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VonNoble

Have You Read It?

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It is rather surprising to me that so many who choose to debate and argue over sacred text (any of them) have not READ the document in question. Fully. Or even half of it.

Fewer still have read more than one and done their own comparison.

What, if anything, does it say about you if you base your entire life choice and morality on a book you have never read?

Of those who do read it - often they did not or do not trust their own ability to understand it and rely completely on others to explain the document to them. Initially, that may be necessary - maybe. But does it seem practical to forgo your own reason and ability to expand your knowledge base and never take ownership of the stories and messages for yourself? What, if anything does that reveal about you or the document or your originating teachers?

It doesn't matter which sacred text we are discussing. Does it seem reasonable that a deity would issue a code than not provide each follower with the key to understand it?

Just pondering all this.....thank you for any input.

Von

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It has been my experience that those who adhere to a sacred text and have not read all or part of the document and do not understand the part or parts they have read, don't really care. They are in it in order to fit into the social group they have chosen to belong to. If the leader of their faith (pastor, rabbi, mullah, etc.) says it is so, then it must be. That is if the person even cares if it is so or not.

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I found it highly amusing that when I first met my wife she professed to be a Christian, yet when asked had to admit she had never read any of the bible. She still hasn't, she has always listened to her father, whom I consider a devout Christian. He has read it thoroughly, studied it, and lived his life in what I would deem a Christian manner. That being said, she still hasn't read the book herself, and I don't know how accurate secondhand knowledge can be in this area.

As to the statement that those who haven't read it themselves usually don't care, that is typically my experience as well, with the exception of my wife who does indeed care. Always there are anomalies in what our general observations would tell us is the truth.

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I've found that I've read more of the Bible and have more knowledge of it than almost every Christian I have met in person. I've also read the Bhagavad Gita, Toa te ching, Eddas, Satanic Bible, and other writings related to spiritually, philosophy, and religion multiple times. I've also partially read others but not fully such as the Koran. Many Christians take for granted that they only have to study one book and a lot don't even do that.

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i have no problem with looking for knowledge from wherever.saddly,this is not universal.

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I think many Christians feel that if they were to read those other sacred writings "inspired buy the devil" they would be tempted and deceived.

Their Faith in their belief system is so feeble they don't want to be influenced by other information like even science for an example.

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I think many Christians feel that if they were to read those other sacred writings "inspired buy the devil" they would be tempted and deceived.

Their Faith in their belief system is so feeble they don't want to be influenced by other information like even science for an example.

Hi Fawzo,

Perhaps your point is indeed the reason. Interestingly enough - it seems there are many religions that have a "fear" of reading anything beyond the scope of their own (and they believe unique) text. As I recollect you have (as have others on this thread) read more than one sacred text....or parts of more than one. Do you find that perhaps that there is not quite as much originality in each as some believe? Particularly those who have only read one?

For example, there are those who do not realize that there are overlaps between the Bible, Torah and Quran (Koran) for example.

Over lap of characters and stories in the three documents. There are many faiths including ancient, tribal ones - of virgin births etc.........and overlaps regarding similar creation stories. The Book of Mormon has large tracts of the Bible embedded into it...and the Bible as you know - borrowed much of the old Testament from the Torah - then added a new "rest of the story" - via the New Testament You only can know this for yourself - if you read more than one. And your point re: science is well taken. Some faiths embrace it. Others fear it.

Perhaps the fear of the devil (or weakness of faith) exists in the ranks of all religions?

Von

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I’m a Rational Hedonist and a Skeptic, but I’ve studied Christian scriptures in a state university by a great Baptist man, and had a year of Bible College. I’ve studied Hebrew Scriptures for ten years in Hebrew in Israel. I’ve read the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon, and read and own the Satanic Bible. Even Anton LaVey got a lot of his ideas he put forth in the Satanic Bible from the lineage of Rational Hedonists.

I’ve known Christians who love to let in Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons when they come knocking at the door, because it’s a kind of “sport” to get them to use the “Christian” Bible in order to “prove” their arguments. They didn't go to church, and the only time they apparently came to (religious) life was when those folks knocked on the door.

But these same Christians will argue into the ground with Messianic Jews about cutting off their Jewish roots of the Bible regarding Holidays and lifestyle.

Chassidic Jews stay cloistered, won't read anything non-religious and won’t listen to anyone beside their own Rav.

The Muslims, who came waaaaay after Judaism and Christianity, apparently have forgotten and not read about Muhammad’s original affinity with Judaism and respect for “People of the Book” (Christians and Jews). They seem to be following charismatic men with personal political agendas and not reading for themselves what the Koran says.

I’ve found over the years that I know more than a lot of people about their self-proclaimed religion and that may simply be because I’m curious about them all and not prone to pick and choose.

I do think Jewish and Christian leadership tend not to want their flock to explore Zoroastrianism, Babylonian, Sumerian or Egyptian writings, as if their religion will lose something.

I know some of you will know where I'm going here, but I can't resist:

If I were to say, “I’m thinking about someone who ….

1. Was born of a virgin.

2. Had a foster father.

3. Was of royal descent.

4. Birth accompanied by star gazers who followed by bearing gifts.

5. Birth announced by angels.

6. Someone tried to murder him as an infant.

7. Baptized at age 30 at a river.

8. Resists temptation by “the evil one”.

9. Had 12 followers.

10. Performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.

11. Raised someone from the grave.

12. Killed by crucifixion.

13. Accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixion.

14. Buried in a tomb.

15. Resurrected after 3 days.

16. Resurrection was announced by three women.

17. Was given the title, “anointed one”.

Most Christians would answer, “Jesus”.

But . . . the original answer is . . . the Egyptian god, Horus.

If you're a Christian, would knowing that "take away" from the wonders and "truth" of Jesus?

What’s wrong with being able to admit that the Hebrews probably picked up the flood story from the Babylonians (Epic of Gilgamesh) while in Babylonian exile?

I don’t know, for me, I’d think it would give me more awe and respect to understand the roots and ancient origins of that religion.

Reading and learning new things sometimes takes people out of their religions’ comfort zones - but we were given curiosity. Isn't it better to grow ... beyond, then to settle for the mud pie on our side of the fence? There's so much out there. I don't think questioning is bad.

Edited by Dianna

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I know some of you will know where I'm going here, but I can't resist:

If I were to say, “I’m thinking about someone who ….

1. Was born of a virgin.

2. Had a foster father.

3. Was of royal descent.

4. Birth accompanied by star gazers who followed by bearing gifts.

5. Birth announced by angels.

6. Someone tried to murder him as an infant.

7. Baptized at age 30 at a river.

8. Resists temptation by “the evil one”.

9. Had 12 followers.

10. Performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.

11. Raised someone from the grave.

12. Killed by crucifixion.

13. Accompanied by two thieves at the crucifixion.

14. Buried in a tomb.

15. Resurrected after 3 days.

16. Resurrection was announced by three women.

17. Was given the title, “anointed one”.

Most Christians would answer, “Jesus”.

But . . . the original answer is . . . the Egyptian god, Horus.

If you're a Christian, would knowing that "take away" from the wonders and "truth" of Jesus?

What’s wrong with being able to admit that the Hebrews probably picked up the flood story from the Babylonians (Epic of Gilgamesh) while in Babylonian exile?

A close look reveals very few real similarities between Jesus and Horus.. http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-horus-myth/

Also, other historical records of a great flood would seem to lend credibility to the biblical account.

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My own response was in regard to VonNoble's :

Do you find that perhaps that there is not quite as much originality in each as some believe? Particularly those who have only read one?

For example, there are those who do not realize that there are overlaps between the Bible, Torah and Quran (Koran) for example.

Over lap of characters and stories in the three documents. There are many faiths including ancient, tribal ones - of virgin births etc.........and overlaps regarding similar creation stories. The Book of Mormon has large tracts of the Bible embedded into it...and the Bible as you know - borrowed much of the old Testament from the Torah - then added a new "rest of the story" - via the New Testament

The more I've learned and studied other religions over the years, the more I've seen these overlapping teachings. Maybe those who strongly adhere to one religion don't see it (the forest for the trees), but when you are secure enough to step back and compare your religion to others, you can sometimes catch a glimpse of the "bigger picture". It's not meant to make less of what you believe, but instead make it . . . more . . . That what you believe and thought was the picture is actually an intricate part of the bigger picture.

And I could just totally be explaining this awkwardly. :wacko:

Thanks for the link, Dan! :)

:read:

I read the refutations as I have on other Christian apologetics sites before. It was kind of what I expected from a Christian site for Christians :P but it was interesting reading.

I can understand the difficulties potential refuters run into trying to disprove the similarities of Horus and Jesus since most of the primary resources are from pre-Christian era scrolls and texts. The types destroyed in that horrible fire at the famous Library at Alexandria.

A wealth of known (at the time) ancient knowledge and information was destroyed then and over the centuries during the Dark Ages by religious zealots who wanted to destroy "pagan" teachings, as well as deliberate censorship from Biblical scholars who didn't want to deal with legitimate questions when Christianity was trying to distance itself and define itself separately (they do it this way, so we'll do it this way) from some of its pagan influences. The only reason some of this "alternative" knowledge survived was it had been copied by scribes and taken to study in the Indian and Arab countries.

I won't hijack a thread for Horus and Jesus as that is not the topic. but I'd enjoy a friendly discussion about it in PM with you Dan. I have solid, historic documentations/reasons for my beliefs, not just bytes copied and pasted from Wikipedia or some conspiracy or quack website.

And yes, I totally agree. Other historical records and myths indicate a great flood and the Biblical account is but one of them. There are flood stories on every continent.

There's a lot of real information out there - it's not all contained in any one holy book.

To me, the bigger picture is so much more awesome.

Edited by Dianna

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Dianna,

I didn't hit the "quote" button on this one as my comment is directed at your entire message of both postings.

Thank you. I have concluded very much the same thing - and did it via the same protocol.

Bravo to you for both postings. I concur with your conclusions.

Von

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To study the religions of the world is one of my passions. I have discovered in my studies many beautiful things as well as some not so beautiful things, not just in other religions but also in mine. So I have made adjustments in the way I practice my religion. I also discovered that many of the Gurus (Teachers) of my religion have also done the same thing throughout the long history of our faith. Sometimes we must modify in order to survive as a valid path.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

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