Liberal Christianity

[Coolhand]

Nice post NW!

[nestingwave]

Coolhand,

Also.

If Ken is rejecting "God," exactly what is it that he is rejecting? Is it the I AM THAT I AM..... or..... is it something else derived from religiousity?

I believe that once a person can see and understand WHO and WHAT ALMIGHTY GOD (OUR FATHER) IS (and it is our job to aid in that discovery) then a person is totally set free forever.

Ken has probably been collared by some well meaning religious dogmatists. That can make anyone despair and feel as if he is not connected to love and life at all.

I am sometime amazed at how religious people often blame those poor "lost" sinners yet are unable to give them a drink of living water to refresh them. So they blame that "terrible" sinner and never once does the thought cross their mind that THEY may be delivering faulty goods to start with. "I am saved," they say. "Now if I can only get this filthy sinner saved like I am." hahahah. Thanks but no thanks.

namaste

[Coolhand]

I am sometime amazed at how religious people often blame those poor "lost" sinners yet are unable to give them a drink of living water to refresh them. So they blame that "terrible" sinner and never once does the thought cross their mind that THEY may be delivering faulty goods to start with. "I am saved," they say. "Now if I can only get this filthy sinner saved like I am." hahahah. Thanks but no thanks.

I can definatly "amen" that! Kinda reminds me of this:

The Sanhedrin is Confused Over Christ

45 Then the officers came to the chief priests and Pharisees, who said to them, “Why have you not brought Him?”

46 The officers answered, “No man ever spoke like this Man!”

47 Then the Pharisees answered them, “Are you also deceived? 48 Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? 49 But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.”50 Nicodemus(he who came to Jesus by night, being one of them) said to them, 51 “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?”

52 They answered and said to him, “Are you also from Galilee? Search and look, for no prophet has arisen out of Galilee.”

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1996, c1982), Jn 7:45.

[RabbiO]

Exodus 3: 14---And God said unto Moses I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israrel, The LORD GOD of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever and this is my memorial to all generations. (that's "forever" not temporary)

The "name" of Almighty God Our Father is.... according to the Bible.... I AM THAT I AM.

namaste

Being the nitpicker that I am, I have to point out two things. First, "I am that I am" may more accurately be "I will be what I will be."

Second, the Exodus 3:15 actually reads -

יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם

"YHVH, G-d of your fathers........ This is My name forever." Translating the tetragrammaton as "the Lord" obscures the name revealed in the passage by creating the erroneous impression that the phrase in the verse preceding אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה is G-d's name.

Edited January 12, 2010 by RabbiO

[RabbiO]

Being the nitpicker that I am, I have to point out two things. First, "I am that I am" may more accurately be "I will be what I will be."

Second, the Exodus 3:15 actually reads -

יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם

"YHVH, G-d of your fathers........ This is My name forever." Translating the tetragrammaton as "the Lord" obscures the name revealed in the passage by creating the erroneous impression that the phrase in the verse preceding אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה is G-d's name.

Further -

וָאֵרָא, אֶל-אַבְרָהָם אֶל-יִצְחָק וְאֶל-יַעֲקֹב--בְּאֵל שַׁדָּי; וּשְׁמִי יְהוָה, לֹא נוֹדַעְתִּי לָהֶם

Exodus 6:3 - G-d tells Moses that G-d appeared before Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Elyon because G-d had not made known the name YHVH to them.

Edited January 12, 2010 by RabbiO

[Brother Michael Sky]

It is pointless to interject with anything but my opinion at this point....

As Creators ( adolescent God, as it were ), where we direct our thought consciously, is where the power of the Lord is directed. Our wish for succor for another is always effective. The barrier of death is an open window for the power of Love. It is best to remember however, that a souls path is theirs alone to walk, our grief and our pain at the loss of a loved one is best kept as much to ourselves as possible. But by all means relive the love shared with that soul, send them your best wishes on their path, and know that you will meet again. The Creative power of Love is THE most powerful force in existence, with it, miracles are commonplace...

The second part of this is that we DO create our own realities... our creative abilities are amplified when we cross over, and as a result, we may find ourselves EXACTLY where we BELIEVE we'll be. This is potential trouble for many who have strong, orthodox beliefs... we may find ourselves on a cloud with a harp.... floating pointlessly ... until we wonder - why isnt there more to this experience?? Or for many : not such a harmless little scenario.... souls have closed themselves off into a spiritual coma after passing over, out of shame, fear and guilt, based on a lifetime of strict teachings which they carried with them at death... The current majority teachings surrounding death are a cause of a lot of work and effort on the other side. All these strict harsh teachings, with no basis in fact, are also a source of endless guilt for those " Teachers " who pass over.... Imagine being the cause of so much misunderstanding and pain, in so many individuals, as a consequence of devoting your life to GOD.... unintentional Karma still stings the soul....

[nestingwave]

Being the nitpicker that I am, I have to point out two things. First, "I am that I am" may more accurately be "I will be what I will be."

Second, the Exodus 3:15 actually reads -

יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם

"YHVH, G-d of your fathers........ This is My name forever." Translating the tetragrammaton as "the Lord" obscures the name revealed in the passage by creating the erroneous impression that the phrase in the verse preceding אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה is G-d's name.

Thanks brother. Of course I am reading from the King Jimmy (highly man-modified) version. heheheh. Beautiful beautiful Hebrew "I will be what I will be" is Being in future tense. Pure Being in past, present or future is still pure Being. Okay. Past, present, future. "Will be" implys creative evolution. Or, to not use that nasty word "evolution" (which infuriates some) I will simply say... "GROWTH."

However, in my very limited understanding Almighty God does not evolve nor need to "GROW", however the entire Great Creation does evolve/grow in conscious awareness to re-discover the First Source from whence it originally came---and the invisible God can only be seen (in our particular frequency--only one of an infinite number of frequencies) through his/her/its pure representatives existing in 4D space-time.

However, perhaps Almighty God, the Divine Source of All, DOES "evolve/grow."

How?

Through the creation of the infinite combinations of Almighty God's "sense organs" through the creative experiences of all the Created creatures. Maybe the One God is investigating endless infinity through the experiences being fed back through the many beings of limited consciousness. Limited in conscious awareness but highly focused on whatever their attention is focused on. So, many minute details are uncovered about one tiny aspect.

All to the Living, Ever Increasing Glory of Almighty God. "WOW," says God, "this is even bigger and more excellent than I thought."

Well, anyway, I doubt if Almighty God is ever bored. "Oh hum, yet another boring day of incomparable perfection."

Not hardly.

"When you've seen me," said Yeshua, "you have seen the Father."

The ancients referred to Almighty God as the Prime Source of all Potential. This was called, "Ein Soph" which means the "unknowable."

So, the invisible, unknowable, unapproachable Almighty God becomes visible, knowable and approachable through his pure vessels manifested in space-time. Even some not-so-pure vessels that are in training--like us. "Christ (the annointing) IN you (your conscious awareness) the hope of glory." If "glory" is perfection, there is hope for it. But "hope" implys that it aint finished yet---more to come.

Since it is eternally infinite will it EVER be "finished?"

Does the Omega of dualistic Creation mean a "finish?" Or,maybe it means a New Beginning? Or both?

These Cosmic questions may always exist in the creatures of time and space. A question does not necessarily have a final answer---especially when it involves the Infinity of Creative Intelligence. Maybe at some point we realize that it simply does not matter and are so overcome with awe and joy that all else is subsumed into meaninglessness.

This is the way that excites my tiny understanding and gives me that inner "amen."

I do understand why the Jewish people, in general, have a big problem with the religion called "Christianity." I have a similar problem. But, in my understanding and point of view, the one that Christians called "Jesus" NEVER EVER pointed to himself but to Our Father, Our Divine Source.

I think this may well be where the religiousity of state politics took over and made an idol (icon) after a human being who NEVER intended to be any kind of "Popular Star" at all---only boost the peoples awareness to SEE what he was pointing toward.

Not an easy job, since folks tend to flock after heros and popular idols or else the propaganda that constantly advertises such exempliary icons. However, some did get it... and to this day still have the same problem Jesus had with communicating it.

That's what priestcraft religion often does, no matter what flavor it happens to be. It overshadows the mind with the educated opinions of "experts"---those who "study" God but may or may not know who they are studying.

Make any sense?

Almighty God as Essence, Source, the Intelligent, Intentional, Loving Divine Potential of All-That-Is, was or ever shall be (completely outside of time or horizontal timelines and yet fully infused into time and time-lines) speaks forth the entire Great Creation into a world of manifestation from Alpha to Omega, the First and the Last.

And, of course that Divine Sound is the Great Tetragrammaton. YHVH. However, YHVH, or the Law of Four, as it is sometimes referred to, is still the dualism of Creation.

A dualistic wave-form. A rhythmic beat, so to speak. A vibration. A SOUND. Ocillations of Photons, A Divine Speaking forth with highly focused vector intention which started as a Divine Thought/Intention before it became audible to highly limited human ears.

Almighty God Our Father is completely beyond the Thought Boundary and yet permeates and penetrates it fully and completely.

What we call "The annointing" (Christ to use a Helenization) is simply an aspect of that Great Creation which is a pure unobstructed outlet, a highly communicable creative expression of the invisible, unknowable, First Source potential--made manifest in the dualistic world of form---this, that, positive, negative, male, female, good, evil, black, white, liberal, conservative () Jew, Gentile and on and on.

A kind of "prime-time wrestling match" which is nothing more than an elaborate game of entertainment.

A game which easily becomes a distraction away from the conscious awareness of the ONE. However, this "game" can be played well with creative skill, joy and fun as long as we see the One Source behind it all and do not take a plunge further into forgetfulness by thinking that this Great Theatrical Production is real Life.

Dualism is not "evil" as long as one knows and understands that the reality is ONE BEING... not two and not three.... not even the Law of Four (the Tetragrammaton). In a good sense the Tetragrammaton is a mathematical formula that describes how all Creation takes place, coagulates, compounds and multiplies (grows/evolves) in its crystaline structures of fractal mathematics into all the "things" which have form.

Any "name" spoken is dualistic. Why? Because it makes a distinction between that "name" and some other name. That's probably why the "name" is never spoken by the Jews. Right? That's why you always write God as G-d. God is so beyond our concepts that no word can adequately describe because words themselves are in the world of dualism and Almighty G-d is ONE. The First Source of All-That-Is.

Was this not the revelation of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Was this not the revelation of all the Prophets including Yeshua and Gutama Buddha , although he never even mentioned "God?"

RabbiO, I'd like to share two very short stores.

Some of the Jews in Israel wanted to find out about the beliefs and practices of the Tibetan Buddhists. Meanwhile, the Dali Lama had written a letter asking to find out about Judaism. So, some Jewish representatives went right over to see the Dali Lama and they had a wonderful uplifting and mutual spiritual exchange.

Both were highly edified!

The Jews came back to Israel and found that meditation and reincarnation were indeed hidden right there in Judaism all along and so began to practice mediatation.

The Dali Lama began to meditate and contemplate on the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and declared that a new understanding had enhanced his spiritual belief system. He found great similarity and resonant harmony between the spiritual basics of Buddhism and Judaism.

This simple openness and willingness to listen is what the world needs. Such fellowship causes HEALING for all. And not only HEALING but Divine Insight i.e. Revelation when the scales recede from ones eyes.

On the other side of the coin. One time the Tibetan Buddhists (Mahayana Buddhism) went to visit the Pope at the Vatican. When it came time to pray, the Pope and the Cardinals insisted that those wierd Tibetan Buddhist go pray in another room away from the "Holy Fathers" who did not want their prayers polluted by a bunch of "unsaved" heatens.

So, here are two examples of open and closed human behavior. The difference between genuine spirituality and religiousity.

The answer: just a simple understanding that Almighty God is the One Source of All-That-Is and not in any way exclusive of ANY of His/Her/Its Great Creation which was Divinely Spoken in Unsurpassing and Unconditional Love.

namaste

[Pete]

For many in this world, life has given them a bad deal in their developmental years or they are hounded by a psychosis or other problem in life. To say they have had a fair choice is for me a naive statement (IMO). It may make the faith feel better but how realistic is it.

The other thing to remember beside those of us who have chosen to follow a Christian path, we are often seen as just another lot of punters trying to push something. It is difficult to choose something when there are so many roads a person can travel and the choice is bewildering. I know we feel Jesus was wonderful but to many he was just another legend, blown out of proportion. Is that rejection of God when people do not see us as anymore significant than just another viewpoint lost in the fog of a universal abundance of differing opinion. i.e. Just one among many.

One would think if God wanted to save everyone he would of made the path clearer. The bible has given birth to schism after schism and denomination after denomination. If we cannot agree on the bible then how confusing can it all be for others. In reality for many we do not figure much in their lives, if at all, and we are trying to tell them of a God who created the whole universe and yet, I think I can forgive them for missing the signs that we are so significant with the bible. Call that a choice? pheowy!

I am sorry if this seems offensive but I am just giving a personal observation of the bible in action.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

Some folks have a problem with the apostle Paul, but in his writing, I think there is one inspired part that we sometimes miss, or maybe just have not considered to any great length. Pete, methinks God made it very clear about salvation. You see, He saved us, we don't save ourselves. The good news is that we are redeemed by the death and resurrection of Christ. When I say we I mean all. Read 1st Corinthians chapter 15, verses 12 through 28. Notice how many times Paul says the word "all." Not just some, not just the Corinthians, but ALL.

This is the most exciting verse: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." -vs22

I have heard the allegation here that it is unfair for God to condemn everyone (all) because Adam sinned. Yet, I hear no argument that through Chist ALL shall be made alive (born again, if you will). Read the verses and see if I am incorrect as to God's will that "ALL men be saved...AND come to a knowledge of the Truth." Does this mean that we are redeemed before we understand the truth about Christ, God, spirituality?

Herein is love, not that we loved God but that He first loved us...For God so loved the world that He gave...Salvation is a gift. God has redeemed Mankind through Christ. Period. Rejoice in it.

Edited January 13, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

Herein is love, not that we loved God but that He first loved us...For God so loved the world that He gave...Salvation is a gift. God has redeemed Mankind through Christ. Period. Rejoice in it.

I think its important to add that he first loved us knowing beforehand all our flaws and foibles even before we were born and if it is God's will that none should perish than God darn it no one is going to perish IMHO.

Unless of course if God is a failure, which I don't beive him to be. But if you listen to some Fundamentalist with all the people they project going to hell and the small portion who believe as they do being the only ones saved then from those numbers God would surely be a failure. I personally feel the only failure is our awareness and perceptions.

It seems clear to me that everyone involved in this discussions has extended much time and energy into seeking God with their whole hearts within their lives. The differences in the way we perceive the punitive nature of God though baffles me. Why hasn't God made this clearer to those who diligently seek him? We're all knocking here, we're all asking and we're all seeking and yet we are all getting different answers?

Are we all knocking, seeking and asking with an open mind or are we doing so with preconceived ideas and notions ahead of time, that we have been indoctrinated with from birth. Are we asking for easy pat answers that we want to hear or are we open to the truth, which can make us have to delve deeper and work harder than we really care to?

[nestingwave]

.....I know we feel Jesus was wonderful but to many he was just another legend, blown out of proportion. Is that rejection of God when people do not see us as anymore significant than just another viewpoint lost in the fog of a universal abundance of differing opinion. i.e. Just one among many.......

In short.... no. You.... or I..... demonstrating direct, practical, unconditional love makes the difference. All else is just vanity. If all people are able to see is yet another opinion of religiousity, they should reject it. If all they see is another legend blown out of proportion, that is because, indeed, that became the overriding factor of Christianity when Rome hijacked it and distorted the facts of it.

However, if they see Christ demonstrating unconditional love and concern, the rest doesn't matter.

We should be healers, not salesmen.

namaste

[nestingwave]

Some folks have a problem with the apostle Paul, but in his writing, I think there is one inspired part that we sometimes miss, or maybe just have not considered to any great length. Pete, methinks God made it very clear about salvation. You see, He saved us, we don't save ourselves. The good news is that we are redeemed by the death and resurrection of Christ. When I say we I mean all. Read 1st Corinthians chapter 15, verses 12 through 28. Notice how many times Paul says the word "all." Not just some, not just the Corinthians, but ALL.

This is the most exciting verse: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." -vs22

I have heard the allegation here that it is unfair for God to condemn everyone (all) because Adam sinned. Yet, I hear no argument that through Chist ALL shall be made alive (born again, if you will). Read the verses and see if I am incorrect as to God's will that "ALL men be saved...AND come to a knowledge of the Truth."

Very true Rainbow but often it is skpped over completely to follow the negative programming instead.

Does this mean that we are redeemed before we understand the truth about Christ, God, spirituality?

Our Spirit understands long before our cognitive minds. Yeshua's accomplishment was a spiritual accomplishment. Now, it is up to us to apply that into our 4D daily life. Fear, angst and "what about this, what about that?" makes us hesitate. Trying to figure it all out cognitively only brings confusion and and more hesitation. It is a matter of the Spirit and is a HEART matter, not a linear thought analysis. We need to allow our hearts to open from their paralysis due to a long induced fear of not being "religiously correct" and being condemed by the loving God to eternal torture having missed a jot or a tittle. Thinks about that. What utter nonsense! What useless fantastic imagination. Complete hallucination and completely UNREAL. All of our lack of Divine Ministry is due to our own silly windmill crusades against imaginary dragons which we ourselves created in this first place through vain hallucinatory imaginings.

Herein is love, not that we loved God but that He first loved us...For God so loved the world that He gave...Salvation is a gift. God has redeemed Mankind through Christ. Period. Rejoice in it.

Period.

Hi Rainbow,

No wonder they kicked you out of the church, tarred and feathered you and rode you out of town on a rail! hahahah. (just kidding brother) You open a can of pious worms here about the meaning of "salvation" and I'm glad you did. There is a whole lot of protein in a holy can of worms.

Would it surprise you to know that originally, the followers of Yeshua didn't go around trying to 'save" people from eternal perdition? They were far more interestied in healing the body, mind and spirit. This whole idea of "go to heaven or go to hell" was not a part of Yeshua's original teaching AT ALL. Finding enlightenment and dispelling ignorance and suffering were.

This is very different from the so-called "Christiianity" version of today. Really. "Salvation" and whether a person is "saved" or "damned" to the eternal unbearable roastings of hell-fire (by the loving God, of course) was never even a part of Yeshua's life and teaching. Nope. He considered the animal sacrifices and the murder of human beings to be an abomination to Our Father. He was not well liked in Judaic circles and even less liked in Roman circles who self-righteouly murdered one person after another.

Look. There is no doubt that some folks exprience a hell-on-earth and suffer immensly. Why? Did the Universal Life give them a raw deal? Did their past Karma demand justice? Are they "cursed" by Almighty God? Are they just a "bad seed?" Are they just undergoing pre-torture to get them ready for eternal unbearable fire? Is the Universal Life deaf to all their shrieks of pain? Was Darwin right and it is all just an accidental "mistake" of mind-less natural forces that caused that baby to be born blind, crippled, mentally retarded and with two heads?

The Buddhists know the answer to human suffering and so does the genuine Christ whose original teaching was greatly compatible with Buddhism. If you'd like to understand what Jesus Christ actually taught ---read what his disciple had to say in the earliest gospel ever penned----the one hidden away from the progroms carried out by Empirial Rome as the Military arm of Roman Catholicism which set out to physically destroy all non-Orthodox thought---you know, those who opposed the viral thought meme that Almighty God would "get you" if you didn't fall into line and goosestep properly according to the "holy" experts? If anyone dared to go up against them, it was the same as going up against Almighty God---according to them. And they gave themselves the "power" to condemn any soul to hell by excommunicating them---not only from their denomination---but from salavation. In other words, to oppose them was to be fried continually for eternity. So, many continued this tradition of vainity for centuries and it continued right on into Protestantism whose "protest" was quite weak indeed having already received considerable programming for centuries before.

God bless 'em, they thought they were doing the right thing by using threats, force, violence murder and torture to spread their (rather twisted) version of the "good news." Wow, it sounds almost like today's politic. Well.... where do you think they learned such behavior?

Of course, the "Holy Fathers" kept their hands lilly white and allowed the civil authorities to do all the dirty work (Iintrerrogation, torture, lighting fires etc.)---all in the name of Jesus Christ, of course. Its really no surprise that some folks have trouble with the "ianity?" Those purging operations were fully sactified and blessed. Domine domine domination. They had to protect their "truth"---professional careers were at stake.

They thought the best way to avoid confusion was simply to eliminate any opposition by labeling it "heresy." So.... here's some "heresy" to consider: (actually, this goes right along very well with what you just posted, Rainbow.)

Methinks you is psychic. Or maybe you are just listening to the still, small voice within and responding. I highly suspect that. Perhaps we need another holy inquisition?

Really, I think the time has come for folks to wake up to the vain traditions of the fathers which at times we have all robotically followed like well herded cattle--mostly without knowing it.

It is now time to use the fine equipment that Almighty God gave each and every one of us, so that we might learn to think for ourselves and become effective outlets for the living water of the Most High God on behalf of peace on earth and goodwill toward ALL men.

The time rapidly approaches for the full "manifestation of the sons-of-God." The whole creation now travails and groans awaiting it---according to Paul---and I think he's right in this point because I and others are already directly experiencing it.

But, taking another look at history will help us to understand how we arrived in this sorry divisive condition. And in order to do that, we must find out where our belief systems came from in the first place----and self-adjust according to the genuine Christ whom we adore.

And this is everyone's own personal responsibility.

The following link may help----but you will only get out of it what you put into it---and by that, I mean the amount of consideration and contemplation. I only offer this because it helped me to get clearer about these matters. Some will trash it. Some will lightly read it. Some will resonate with something there. Most will do nothing and continue on as business as usual. But this is both a call and a warning at the same time. No, you are not being threatened with hell-fire like you are so used to, but the amount of rejoicing you will experince will depend upon how serious you think the situation is.

And, from my own individual perspective, it is dire indeed. I and many others desire to see this planet and all its creatures healed and it starts at home because each and every one of us has come under the influence of some very vile religious negativity---to the point of being more or less crippled in allowing Christ's living water to gush out of our beings to refresh a very thirsty world. No, you are not "worthy" and neither am I, but Christ in us the hope of glory IS worthy and has already accomplished it. Now, all we have to do is live a life WITHIN that accomplishment, instead of opposing ourselves by trying to deal with piles of dead and useless baggage that is utterly meaningless.

The Gospel of the Holy Twelve

namaste

[Pete]

Some folks have a problem with the apostle Paul, but in his writing, I think there is one inspired part that we sometimes miss, or maybe just have not considered to any great length. Pete, methinks God made it very clear about salvation. You see, He saved us, we don't save ourselves. The good news is that we are redeemed by the death and resurrection of Christ. When I say we I mean all. Read 1st Corinthians chapter 15, verses 12 through 28. Notice how many times Paul says the word "all." Not just some, not just the Corinthians, but ALL.

This is the most exciting verse: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." -vs22

I have heard the allegation here that it is unfair for God to condemn everyone (all) because Adam sinned. Yet, I hear no argument that through Chist ALL shall be made alive (born again, if you will). Read the verses and see if I am incorrect as to God's will that "ALL men be saved...AND come to a knowledge of the Truth." Does this mean that we are redeemed before we understand the truth about Christ, God, spirituality?

Herein is love, not that we loved God but that He first loved us...For God so loved the world that He gave...Salvation is a gift. God has redeemed Mankind through Christ. Period. Rejoice in it.

I also find things in the bible that I like to read and things I do not.

If one accepts one thing only but not another then they are accused of a pick n mix type of Christianity. There are parts that talk of damnation as there are parts that talk of salvation.

If they try to accept all in the bible they are confronted by its inconsistencies.

If they swallow a particular dogma from a denomination then they are not challenged by those who also follow that dogma but alienate themselves from those who do not.

If they do not believe it then they are seen as sinful.

It seems to me that any faith that is based on the bible alone will never please all and therefore It is ill fitting for its said purpose of bringing all people to God.

Yet, the changes in the heart of a person are not likely challenged by either party. I believe it is God that works within people but I do not believe that Christians alone are moved by God, and therefore we can see the workings of God throughout the world despite the bible.

Micah 6:8

⁸ He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

It seems to me that any faith that is based on the bible alone will never please all and therefore It is ill fitting for its said purpose of bringing all people to God.

Yet, the changes in the heart of a person are not likely challenged by either party. I believe it is God that works within people but I do not believe that Christians alone are moved by God, and therefore we can see the workings of God throughout the world despite the bible.

Micah 6:8

⁸ He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

A note of caution here. Referring to what is in bold above, Christian faith should NOT be based on the bible alone and, as a matter of fact, should not be based primarily on the bible, but rather faith in God and, more specifically, faith in the works of Christ Jesus.

The Bible reveals Christ and the Father to us but was intended, just as the Law was, as a teacher, a guide and NEVER as a foundation. "No other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." - 1Corinthians 3:11

Our walk with God is a personal walk and it is good that we come together and worship at times and sing praises and pray. But it is a walk with YOU and God. And who is to say where God shall lead you? "Peter seeing him said to Jesus, 'Lord, what shall this man do?' Jesus answered, "...what is that to thee? Follow thou me." - John 21:21-22

I find the Bible as a source of spiritual education, comfort and guidance but it will never replace the trust and access that I have with my Father in Heaven through my older Brother, Jesus. For me, the world is my classroom, the Bible is my textbook, Jesus is my teacher and the Holy Spirit is my guidance counselor.

[Youch]

If the bible is fallible, why do Liberals quote it at all? It seems to me that they believe what appeals to them and reject what doesn't suit them. The bible is where we learn about Christ, therefore, how does a person reject the bible as being the inspired Word of God while simultaneously professing to be Christian? It seems illogical and contradictory since a Christian by definition is a follower of Christ. How do you have faith in Christ when you doubt the authenticity of the Gospels which reveal who Christ was and what he taught?

Much like the liberal view that the Constitution is a "living document" to mean whatever they want it to mean, the bible says what it says and if folks are not going to follow what it says, maintain some sort of standard, then it really calls into question the veracity of the document and the belief in the first place. Generally speaking, this liberal view is just too conveniently self-serving and avoids the hard choices and sacrafices required to maintain standards, definitions and commonality.

Having said that, I think I agree with the majority here that if a certain faith makes a person a better person then the particulars ought not matter. But while spirituality is a personal thing, religion is an institution.....if a member of that institution is not going to ascribe to the tennants of that institution, then it's kinda like a diehard Yankee's fan buying season tickets at Dodger Stadium, that is to say, merely faithless convenience and opportunity.

and ,

The Agnostic

[Pete]

A note of caution here. Referring to what is in bold above, Christian faith should NOT be based on the bible alone and, as a matter of fact, should not be based primarily on the bible, but rather faith in God and, more specifically, faith in the works of Christ Jesus.

The Bible reveals Christ and the Father to us but was intended, just as the Law was, as a teacher, a guide and NEVER as a foundation. "No other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." - 1Corinthians 3:11

Our walk with God is a personal walk and it is good that we come together and worship at times and sing praises and pray. But it is a walk with YOU and God. And who is to say where God shall lead you? "Peter seeing him said to Jesus, 'Lord, what shall this man do?' Jesus answered, "...what is that to thee? Follow thou me." - John 21:21-22

I find the Bible as a source of spiritual education, comfort and guidance but it will never replace the trust and access that I have with my Father in Heaven through my older Brother, Jesus. For me, the world is my classroom, the Bible is my textbook, Jesus is my teacher and the Holy Spirit is my guidance counselor.

That seems great to me but what about those who quote 2 Timothy 3:16. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". For some the belief that the bible is the actual word of God is central to anyone who calls themselves a Christian. Hence, my use term of the fundamentalist (which believe it or not I did not personally invent ) :- see http://en.wikipedia..../Fundamentalism

The corner stone of fundamentalism is what they call the 5 fundamentals, which are :-

The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.

The virgin birth of Christ.

The belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin.

The bodily resurrection of Christ.

The historical reality of Christ's miracles.

I personally would have difficulty with something from all of the above. Hence, my liberal position. I am not inventing the issue. It already exists.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Pete

[Pete]

Much like the liberal view that the Constitution is a "living document" to mean whatever they want it to mean, the bible says what it says and if folks are not going to follow what it says, maintain some sort of standard, then it really calls into question the veracity of the document and the belief in the first place. Generally speaking, this liberal view is just too conveniently self-serving and avoids the hard choices and sacrafices required to maintain standards, definitions and commonality.

Having said that, I think I agree with the majority here that if a certain faith makes a person a better person then the particulars ought not matter. But while spirituality is a personal thing, religion is an institution.....if a member of that institution is not going to ascribe to the tennants of that institution, then it's kinda like a diehard Yankee's fan buying season tickets at Dodger Stadium, that is to say, merely faithless convenience and opportunity.

and ,

The Agnostic

Hi Hooka.

I think the question is not standards for me. I do actually believe in some standards and try to live accordingly. The question for me is based on whether the understanding and language of the bible as written a least 2000 yrs ago stands up against understandings we have today. Does one have to stick to an understanding that you believe has been largely invented by Rome or am I free to find my path in the direction that I feel I am being led. Can I debate understandings from people who would talk about the firment under our feet and the firment above the skies, in bible times with today's understandings. Also I question some of the premisses that have (IMO) held up the progress of the faith, but at the same time of doing so, taking care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater (so to speak).

I guess it is something that matters to us weirdees.

[Dan56]

Much like the liberal view that the Constitution is a "living document" to mean whatever they want it to mean, the bible says what it says and if folks are not going to follow what it says, maintain some sort of standard, then it really calls into question the veracity of the document and the belief in the first place. Generally speaking, this liberal view is just too conveniently self-serving and avoids the hard choices and sacrafices required to maintain standards, definitions and commonality.

Having said that, I think I agree with the majority here that if a certain faith makes a person a better person then the particulars ought not matter. But while spirituality is a personal thing, religion is an institution.....if a member of that institution is not going to ascribe to the tennants of that institution, then it's kinda like a diehard Yankee's fan buying season tickets at Dodger Stadium, that is to say, merely faithless convenience and opportunity.

I kinda agree, that if a persons faith makes them a better person, that is a good thing. But since the bible teaches us of Christ, it just seems hypocritical for a person to say "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe the bible". But I also understand that many prefer the Gnostic gospels, and are turned-off by religious dogma and the traditions of men. As you mentioned, the liberal outlook is a self-serving choice which allows a person to pick and choose their own standards while avoiding the particulars. Being a fundamentalist, I obviously belief that the particulars matter, otherwise we are all taking our own way, and our own way doesn't lead to salvation.

[nestingwave]

Much like the liberal view that the Constitution is a "living document" to mean whatever they want it to mean, the bible says what it says and if folks are not going to follow what it says, maintain some sort of standard, then it really calls into question the veracity of the document and the belief in the first place. Generally speaking, this liberal view is just too conveniently self-serving and avoids the hard choices and sacrafices required to maintain standards, definitions and commonality.

Having said that, I think I agree with the majority here that if a certain faith makes a person a better person then the particulars ought not matter. But while spirituality is a personal thing, religion is an institution.....if a member of that institution is not going to ascribe to the tennants of that institution, then it's kinda like a diehard Yankee's fan buying season tickets at Dodger Stadium, that is to say, merely faithless convenience and opportunity.

and ,

The Agnostic

You are right Hooka. Even an agnostic such as yourself can see the difference between "spirituality" and "religion."

"But while spirituality is a personal thing, religion is an institution....." Yep. A man-made institution. And that is exactly why you have 3000 divisions (at last count) in the "ianity" who do nothing but squbble amongst themselves. Even the Bible as we have it here in 2010 is a man-made item. Because, simply, those who have the guts to actually find out where it came from and how it evolved know that perfectly well. For example, there was an earlier work written in the native tongue of the one who called himself "the son-of-man" which includes 1) reincarnation, 2) Veganism, 3) Jesus as being born of Mary AND Joseph in the normal way, 4) care and respect for the animals, 5) disdain for animal and human sacrifices, 6) contradiction to the doctrine that Jesus' "blood" washes away sins or ANY spilt blood washes away sins. All these things were edited out of the Greek testaments of today which came directly from the Catholic Church several hundred years after the advent. It was a huge compromise because all the items listed above were NOT convenient to the Roman Empire of totalitarianism.

So, those who insist that the written Bible they idolize today is inerrant are completely wrong. All they have to do, which they refuse to do lest they come to realize their belief system is based upon lies and deception, is simply read those Holy Roman Fathers who openly declared that THEY THEMSELVES were inerrant and what ever they decided to invent was directly from Almighty God and not to be questioned. However, few have the courage to question the authoritarianiism of their religious programming---lest they burn in hell. And of course, that was built into the program to prevent..... questioning that might uncover the truth. It actually worked quite well, with the exception of a few cases. In fact, NO holy work written by the hand of man (as all of them are) is inerrant.

In the case of the Bible, the changes made were not mistakes but consciousess manipulations. The early Holy Fathers even hired who they refered to as "CORRECTORS" to adjust this original Aramaic work to conform to the doctrines and dogmas they were creating as the STATE religion. In addition they used murder, inquisition, torture, imprisonment and one progom after another to wipe out any other thought other than the viral thought meme they were creating in order to exercise control over the bodies, minds and souls of men. Yet..... I forgive them totally because I have learned that such opposition to the truth only makes a person, who is a true seeker, DIVE DEEPER into their own Spirituality in order to resonante with the truth of the of their inner Source.

However, most people will not seek but just accept the propaganda they are told by those claiming to be "spiritual authority figures." I do not blame them for that because I too was right there. And, of course, this is not only true of the "ianity" but of other man-made doctrines and dogmas as well from all religions.

So, my belief systems includes 1) reincarnation, 2) Veganism, 3) no blood saqcrifices etc. Not because someone told me the opposite but because my own personal seeking brought me to those principles which I see as the way the Universe operates.

And that, as you well noted, is the difference between "spirituality" and "religion." However, it is nothing special. Every human being on earth has the exact same ALL-PARENT, the same exact Source of All-That-Is which resides at the Core Source of their being and interfacing with that part of our being is open to any and ALL----REGARDLESS of their religious belief system or lack thereof, such as Agnostics and Atheists. Most Atheists say there is no God because of all the phoney advertising about God coming from man-made "religion." And I find that refreshing rather than something to be condemned and railed against.

So, dear folks such as Dan wonder why we quote the Bible at all if we realize it has been manipulated? The answer is easy. We know exactly where the manipulation took place and the rest is a matter of one's discernment through their own spirituality. Each finds their own peace. But spirituality does not impose itself upon other beings and that is one of the main differences between spirituality and man-made "religion."

namaste

Edited January 13, 2010 by nestingwave

[Pete]

I kinda agree, that if a persons faith makes them a better person, that is a good thing. But since the bible teaches us of Christ, it just seems hypocritical for a person to say "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe the bible". But I also understand that many prefer the Gnostic gospels, and are turned-off by religious dogma and the traditions of men. As you mentioned, the liberal outlook is a self-serving choice which allows a person to pick and choose their own standards while avoiding the particulars. Being a fundamentalist, I obviously belief that the particulars matter, otherwise we are all taking our own way, and our own way doesn't lead to salvation.

According to your model of things, but we do not all work from your model of things Dan.

If I want to pick up a book and quote it, then that is up to me. I do not need anyone's permission or any religions permission. I have made plain what I feel about some of the writings and therefore I do not feel that hypocrisy comes into it.

Nestingwave. Your post makes a lot of sense to me. The Romans wanted a religion to rule people with. Constantine was no Christian by any standard, I know. He was a murderer and a tyrant who only got baptised on his death bed. He was more interested in the luck the symbol of the cross would bring him in battle and how to unify the empire and yet, it was him who made the basis of the religion we have today. Inerrrant, I am sure but only because a person would not live long if they challenged his wishes openly.

I liked your post Nestingwave and like you, I was right up with them until I started to read more widely, question things and come to some of my own conclusions. Something that some fear to do and only dare look at what they are told they can (IMO).

As for me I do not call that hypocrisy, I call that honesty.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Pete