label something have we lessened our spiritual connection with that thing and in our minds attempt to define it making it less than what it truly encompasses?

Yet labeling is such a crucial part of survival?

Quite the dilemma for those attempting to walk a spiritual path I would think.

[toktu]

From my point of view when we place labels on others we are judging them. I am not perfect nor do I claim to be. And I do practice "turn the other cheek" And whole heartedly believe in "judge not least ye be judged". I tend to remember these when others judge me.

I was not always like this. Until I realized that if every one believed in Jesus' teachings the same way, then they all would be of the same denomination. The same applies for Buddhism and Muslims and every other belief structure on this earth and in the cosmos.

( I think I just may have channeled Hensley ) Before I even knew of him.

I also believe we need to define ourselves first before all others. And I do not think I will define myself in this life time. If I can not define myself, how can I define some one else?

Blessing of Peace

[Brother Kaman]

We label people all the time, often within minutes of meeting them just as we make judgements about them. The trick is to keep it to yourself.