Pagan Origin Of Christmas

[Bro. Hex]

I'm glad you are still here Dan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostara

Me too.

[nealocampo]

Despite being a Christian, I fundamentally agree with Halloween, Easter, and Christmas originating from Pagan roots. Ishtar especially bothers me, I believe the KJV bible incorrectly translated Passover as Easter (Ishtar). In Acts 12:4, the Greek word "pascha" is Passover. this word (pascha) appears twenty-nine times in the new testament, and twenty-eight of those times the word is rendered "Passover". The NIV corrected the error. The actual birth of Christ was actually between Sept 24 and 29th, although Yeshua was conceived on Dec 25th. JMO

Yes! The origin of Easter did not begin with Yeshua. There were many celebration like this even before Jesus Christ/ Yeshua was supposedly born. This celebration has its roots in ancient and pagan mystery religions. In other words, Christianity had a pagan origin. And it’s not original at all except for one thing. The ancient pagan people did not think of the story of their dying and resurrecting God to be a real person, but was accepted by them as a myth or symbol.

Christianity, however, insisted that Yeshua actually lived as a real and historical person, and Christian theologians took laborious and meticulous pains to prove his historical existence. And I believe in that.

What we Jewish Christ Followers don't believe is that the Celebration of Easter. Easter is not found in the Bible and Easter was all started from the tale of Nimrod’s wife who was ascended into heaven and the God’s sent her back to earth in a giant egg. The egg landed in the Euphrates river, then the egg broke open and out came the bare breasted goddess of sexual desire, Easter or Ostara.

Why don’t we know this? Emperor Constantine abolished all the Jewish Traditions and adopted the celebrations of Pagan like Christmas(Yule), Easter(Ostara), and Samhain (Halloween or All saints dAY) He did everything in its mighty power to prevent the truth from coming out. It systematically and mercilessly destroyed and eradicated all teachings and literature of pagan origin.

Passover or Pesach is the real holiday that Christ follower must be celebrated not Easter since Christ himself followed it before He died and nailed in the execution stake. In Exodus 12:24 God said that, "You are to observe this as law, you and your descendants forever" but why dont most of us keep and observe this. Remember Easter is not the same as Pesach. Easter is all about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ (for some Christians which is a wrong belief) while Pesach is about passing over of God in Egypt!

Edited October 18, 2012 by nealocampo

[nealocampo]

Personally, I look at these holidays as part of the uniquely Gregorian heritage Christians have. In sending Saint Augustine of Canterbury to England to convert the pagans there, Pope Gregory the Great showed. imho, a very progressive and tolerant attitude in converting the peoples. Rather than destroy the old ways entirely, he wanted to reform them, keep what was good, and incorporate them into the new Christian lives of the converts. He said, "Do not destroy pagan temples, but convert them to Christian use so that the people will feel more comfortable coming there...If the people insist on sacrificing an animal, let them do it – just so long as they sacrifice it to God.” I see this as a very forward thinking idea for his time.

For me, mixing Hebrew God's instructions to Pagan customs is a BIG NO, NO. Why dont they just continue to follow the original Feast of the Hebrews?

Thus, following that format, the meaning of Easter is changed to the day celebrating Our Lord's glorious Resurrection, Saturnalia becomes Christmas, Samhain becomes All Hallow's Eve, and on and on. Christmas trees become symbols of the trinity. Easter eggs become symbolic of the new life washed in the blood of Christ. Perhaps for the purist, these days are tainted by a heathen past. But for me, Resurrection Sunday points to the same event whether its called Easter or Pascha. Either way, Jesus opened the door to eternal life for all.

Constantine Romanized Christianity with Paganism and it must never meant to be. In my opinion, the Hebrew God doesnt like to be worship in pagan way .

Does the miracle of the incarnation of God in the flesh of a little palestinian Jewish baby somehow get diminished because Christians celebrate it on December 25 rather than April 17 (the day the Discovery Channel reported as Jesus' actual birthday)? Either way the good tidings announced by angels is still for all people. To me the heart of Christianity has very little to do with getting the church calendar right and everything to do with sharing the love of Christ. If that means meeting people halfway so that they can feel comfortable, then so be it.

Yet people are celebrating on a wrong date! They are celebrating the Birth and Resuurection of Yeshua on a wrong date so their praise and worsip are still useless...

Besides, the sordid pedigree of Christian holidays is a great reminder of what Christianity is all about. Christians, like these holidays, never started out as Christian, we all started out as something else--pagans, heathens, unbelievers--but were converted to Christ. He didn't destroy the old us but cleansed us, transformed us, set us apart, and made us holy. The church has done the same with these days. That's why they're Holy Days (holidays).

I agree He didnt destroy the old so we are still expected to obey the Torah (Old Law). I do not want to speak against the Torah however, salvation does not come through obedience of the Torah but through the resurrection of Yeshua. But even though salvation does not come through obedience of the Torah, we are still responsible to obey it because trying to Trying to OBEY and HONOR Christ, WITHOUT the commandments (including the festivals, feasts, and appointed times) of our Creator, is impossible. Since YESHUA is the Word (TORAH ) that became FLESH! So if you reject Torah (WORD) you also rejects Yeshua/Jesus.OBEY the commandments (including the festivals, feasts, and appointed times) of our Creator, WITHOUT Christ, is impossible.

Does it make sense?

Alright just for a clarification, I am spaeking to those Christ followers not to the heathens.

[Brother Kaman]

Does the miracle of the incarnation of God in the flesh of a little palestinian Jewish baby somehow get diminished because Christians celebrate it on December 25 rather than April 17 (the day the Discovery Channel reported as Jesus' actual birthday)?

So when did the Discovery Channel find Jesus' birth certificate?

Yet people are celebrating on a wrong date! They are celebrating the Birth and Resuurection of Yeshua on a wrong date so their praise and worsip are still useless...

Singing praises and worshiping is useless unless one does it on the right day?

[nealocampo]

Singing praises and worshiping is useless unless one does it on the right day?

Yes, because God made and set specific days and He called them as moedim or in english appointed time. So what's the essense of worshipping Him on a Pagan Day if God, Himself, actually set a righ time for His feats. If we will read Exodus 12:24 God said that:

" You are to observe it as a law, you and your descendants forever."

And in Exodus 12:49

"The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you!"

[Belyn Mawr]

Halloween, Easter, Christmas and Thanksgiving are just Christian versions of Pagan Samhain, Ishtar, Yule and Mabon. Christianism, even though they bash and criticize the pagan wiccans, also has Pagan practices which really originated from the ancients. Unknown to them, they are also doing what the Wiccans, Druids and Traditional Witches do every year! They only have renewed ones.

It's O.K. We don't mind sharing . Everybody loves a reason to have a party. For example I am not a German, but I love beer and brats during Oktoberfest. Sometimes I think that it is forgotten how important a person's intent is regarding things. Children who are going trick or treating are not out worshiping Pagan gods, they are just having fun. Easter bunnies and eggs may have been Pagan fertility symbols in ancient times, but I do not believe that anyone is doing homage to Ostara by celebrating Easter customs unless there is a conscious and deliberate intent to do so. We have many customs and traditions based on Paganism and folklore, but we cannot throw out huge chunks of our culture and large portions of our language to make things completely neutral. If your wall calendar has Teusday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday on it, you are not automatically a Norse Pagan who worships Tiw, Woden, Thor, and Frigg. You are not worshipping Mercury or Hermes when you drive on Goodyear tires just because their logo is the petasus (winged sandal). You do not become a Satanist when you eat a chocolate cake made from Duncan Hines devil's food cake mix. Of course, being a classic Witch and a Pagan, I am certain my opinions on the matter may be suspect. (Yes, we secretly hope to convert the whole world to Paganism with caramel apples and chocolate bunnies. Mmmwah-ha-ha !)

BTW, welcome to the Forum Nealocampo !

Edited October 18, 2012 by BeliMawr

[mererdog]

Yes, because God made and set specific days and He called them as moedim or in english appointed time. So what's the essense of worshipping Him on a Pagan Day if God, Himself, actually set a righ time for His feats. If we will read Exodus 12:24 God said that:

" You are to observe it as a law, you and your descendants forever."

And in Exodus 12:49

"The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you!"

Exodus also commands that witches and people who curse their parents are to be put to death. And that an ox that gores someone is stoned to death. Does it matter whether or not those rules are followed?

You talk about Christ, so let me ask you if you think Matt 7:7-11 has anything to do with this subject....

Edited October 18, 2012 by mererdog

[Dan56]

I'm glad you are still here Dan.

Me too.

Why thank you gentlemen.

Passover or Pesach is the real holiday that Christ follower must be celebrated not Easter since Christ himself followed it before He died and nailed in the execution stake. In Exodus 12:24 God said that, "You are to observe this as law, you and your descendants forever" but why dont most of us keep and observe this. Remember Easter is not the same as Pesach. Easter is all about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ (for some Christians which is a wrong belief) while Pesach is about passing over of God in Egypt!

Most Christians believe Christ became our Passover forever. The blood of lambs were used by the Hebrews on their door-posts in Egypt, but this was a token (Exodus 12:13) or temporary sign until the Lamb of God became the everlasting sacrifice. Jesus was buried just in time for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the ordinance ended when Christ became the Bread of Life. Dates aside, everyday is Passover in Christ because we escape death in Him. Christ also became our Sabbath, our Sacrifice, and High Priest, so all of those ordinances and statutes regulating those things via Mosaic law and through the Levitical priesthood became obsolete when the laws were fulfilled in Christ. JMO

[Ex Nihilo]

For me, mixing Hebrew God's instructions to Pagan customs is a BIG NO, NO. Why dont they just continue to follow the original Feast of the Hebrews?

Constantine Romanized Christianity with Paganism and it must never meant to be. In my opinion, the Hebrew God doesnt like to be worship in pagan way .

Yet people are celebrating on a wrong date! They are celebrating the Birth and Resuurection of Yeshua on a wrong date so their praise and worsip are still useless...

I agree He didnt destroy the old so we are still expected to obey the Torah (Old Law). I do not want to speak against the Torah however, salvation does not come through obedience of the Torah but through the resurrection of Yeshua. But even though salvation does not come through obedience of the Torah, we are still responsible to obey it because trying to Trying to OBEY and HONOR Christ, WITHOUT the commandments (including the festivals, feasts, and appointed times) of our Creator, is impossible. Since YESHUA is the Word (TORAH ) that became FLESH! So if you reject Torah (WORD) you also rejects Yeshua/Jesus.OBEY the commandments (including the festivals, feasts, and appointed times) of our Creator, WITHOUT Christ, is impossible.

Does it make sense?

Alright just for a clarification, I am spaeking to those Christ followers not to the heathens.

Interesting points Nealocampo. I think you are arguing two issues here: 1) you are saying that Christians are obligated to celebrate the holy days and festivals of the Torah and should abstain from other feasts which developed in the church over time and which replaced older pagan holidays; and 2) you are saying more broadly that Christians, including “gentile” Christians, must follow the Torah along with the obeying Christ under the new covenant.

I will start with the second issue. The Torah, made up of 613 laws, is what I and many Christians refer to as the Old Covenant. It was the law given by Moses to the people of Israel. It is invaluable to us and to all people because it convicts us of our sin and shows us our need for a savior. A great debt is owed to God’s chosen people for keeping the law and preserving the seed of David from which Jesus came according to the flesh. But the Law was a means to an end, not the end itself: “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves” (Heb 10:1). And that good thing, that savior, came in the person of Jesus Christ. In the Gospel of St. Matthew, Jesus is recorded as saying “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Mt. 5:17-18).

How does he accomplish the fulfillment of the Law? He, the sinless one, gave himself as a sacrifice for us sinners by being crucified. He even drove this point home with his final words before dying: “he said, ‘It is accomplished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit” (Jn 19:30).

How do we know this accomplished the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law? We have it from the highest authority. Christ himself, when he was risen, returned to his disciples and gave them understanding of the scriptures: He said to them, “’These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.’ And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Lk 24:44-47).

In its place, Christ instituted a New Covenant. He showed this at the Last Supper: “In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you’” (Lk 22:20). This new covenant is one of grace through faith in the finished work of Christ and not of works of law.

And what of the old covenant? Paul, in his letter to the Hebrews, speaks of the effect of Christ’s new covenant: “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear” (Heb 8:13). Sadly, this proved all to true with the destruction of the Temple a few years later. Now, considering that it has been said that nearly half of those 613 laws required both a Tabernacle and a Levitical priesthood to satisfy, I wonder how Torah followers consider themselves fulfilling the requirements of the Law when the temple system ended and the priesthood was replaced with a rabbinate. Alternatively, Christians believe, as taught in Hebrews 7, that a new priesthood and a new law and a new true tabernacle replaced the old: “For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also” (Heb 7:12). Christ himself is the new and everlasting high priest, interceding on our behalf in the presence of the Father in the heavenly Tabernacle.

Are we supposed to go back and embrace the old Law? The apostles said no. Acts 15 records the Council of Jerusalem where the Apostles and elders got together to determine whether gentile believers had to fulfill the Torah along with the New Covenant ordinances, they wrote this letter to gentile believers:

“To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization [those preaching that gentile believers had to be circumcised before being baptized] and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said…It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.” That’s not very much of the Torah.

And this brings me to your first argument, I’ll concede that I am bound as a Christian to what is often referred to the moral law of the old covenant like the Ten commandments, but not because it is part of the Torah, but because Christ told me to follow it (as clarified by his teachings like the Sermon on the Mount, the Summary of the Law, and the Golden Rule) as part of the new covenant. But I am not under obligation to observe ceremonial or civil laws. Their meaning and importance has disappeared for many Christians. This is echoed by St. Paul in Colossians “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” So now we have, as a church, created new festivals. Just as much shadows but just as good to point to the reality of Christ for the faithful. Does that mean you shouldn’t observe those festivals? I don’t think so. But I also think it means you cannot require it and you certainly shouldn’t judge those who choose not to participate.

You speak of the Hebrew God, but I think that is a little limiting. The God and Father of Jesus Christ, is no longer the God of just the Hebrews. He is God for all nations, and in Christ, all nations are one: “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28). But all this is my opinion and, as St. Paul says, we all see but dimly.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Rev'd Rattlesnake

[Crzyme]

It's O.K. We don't mind sharing . Everybody loves a reason to have a party. For example I am not a German, but I love beer and brats during Oktoberfest. Sometimes I think that it is forgotten how important a person's intent is regarding things. Children who are going trick or treating are not out worshiping Pagan gods, they are just having fun. Easter bunnies and eggs may have been Pagan fertility symbols in ancient times, but I do not believe that anyone is doing homage to Ostara by celebrating Easter customs unless there is a conscious and deliberate intent to do so. We have many customs and traditions based on Paganism and folklore, but we cannot throw out huge chunks of our culture and large portions of our language to make things completely neutral. If your wall calendar has Teusday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday on it, you are not automatically a Norse Pagan who worships Tiw, Woden, Thor, and Frigg. You are not worshipping Mercury or Hermes when you drive on Goodyear tires just because their logo is the petasus (winged sandal). You do not become a Satanist when you eat a chocolate cake made from Duncan Hines devil's food cake mix. Of course, being a classic Witch and a Pagan, I am certain my opinions on the matter may be suspect. (Yes, we secretly hope to convert the whole world to Paganism with caramel apples and chocolate bunnies. Mmmwah-ha-ha !)

BTW, welcome to the Forum Nealocampo !

wonderful way to put it!

once I wanted to do away with christmas in my home, I found it stupid to spend money in midwinter when funds were lowest at that time, it was the time for paying land tax, insurance (mandatory coverage) was also due then, but I had kids felt they would somehow be deprived as I had enjoyed the festivities when I was a child so I had Santa but I was resentful and often this lead to a not so good time had by all.

Time changes things, I married a man who looks much like Santa (LOL he will love the Satan aspect of that) and plays the part now for the grandkids, who tell everyone their Grandpa is Santa. We do not celebrate any Christian aspect of the season, we have Santa, a tree and decorate the house much like a santa village, it is just fun. We have no jesus here (nor the judgemental aspect of Jesus/god) our Santa doesn't give gifts as reward or withhold them for punishment, we tell kids (to the dismay to many parents) that Santa doesn't judge nor does he watch you all the time (how creepy is the idea that Santa is always watching) that Santa just does what he can to make life a little happier for the kids he gets to visit.

now I enjoy the season, the grandkids enjoy the season and life is so much better

My sons both have santa (not grandpa santa) gifts under their trees for their kids, one lets santa bring one gift (and not an extravagant one) and the other lets Santa bring most of the gifts but tells his kids he has to work to send santa the money for the gifts. I think we all choose what aspects of all the holidays we want to celebrate and that is a good thing, those who fuss and fight and get all out of sorts over what is or isn't celebrated just miss out on the fun, the how, when, where or why's do not really matter, life is short, enjoy as much of it as possible.

personally Halloween is my favorite always has been no matter the origins, no matter those who want to end it or fear it, I love to get all dressed up, be silly, stupid, crazy, scary or whatever seems fitting for that year and throw a party after all everyone loves a reason to party.

[Ex Nihilo]

I like your perspective on Santa, Crzyme.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Nobody has mentioned Queen Ester from the Passover tradition.

Ester -- Easter -- Ishtar

The lingusistics are clear enough.

[RabbiO]

Nobody has mentioned Queen Ester from the Passover tradition.

Ester -- Easter -- Ishtar

The lingusistics are clear enough.

Passover? Me thinks you meant Purim.

At least her name was actually Hadassah, or so the story goes.

Edited October 19, 2012 by RabbiO

[emalpaiz]

I enjoy Christmas. It is a time that liberates me from the tensions of daily life, just like any other special celebration. It matters not if its origins are Pagan or not, it is a joyful time of the year. To be honest, I do not think that God has established any holidays. I think that we can have sacred celebrations in any time of the year. Why must we limit ourselves?

Hermano Luis

[Ex Nihilo]

I enjoy Christmas. It is a time that liberates me from the tensions of daily life, just like any other special celebration. It matters not if its origins are Pagan or not, it is a joyful time of the year. To be honest, I do not think that God has established any holidays. I think that we can have sacred celebrations in any time of the year. Why must we limit ourselves?

Hermano Luis

I dig it Hermano

[Fawzo]

Any moment which liberates me from the clutches of fear is a Holy Second and it takes quite a few of them to make a Holyday

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Passover? Me thinks you meant Purim.

At least her name was actually Hadassah, or so the story goes.

Oops.

[Qryos]

Any moment which liberates me from the clutches of fear is a Holy Second and it takes quite a few of them to make a Holyday

I'm with ya there Fawzo Sweet...

Personally, I'm willing to celebrate with lights & decorations & feasting with family & friends at any time for any reason...

Every day is a gift { that's why it's called the 'present' } & yes, I know that's a bumper sticker, but why not? Enjoy now. That's important.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Qryos

[Fawzo]

My favorite Christmas decorations are a single lit candle in each window and a wreath on the door. Does anyone know what the origins of these traditions were. I disdain most other decorations myself though I know children get much pleasure from the more ostentatious ones.

Seeing a White Farm House with the candles in the windows and the wreath on the door lifts my spirits to heights that are hard to explain.

[RevTom]

~ It's dark & gloomy 'round the Winter Solstice...

Evergreens & lights & gathering to celebrate we're heading towards Spring & non-frozen tootsies, not a bad thing!

Personally, never been Christian but always love little twinkly lights & enjoy the colors of the festival midst Winter...

Ya, it's commercialized. { Try to avoid most of that, make gifts & such.}

... I work at Walmart & the inflated snowmen invaded the garden center last month!

One big squished-together retail Palooza, Halloween-Thanksgiving-Christmas-Summer Clearance

so here we go...let's go to the Walmarts, Targets, etc., buy one each of a Santa, Frosty, Witch, Hobgoblin, Turkey, and Easter Bunny doll or garden statue, etc and superglue them all together then place them at the entrance...or in our front lawns