VonNoble

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ANY culture that permits slavery is morally flawed.    Support your conclusion.

 

:dunce:

 

von

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I usually try to avoid sweeping statements these days, so to start with something so absolute puts me back on my heels to start.  It inherently pushes my brain to attempt to discover if there is ever a good reason for slavery.  The definition of culture I believe to be espoused by this particular question is the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group.  The definition of moral is of or relating to principles of right and wrong behavior.  So the question as I understand it is any race, religion, or social group that doesn't actively oppose with their customary beliefs or social form the practice of owning another individual in a dominant fashion is wrong behavior.  

In essence, the question is self defeating.  The proposition it lays out is that someone must dominantly determine that slavery is wrong and enforce that determination upon those who would have otherwise, which inherently makes the latter group fall into the category of slave...which is exactly what the question presupposes as wrong behavior.  

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and to make this a circular argument,what is your position to make slavery right?

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37 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

The proposition it lays out is that someone must dominantly determine that slavery is wrong and enforce that determination upon those who would have otherwise, which inherently makes the latter group fall into the category of slave...which is exactly what the question presupposes as wrong behavior.  

Consider a pitcher and a batter. The pitcher does not want the batter to hit the ball. The batter does not want the pitcher to get a strike past him. Each works to oppose the will of the other, yet neither is enslaved by the other.  Neither permits the other to win, but neither really forces the other to lose. 

 

A slave who runs away does not enslave his former master by refusing to permit the enslavement.

Edited by mererdog

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1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

 

ANY culture that permits slavery is morally flawed.    Support your conclusion.

Stop trying to trick us into doing your homework for you!

 

 

Personally, I think all culture is amoral. Morality, I believe, exists only at the level of the individual, and a lot of our cultural trappings serve only to hide that fact, encouraging us to trade morals for mores...

Edited by mererdog

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Ravi Zekarias points out that when you ask a question you must examine the assumptions you are making when asking the question. as to whether slavery is morally right or wrong would include the assumption that man has authority to pass judgement which the Bible clearly states we do not. so judgement of a culture as to their morality should be left to God and God alone

 

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11 minutes ago, micha_el said:

as to whether slavery is morally right or wrong would include the assumption that man has authority to pass judgement which the Bible clearly states we do not. so judgement of a culture as to their morality should be left to God and God alone

 

From my perspective, 1 Corinthians 6 seems to contradict you. I would love it if you could explain how you integrate those passages into your understanding about the Bible and judgement.

Edited by mererdog

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37 minutes ago, mererdog said:

Stop trying to trick us into doing your homework for you!

 

Oh that was an excellent laugh :clap2:

.... thank you!!!

 

AFTER we turned in the quiz the prof opened the topic for discussion.

 

She was horrified when no one in the room would agree with the statement as written.    

The next (40) min was a free-for-all with a BUNCH of arguments how one could in extreme circumstances justify slavery.

 

The ONLY WHEN it is critical for survival group moved to one side of the room.   The ...it is never okay for economic gain moved to the other side of the room.    

 

And the misfits, oddballs and undecided group (referred to as the monkeys in the middle) .... gathered in the center of the room.

 

The monkeys in the middle were the largest group.

 

von

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1corinthian 6 is actually saying that it is wrong to have lawsuits against your brothers and sisters and that we should resolve them amongst ourselves and not take the to mans courts.Matthew 7 verses 1 through 5 are the teachings of Jesus regarding judgement of others.

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1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

The next (40) min was a free-for-all with a BUNCH of arguments how one could in extreme circumstances justify slavery.

People can justify just about anything, given enough motivation. To clarify my postition: Slavery is always wrong. My conscience will have it no other way.

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59 minutes ago, micha_el said:

1corinthian 6 is actually saying that it is wrong to have lawsuits against your brothers and sisters and that we should resolve them amongst ourselves and not take the to mans courts.Matthew 7 verses 1 through 5 are the teachings of Jesus regarding judgement of others.

How do you resolve conflicts without judging? Does it not require saying "You are in the right" and "You are in the wrong"? Does it not require saying "You should not have done that" and "You did what you should have done"? How can you be just if you do not judge?

Sorry if I seem strident. Your perspective is strange to me and I'm trying to get a handle on it.

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Where we stand depends on where we sit.  If you want arguments for slavery -- ask a slave owner.  If you want arguments against slavery -- ask a slave.  

 

If you want to find someone so ignorant, that he has no opinion -- ask an American.  

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23 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Where we stand depends on where we sit.  If you want arguments for slavery -- ask a slave owner.  If you want arguments against slavery -- ask a slave.  

 

If you want to find someone so ignorant, that he has no opinion -- ask an American.  

Thank you, Jonathan H. B. Lobl. I will do that.

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One student argued we are all slaves (not endearing himself by calling the professor the slave master. )    Another argued with him (down a fresh set of one way tracks) that we are all slaves to electronics or money.

 

Another suggested slavery could be justified if you needed to save your own children.... if it were your only viable means to feed your own kids

 

Yet another pointed to the nation of Austrialia as a point of origin ....noting not only prisoners worked to going the nation, but also indentured servants....who were forced to labor.   In his version of things they likely faired better than dying in a jail cell in London.

 

Another likened the plains Indians going on rading parties to bring home unrelated women to insure the did not mate with bloodlines too close to their own....as a form of enslavement common to all tribes.  With no buying  or selling involved.  But enslavement nonetheless.  And perhaps culturally necessary.

 

Or any race who chooses to bring home foreign children to raise as their own to perpetuate the tribes numbers....kidnaps as a form of survival.   

 

And one last speaker noted after a nuclear blast .... was fertile people (non-sterile after radiation) would be coveted and be needed to reproduce ...which would insure they would be bought and sold.

 

Whew.     My head hurt for awhile after that class :giveup:

 

i came home and napped.    It was both necessary and sufficient:blink:

 

von

 

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I take it as a given, that when people own slaves; they do themselves great harm in the process.  It is not possible to harm others, without being harmed in the process.  

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read the Bible if you would like to understand my perspective. it is a much more authoritative source than what I am

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1 hour ago, micha_el said:

read the Bible if you would like to understand my perspective. it is a much more authoritative source than what I am

In reading the Bible, I form my own perspective. That does not help me understand your perspective. Bear in mind that when I speak to Christians who have spent their whole lives studying the Bible, I find that their understandings vary, sometimes only slightly, but sometimes drastically. This specific issue of judging is one where I have encountered a lot of disagreement among Christians.

That way two people can read the same book and come away with different understandings is fascinating to me. I believe it says a lot about who we are as people, although I don't claim to know what it says about us as people... If that makes any sense?

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18 hours ago, micha_el said:

Ravi Zekarias points out that when you ask a question you must examine the assumptions you are making when asking the question. as to whether slavery is morally right or wrong would include the assumption that man has authority to pass judgement which the Bible clearly states we do not. so judgement of a culture as to their morality should be left to God and God alone

 

 

The assumption here is that the Bible has authority.  

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19 hours ago, mererdog said:

Consider a pitcher and a batter. The pitcher does not want the batter to hit the ball. The batter does not want the pitcher to get a strike past him. Each works to oppose the will of the other, yet neither is enslaved by the other.  Neither permits the other to win, but neither really forces the other to lose. 

 

A slave who runs away does not enslave his former master by refusing to permit the enslavement.

There is choice involved in the first place to play the game at its rules.  Thus the pitcher and batter both opted into the game, whereas a slave does NOT opt in.

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