Epic Debate Over God's Existance

[RevBogovac]

32 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Just as the Pharaoh chose to kill Hebrew infants, he also had the option of freely choosing to comply with God or letting Egyptian infants die.

And if you recall, God left the Pharaoh at the bottom of the Red Sea.

 

Again the hostage-taker-argument? That's weak. (And we're running around in circles.)

 

I can not come to any other conclusion that that a god who knowingly kills infants is a bad entity by my morals. But obviously you only "believe" the bibals ethics, that's your choice.

 

No one's arguing Pharaoh eventually didn't get what he was due. But killing an entire nation's innocent first born is not "good". And that is what your god says he did. That is not "good" by my intrinsic morals. And not by anyone who has any intrinsic morals. But hey, nice ethics that book is conveying!

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

 

1. Exodus 4:21
   The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
2. Exodus 7:3
   But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
3. Exodus 7:13
   Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

Edited July 15, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

1. Exodus 4:21
   The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
2. Exodus 7:3
   But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
3. Exodus 7:13
   Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

 

Wow, that's really messed up! So he willingly "worked on" Pharaoh knowing he would be killing babies?!?

 

And people still call that god "good"... Wow... just: wow... 🤮

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

54 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Wow, that's really messed up! So he willingly "worked on" Pharaoh knowing he would be killing babies?!?

 

And people still call that god "good"... Wow... just: wow... 🤮

 

 

 

 

It's God's game, playing both sides.  God gives Mosses orders -- and "harden's" Pharaoh's heart at the same time.  There are other supporting quotes, if you need them.  The short version is that God is a monster.  He's pulling the puppet's strings on both sides.  He is controlling both sides.  On top of that, the depraved All Knowing One, obviously knows the outcome in advance.

 

This is why it's good to read the Bible for yourself.  After that, nobody can lie to you about the contents.  It is what it is, and much of it is disgusting.  Just read it cover to cover like any other book.  If you're not an Atheist now, you will be.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Seeker]

Or a Maltheist.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Or a Maltheist.

 

 

 

I don't hate God, or Dracula, or Captain Ahab, or any other fictional character.       

 

 

[Seeker]

I know you don't.  I was pointing out that atheism is not the inevitable outcome.From the passages quoted above (and others),  it is a reasonable possibility that God exists and is a complete **.

 

[Pete]

14 minutes ago, Seeker said:

I know you don't.  I was pointing out that atheism is not the inevitable outcome.From the passages quoted above (and others),  it is a reasonable possibility that God exists and is a complete **.

 

If it is reasonable possibility that God exists then without quoting from the bronze age book of dubious roots and explanations, one shred of evidence that the only explanation for it is a god. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 minutes ago, Seeker said:

I know you don't.  I was pointing out that atheism is not the inevitable outcome.From the passages quoted above (and others),  it is a reasonable possibility that God exists and is a complete **.

 

 

 

Does it actually matter whether or not God exists?  God neither helps nor hinders.  Rewards or punishes.  That leaves me with a big steaming helping of -- So what?  Sure God could exist.  I need a reason to care.  I am clear, that getting caught up in the obsessions of others, is not a good idea.

 

 

This is generally the point, where a true believer gives me the usual threats.  I'm so bored with arguing.  Beyond love and hate -- there is not giving a crap.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

24 minutes ago, Pete said:

If it is reasonable possibility that God exists then without quoting from the bronze age book of dubious roots and explanations, one shred of evidence that the only explanation for it is a god. 

 

 

Religions die and their gods fall out of fashion.  Atheism is constantly reborn.

 

 

 

[Pete]

I don't care if someone believes in the tooth fairy or father Christmas.  There is no evidence for either that is not man made. Mankind makes gods and mystic theories. Yet, when it is suggested that I should accept either as fact or bad things will happen then I think it is time for the shrink to call. The thing about a religion which is also based on mysticism is that without the intervention and activity of man it does not exist. Religion is a mass adoption of a mystic explanation that if it was just adopted by one then they would be treated for schizophrenia. Mankind made the tooth fairy, father Christmas, and gods for which there is no other evidence for.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I don't care if someone believes in the tooth fairy or father Christmas.  There is no evidence for either that is not man made. Mankind makes gods and mystic theories. Yet, when it is suggested that I should accept either as fact or bad things will happen then I think it is time for the shrink to call. The thing about a religion which is also based on mysticism is that without the intervention and activity of man it does not exist. Religion is a mass adoption of a mystic explanation that if it was just adopted by one then they would be treated for schizophrenia. Mankind made the tooth fairy, father Christmas, and gods for which there is no other evidence for.

 

 

"When we speak to God, it's called prayer.  When God speaks to us, it's called schizophrenia."       

 

 

[Key]

On 7/13/2020 at 3:29 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Free will is an interesting topic in it's own right.  If we are going to do that, I think it should have it's own thread.  Where would you put it?

 

 

 

I vaguely recall someone had tried that once, years ago. Don't think it fared well, though. It broke down as usual along the lines of Christians vs. everyone else, thus the tangents drifted off topic frequently. I don't think the subject was ever reasonably resolved.

Not sure where I'd place it. Maybe under Philosophy?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Key said:

I vaguely recall someone had tried that once, years ago. Don't think it fared well, though. It broke down as usual along the lines of Christians vs. everyone else, thus the tangents drifted off topic frequently. I don't think the subject was ever reasonably resolved.

Not sure where I'd place it. Maybe under Philosophy?

 

 

This thread has already wandered.  It can wander some more.

 

Alright:  Do we have free will?  Do we have the illusion of free will?

 

I would like to start things with a physics question.  What is the nature of time?  I'm fairly certain that the past is fixed and unchanging.  Could the future also be fixed and unchanging?  If the future is as unchanging as the past -- then free will is illusory.  Like the pages in a book.  We can turn the pages back to an earlier chapter.  We can turn the pages ahead to a later chapter.  We can't change the story.  I don't know that this is the case.  I don't know.

 

That should get us started.     

 

 

[Dan56]

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

1. Exodus 4:21
   The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
2. Exodus 7:3
   But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    
3. Exodus 7:13
   Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    

 

On least a couple occasions, Pharaoh had initially hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder, so imo it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt.

 

18 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This is why it's good to read the Bible for yourself.  After that, nobody can lie to you about the contents.

 

This is why its important to read the whole story, otherwise we fall into the trap of picking selective verses to emphasize a biased narrative.

[Seeker]

Yeah, because complete annihilation would have so helped all the ordinary Egyptians who had nothing to do with the decision.

 

[Dan56]

10 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

This thread has already wandered.  It can wander some more.

 

Alright:  Do we have free will?  Do we have the illusion of free will?

 

I would like to start things with a physics question.  What is the nature of time?  I'm fairly certain that the past is fixed and unchanging.  Could the future also be fixed and unchanging?  If the future is as unchanging as the past -- then free will is illusory.  Like the pages in a book.  We can turn the pages back to an earlier chapter.  We can turn the pages ahead to a later chapter.  We can't change the story.  I don't know that this is the case.  I don't know.

 

That should get us started.     

 

 

Before, the debate boiled down to; Since God knows the past and the future (Isaiah 46:10), we cannot truly have free will.

I personally believe that our destiny is not set in stone, "Whosoever believeth" ( John 3:16) is a choice that we freely make.

As Sarah Connor said in the Terminator movie, "We have no fate but what we make". Our future (eternity) is up to us.

 

[Dan56]

1 minute ago, Seeker said:

Yeah, because complete annihilation would have so helped all the ordinary Egyptians who had nothing to do with the decision.

 

 

Everyone is culpable.. Who threw the Hebrew new borns into the Nile? What army was chasing the Israelites to kill them. An evil ruler without subordinates to execute his acts of evil is powerless.

In your judgement, the Nazi guards who forced Jews into the gas chambers were just innocent German citizens because they had nothing to do with the decision. 

Following  orders does not exempt a person of responsibility.  

[cuchulain]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Everyone is culpable.. Who threw the Hebrew new borns into the Nile? What army was chasing the Israelites to kill them. An evil ruler without subordinates to execute his acts of evil is powerless.

In your judgement, the Nazi guards who forced Jews into the gas chambers were just innocent German citizens because they had nothing to do with the decision. 

Following  orders does not exempt a person of responsibility.  

No.  But the baker, the cobbler, the writers and musicians and multitudes who had nothing to do with anything weren't Nazis.  In your view it's all in or none.

[Pete]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

On least a couple occasions, Pharaoh had initially hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder, so imo it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt.

 

 

This is why its important to read the whole story, otherwise we fall into the trap of picking selective verses to emphasize a biased narrative.

Killing all the first born. Is that killing the guilty. As for picking out verses to justify a bias I think you are very guilty of that. Your god is not righteous or loving.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Pete