Liberal Christianity

[Pete]

Thanks for the links NW. I agree with you about the NT Greek Manuscripts. I recently had a discussion with I professor I had in my undergrad program who insists the codek siniaticus is the oldest complete NT text; dated back to 350 ad. I told him about the Khubouris Aramaic which is a complete NT text that is atleast 100 years older. It seems thier is a still a schism between the eastern and western churches; both having thier preferred texts. Having studied the Greek and the Aramaic I have come away with the feeling of having wasted time because they say the same thing; minor differences that are not (in my opinion) worth the time investment to investigate.

I will save the links and I thank you for posting them. What I am actually looking for (and am starting to doubt is out there) is someone who is interested in sharing what they know about these other religious paths. Someone who is devoted to religious paths other than Christianity that I can share, and learn different aspects of the same issues; to be taught and to understand from other views. I am currently in a masters program that requires around 2,000 pages of reading and somewhere around 65 pages of writing per class; so when someone tells me "here, you go research it" I really do not have that kind of time. Many of these other religions will be coming up in my cross cultural and anthropology studies, but studying it and knowing someone who actually is dedicated to and practices them is something completely differnt. I notice that if I want someone to list the endless problems with historic or conservative christianity, man people just get in line up and let it fly. But when I try to get someone to share positively about what they believe so I can learn from them, man I am just out of luck.

Thanks for the links NW.

I think this is a problem. Liberals are not usually so definite about what is truth except to say it starts with a journey of discovery. I feel one of the major problems we probably were once conservative in what we believed and have had the ground pulled from under us. When I say we find it hard to trust the church, I do not do so as an attack, but to describe the revelation of something that is a painful process. For example:- The church continues to say something is so and you feel it is a lie. This then leaves one feeling alienated and one is either left with the choice of giving in and dismissing what they believe or continue to pursue an original understanding, even if it does isolate them. Most of the problems are because the church has had about 2,000 years head start on covering its tracks and most liberals are just tentatively starting out on their journey. Most liberals would then ask themselves, is staying in a church more important than trying to get at a truth.

People's journeys have taken them to differing places and differing discoveries but what none of us can say 'is this a truth' and being as we cannot be all authoritative on what knowledge is out there we are more than likely to suspend judgement of each other. One thing that most of us do believe is that God is at work throughout the world and affecting people. This is because we believe we find that of God no matter where we look with regard to many world religions. I am sorry that many of us cannot be so definite about what we believe in the same way as those who believe the bible is inerrant.

Hey! no one says it is easy and the church has been at its activities for a long time.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Pete

[Pete]

I think this is a problem. Liberals are not usually so definite about what is truth except to say it starts with a journey of discovery. I feel one of the major problems we probably were once conservative in what we believed and have had the ground pulled from under us. When I say we find it hard to trust the church, I do not do so as an attack, but to describe the revelation of something that is a painful process. For example:- The church continues to say something is so and you feel it is a lie. This then leaves one feeling alienated and one is either left with the choice of giving in and dismissing what they believe or continue to pursue an original understanding, even if it does isolate them. Most of the problems are because the church has had about 2,000 years head start on covering its tracks and most liberals are just tentatively starting out on their journey. Most liberals would then ask themselves, is staying in a church more important than trying to get at a truth.

People's journeys have taken them to differing places and differing discoveries but what none of us can say 'is this a truth' and being as we cannot be all authoritative on what knowledge is out there we are more than likely to suspend judgement of each other. One thing that most of us do believe is that God is at work throughout the world and affecting people. This is because we believe we find that of God no matter where we look with regard to many world religions. I am sorry that many of us cannot be so definite about what we believe in the same way as those who believe the bible is inerrant.

Hey! no one says it is easy and the church has been at its activities for a long time.

I know Phil Ochs was not talking about religion when he sang this but I feel many Liberals will sympathise with its sentiments :-

Phil Ochs, I'm Going to Say It Now Lyrics

Oh I am just a student, sir, and only want to learn

But it's hard to read through the risin' smoke of the books that you like to burn

So I'd like to make a promise and I'd like to make a vow

That when I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now

Edited January 10, 2010 by Pete

[nestingwave]

Thanks for the links NW. I agree with you about the NT Greek Manuscripts. I recently had a discussion with I professor I had in my undergrad program who insists the codek siniaticus is the oldest complete NT text; dated back to 350 ad. I told him about the Khubouris Aramaic which is a complete NT text that is atleast 100 years older. It seems thier is a still a schism between the eastern and western churches; both having thier preferred texts. Having studied the Greek and the Aramaic I have come away with the feeling of having wasted time because they say the same thing; minor differences that are not (in my opinion) worth the time investment to investigate.

Well, The Gospel of the Twelve is more than a minor difference and it is the earliest Aramaic writing known. When you date back to 350 or 250 you are talking Roman Orthodoxy. Even the very first of the Catholic holy fathers (Origen) believed in reincarnation because that was the original teaching of Yeshua. Although he was the most prolific of all the holy fathers, even he was called a heretic at one time after the dogmatization. It was very much like communist brainwashing to produce "correct" thinking.

I will save the links and I thank you for posting them. What I am actually looking for (and am starting to doubt is out there) is someone who is interested in sharing what they know about these other religious paths. Someone who is devoted to religious paths other than Christianity that I can share, and learn different aspects of the same issues; to be taught and to understand from other views. I am currently in a masters program that requires around 2,000 pages of reading and somewhere around 65 pages of writing per class; so when someone tells me "here, you go research it" I really do not have that kind of time. Many of these other religions will be coming up in my cross cultural and anthropology studies, but studying it and knowing someone who actually is dedicated to and practices them is something completely differnt. I notice that if I want someone to list the endless problems with historic or conservative christianity, man people just get in line up and let it fly. But when I try to get someone to share positively about what they believe so I can learn from them, man I am just out of luck.

Thanks for the links NW.

You are welcome. If you want to learn about comparative religions you are best off learning from a genuine practitioner of that religion. For example Buddhism. I would suggest the Dali Lama who has taught many of us the spiritual essence of Buiddhism, nothing about ritual practices etc. Actually, the Dali Lama is not out to impose his culture on anyone but only share the spiritual essence of Buddhism knowing perfectly well that it is in no way contradictory to Christianity or Judaism for that matter. The wisest people in the world recognize the difference between "religion" and genuine spirituality. Personally, I care nothing for ritual practices from other cultures. I prefer the simplicity of the Lord's Table which is my own culture but I practice it rarely. As to my daily spiritual practice, it is meditation and prayer.

namaste

[Coolhand]

As to my daily spiritual practice, it is meditation and prayer.

Which is my point....Me too! Wouldn't be nice to see how is God speaking to both of as seen through your point of view and mine?

[Fawzo]

So it seems the Bible isnt the only sacred texts claimed to be tampered with?

Sorry but it isnt special in that aspect either lol

Tao te Ching and all the rest have been touched by man and why there are variations in almost all religious texts.

Ah me, "what is truth?" -Pontius Pilate (allegedly)

Breathe in and breathe out!

Edited January 10, 2010 by Fawzo

[Coolhand]

Breathe in and breathe out!

That is nice in its simplicity, but is disconnected from application. Compare and contrast the following:

Gnosis with Epignosis

Orthodoxy with Orthopraxy

Theory with Practicality

[Pete]

That is nice in its simplicity, but is disconnected from application. Compare and contrast the following:

Gnosis with Epignosis

Orthodoxy with Orthopraxy

Theory with Practicality

Yep! and all that based on a belief.

[Coolhand]

Yep! and all that based on a belief.

Of course it is; everything we do or think is based on a belief.

[Pete]

Of course it is; everything we do or think is based on a belief.

Like sleep and breathing?

No, I am not saying anything is any the less for being a belief. Heck! most what we have today has been based on someone somewhere, having a belief. Beliefs are important. They can make a person and they can also destroy a person. It is the air of life. Hence, Fawzo's breath in, breath out.

[Coolhand]

Like sleep and breathing?

No, I am not saying anything is any the less for being a belief. Heck! most what we have today has been based on someone somewhere, having a belief. Beliefs are important. They can make a person and they can also destroy a person. It is the air of life. Hence, Fawzo's breath in, breath out.

Oh.....it's that simple eh Pete? Here is one for you:

You walk into church and you are getting ready for the service to start. You notice someone new sitting alone away from everyone else and crying. You walk over and introduce yourself, he introduces himself and tells you that he is going to kill himself, but his uncle told him he needed to go to 'a church' and talk to someone first.

What do you do next? (After you breathe in and out...lol)

[RevRainbow]

Oh.....it's that simple eh Pete? Here is one for you:

You walk into church and you are getting ready for the service to start. You notice someone new sitting alone away from everyone else and crying. You walk over and introduce yourself, he introduces himself and tells you that he is going to kill himself, but his uncle told him he needed to go to 'a church' and talk to someone first.

What do you do next? (After you breathe in and out...lol)

Tell him it's a sin and he'll go to hell?

What if it's a fellow Christian who has been going to your church as long as you remember? Hyperventilate?

[nestingwave]

Oh.....it's that simple eh Pete? Here is one for you:

You walk into church and you are getting ready for the service to start. You notice someone new sitting alone away from everyone else and crying. You walk over and introduce yourself, he introduces himself and tells you that he is going to kill himself, but his uncle told him he needed to go to 'a church' and talk to someone first.

What do you do next? (After you breathe in and out...lol)

I say, "that's why I'm here." (yeah the breathe in and out with lol (of course) is a great preparation to allow the Spirit to fill your thought and communicate. And, if you can get the suicidal man to laugh too---battle won.

"You have no place to stay? We'll you do now, for as long as you need."

Or.... some might say.

"Don't kill yourself... come with me to talk with the pastor."

And each of those responses demonstrates concern and compassion.

However.... then the Pastor says.

"God loves you and I am sending you to the homeless shelter where you will be taken care of. I promise to come and pray with you more. Let's ask God to forgive us and lend a hand of comfort. Let us praaaaaaay."

Also demonstrating compassion and love..... however..... second hand.

I have heard it said, and I think it is true----"Almighty God never does anything that one of his servants cannot do." So, the only question is---are you confident to serve Almighty God in the form of a suicidal person who has reached the end of their rope and is about to despair? It could be a test for you----and in fact is always a test----to see how much you have grown in your basic interface with the Spirit.

A "test" easily passed with "joy unspeakable and full of glory," to use a Biblical description.

So, to anyone in that situation I would say, "Come on. I know you are perfectly equipped because the suicidal man was there and you showed your concern. That's all there is to it. Christ in you the Hope of Glory will easily do the rest No need to worry. You can be totally confident because you have stepped into the Divine Presence with extreme ease. Just open your mouth and Almighty God will fill it and he cares not what your "qulifications" are---even if you got your certificate over the internet.

namaste

[Pete]

Oh.....it's that simple eh Pete? Here is one for you:

You walk into church and you are getting ready for the service to start. You notice someone new sitting alone away from everyone else and crying. You walk over and introduce yourself, he introduces himself and tells you that he is going to kill himself, but his uncle told him he needed to go to 'a church' and talk to someone first.

What do you do next? (After you breathe in and out...lol)

I am not sure how and why you asked that question. Did I say life and what it throws at people is easy. Did I or anyone else say a ministers job was easy? It does seem to be picked out of the air, but lets play along.

The first thing you do is listen, using all the active listening skills you have. Treat them with warmth, genuineness and empathy. Offer help to solve any issues. Do not preach at them, listen to what they have to say and only give your view if they want it. You can ask if they want it. If they are still set on doing themselves in and wanting to leave then, get a professional in (police preferably as they are good at getting the ball rolling with other professionals and are more likely to keep them safe until they come).

Being able to build a relationship with them, showing you care, and listen, is a must.

I am giving it brief here and there is a lot of differing directions it could go. I do not know what formal training you have with someone threatening suicide. I have 38 years working in mental health and formal qualifications in counselling and therapy and have been in the situation many times over the years. Even I have to say that sometimes things do not work for the best (although mostly they have). You just have to try.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Pete

[nestingwave]

Which is my point....Me too! Wouldn't be nice to see how is God speaking to both of as seen through your point of view and mine?

It already is nice. Thank you.

namaste

[Coolhand]

I say, "that's why I'm here." (yeah the breathe in and out with lol (of course) is a great preparation to allow the Spirit to fill your thought and communicate. And, if you can get the suicidal man to laugh too---battle won.

"You have no place to stay? We'll you do now, for as long as you need."

Or.... some might say.

"Don't kill yourself... come with me to talk with the pastor."

And each of those responses demonstrates concern and compassion.

However.... then the Pastor says.

"God loves you and I am sending you to the homeless shelter where you will be taken care of. I promise to come and pray with you more. Let's ask God to forgive us and lend a hand of comfort. Let us praaaaaaay."

Also demonstrating compassion and love..... however..... second hand.

I have heard it said, and I think it is true----"Almighty God never does anything that one of his servants cannot do." So, the only question is---are you confident to serve Almighty God in the form of a suicidal person who has reached the end of their rope and is about to despair? It could be a test for you----and in fact is always a test----to see how much you have grown in your basic interface with the Spirit.

A "test" easily passed with "joy unspeakable and full of glory," to use a Biblical description.

So, to anyone in that situation I would say, "Come on. I know you are perfectly equipped because the suicidal man was there and you showed your concern. That's all there is to it. Christ in you the Hope of Glory will easily do the rest No need to worry. You can be totally confident because you have stepped into the Divine Presence with extreme ease. Just open your mouth and Almighty God will fill it and he cares not what your "qulifications" are---even if you got your certificate over the internet.

namaste

Nice!........right on bro! I totally agree. Having been in this situation I know what you are saying is true; If you can communitcate the love of God to the hurting person, God does the rest. Amen brother.

[Coolhand]

I am not sure how and why you asked that question. Did I say life and what it throws at people is easy. Did I or anyone else say a ministers job was easy? It does seem to be picked out of the air, but lets play along.

The first thing you do is listen, using all the active listening skills you have. Treat them with warmth, genuineness and empathy. Offer help to solve any issues. Do not preach at them, listen to what they have to say and only give your view if they want it. You can ask if they want it. If they are still set on doing themselves in and wanting to leave then, get a professional in (police preferably as they are good at getting the ball rolling with other professionals and are more likely to keep them safe until they come). 

Being able to build a relationship with them, showing you care, and listen, is a must.

I am giving it brief here and there is a lot of differing directions it could go. I do not know what formal training you have with someone threatening suicide. I have 38 years working in mental health and formal qualifications in counselling and therapy and have been in the situation many times over the years. Even I have to say that sometimes things do not work for the best (although mostly they have). You just have to try.

 

Nice Pete!

[Pete]

Nice Pete!

I know I did not say about praying and offering to pray with them (and there is no harm offering (IMO), but I gave a generalised answer. Just because someone turns up at a church does not always mean they have faith or even want to know. Churches do seem to have an open door where many other places do not.

I knew a dying man who asked to see a priest. When the priest arrived and he had checked out he was a priest, he swore and cursed at him and eventually (impolitely) told him to go. It seems all he wanted to do was get his own back on the priests he had experienced in the past. He died shortly after.

Like I say one cannot take anything for granted. I felt sorry for both the dying man who had such experiences in his life and also the priest who probably would not of approved of what had gone on.

Life is anything but easy (IMO).

[Coolhand]

I know I did not say about praying and offering to pray with them (and there is no harm offering (IMO), but I gave a generalised answer. Just because someone turns up at a church does not always mean they have faith or even want to know. Churches do seem to have an open door where many other places do not.

I knew a dying man who asked to see a priest. When the priest arrived and he had checked out he was a priest, he swore and cursed at him and eventually (impolitely) told him to go. It seems all he wanted to do was get his own back on the priests he had experienced in the past. He died shortly after.

Like I say one cannot take anything for granted. I felt sorry for both the dying man who had such experiences in his life and also the priest who probably would not of approved of what had gone on.

Life is anything but easy (IMO).

You got that right brother!

[Pete]

Back to the topic of Liberal Christianity and a question in return.

The story and person is fictional but the examples I give are sadly not unusual.

Ken's mother was an addict and had to give up looking after him from a very young age (5yrs). He was cared for in a home where he was reported to have been sexually abused many times. He ran away and lived on the streets as soon after his entry in to his teens and took to taking Heroin, and crack. His friends on the street gradually died from various drug problems they had until he was alone and friendless. He was very street wise and knew how to pull of a scam and was a petty thief, which made him unpopular and also got him in prison at times. Trusting other people was a big issue for him and so he always kept them at an emotional distance. Life was what ever he could get and it mattered little who it came from. In his late teens he believed he was going to die as all his friends had done. He suffered much emotionally trauma but was difficult to help, because he was so independently minded and would not allow other people into his life. One night, he took an overdose. He possibly wanted to be found and rescued but unfortunately those he knew were late that night.

We have no record of Ken ever believing in a God or even talking about a faith.

His carer prayed for him and asked God to have mercy on Ken.

As it is likely Ken did not call on Jesus' did she pray in vain and does Ken remain condemned by God as he had in this life?

Edited January 11, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

Back to the topic of Liberal Christianity and a question in return.

The story and person is fictional but the examples I give are sadly not unusual.

Ken's mother was an addict and had to give up looking after him from a very young age (5yrs). He was cared for in a home where he was reported to have been sexually abused many times. He ran away and lived on the streets as soon after his entry in to his teens and took to taking Heroin, and crack. His friends on the street gradually died from various drug problems they had until he was alone and friendless. He was very street wise and knew how to pull of a scam and was a petty thief, which made him unpopular and also got him in prison at times. Trusting other people was a big issue for him and so he always kept them at an emotional distance. Life was what ever he could get and it mattered little who it came from. In his late teens he believed he was going to die as all his friends had done. He suffered much emotionally trauma but was difficult to help, because he was so independently minded and would not allow other people into his life. One night, he took an overdose. He possibly wanted to be found and rescued but unfortunately those he knew was late that night.

We have no record of Ken ever believing in a God or even talking about a faith.

His carer prayed for him and asked God to have mercy on Ken.

As it is likely Ken did not call on Jesus' did she pray in vain and does Ken remain condemned by God as he had in this life?

A lot of children never get to feel what love and security means. How could they ever comprehend what the love and security of God is unless they experience God directly. How coud they be condemned. It's like punishing a blind man with one leg for not finishing a race.