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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I'm not clear on your point.  The primary American government response, was denial.

 

Primary, yes... but by now they're doing much of the same as Europe is doing (Lockdown et cetera). Which I find strange because I actually agree with Trump that we have to be careful not to choose a cure which is worse than the desease (and therefore I like Taiwan's method more).

 

On that note: scientists have engineered a mask that will save millions of lives:

 

donald-trump-mouth-duct-taped.jpg

Edited by RevBogovac

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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It is a clever design.  Alas, the weakness is that it is not being applied.

 

:mellow:

 

 

Nay. The weakness is that it can be removed. :whist:

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3 hours ago, Key said:

Nay. The weakness is that it can be removed. :whist:

 

 

In truth, the President is only a symptom.  The problem is the electorate, that voted him into office.  We must not confuse cause and effect.

 

:sigh2:

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In truth, the President is only a symptom.  The problem is the electorate, that voted him into office.  We must not confuse cause and effect.

 

:sigh2:

 

True, it was a silly joke...

 

If "we" (as citizens) were more involved than maybe we would have had better government (like in Taiwan; they are still afraid of the "red danger"... they actually have to do what is in the best interest of their population, hence their VERY appropriate reaction to this current health crisis - and their previous experience with SARS/MERS).

 

 

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4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

True, it was a silly joke...

 

1.  If "we" (as citizens) were more involved than maybe we would have had better government

 

2.  (like in Taiwan; they are still afraid of the "red danger"... they actually have to do what is in the best interest of their population, hence their VERY appropriate reaction to this current health crisis - and their previous experience with SARS/MERS).

 

 

 

 

There are two separate issues at play here.

 

1.  I'm not clear about your part of the world.  In America, I'm very clear.  Americans, at least in great number, are passionate about the lines between Republicans and Democrats.  I don't think "greater involvement" is the answer.  I suspect we should leave bad enough alone.  At least until some of the irrational hatreds burn off.

 

2.  Your specific example.  Taiwan is doomed to assimilate with China.  When the British left, after their 99 year "lease" expired, the terms of the new contract gave Taiwan 50 years of autonomy.  The riots are because of China's impatience.  They are trying to move things along faster.  What is 50 years in affairs of the world?  Nothing.  Fast or slow, China will prevail.  Unless China unravels.  There are indications.  I think it could happen.  The Soviet Union fell apart.  Yugoslavia came apart at the seams.  Why not China?

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The USSR was made up many eastern block countries who never wanted to join but were passed on to Russia after the second world war. No one had the will to take on Russia back then. These countries were having their national identities strip away from them and so there was antipathy towards Russia. There was also a lot of fear as people would be spirited away in the night and sent to Siberia or shot and buried. A friend told me if you wanted to joke about Russia you closed all the windows and doors and went to the centre of your home to whisper it.

So when the wall collapsed so did the control of Russia and could not wait to get out.

China is one country and has one identity except Tibet. Many living in fear. It gives out the most death sentences and can hold court without your presence and later pick you up in a van and kill you with no appeal. I hope China does collapse but I don't see it for a long time. I wish I did.

Edited by Pete

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39 minutes ago, Pete said:

The USSR was made up many eastern block countries who never wanted to join but were passed on to Russia after the second world war. No one had the will to take on Russia back then. These countries were having their national identities strip away from them and so there was antipathy towards Russia. There was also a lot of fear as people would be spirited away in the night and sent to Siberia or shot and buried. A friend told me if you wanted to joke about Russia you closed all the windows and doors and went to the centre of your home to whisper it.

So when the wall collapsed so did the control of Russia and could not wait to get out.

China is one country and has one identity except Tibet. Many living in fear. It gives out the most death sentences and can hold court without your presence and later pick you up in a van and kill you with no appeal. I hope China does collapse but I don't see it for a long time. I wish I did.

 

 

 

China has a long complicated history with different ethnic groups.  It's not so simple.  If the economy collapses, old frictions could emerge.  Some of them run deep.

 

:mellow:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

There are two separate issues at play here.

 

1.  I'm not clear about your part of the world.  In America, I'm very clear.  Americans, at least in great number, are passionate about the lines between Republicans and Democrats.  I don't think "greater involvement" is the answer.  I suspect we should leave bad enough alone.  At least until some of the irrational hatreds burn off.

 

2.  Your specific example.  Taiwan is doomed to assimilate with China.  When the British left, after their 99 year "lease" expired, the terms of the new contract gave Taiwan 50 years of autonomy.  The riots are because of China's impatience.  They are trying to move things along faster.  What is 50 years in affairs of the world?  Nothing.  Fast or slow, China will prevail.  Unless China unravels.  There are indications.  I think it could happen.  The Soviet Union fell apart.  Yugoslavia came apart at the seams.  Why not China?

 

:mellow:

 

Hmkay... I'll leave the USA to you guys... what I do know - from personal experience - is that in the former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRJ, as Yugoslavia was formally known) and in the "eastern blok" in general control was not absolute. The government(-s) would have wanted so, but it wasn't. It was a flawed system that relied heavily on humans (turning on other humans, with all the nice side-effects that can be expected). Nowadays - however - we have "electronic mass surveillance" which is "managed" by logic/algorithms and is much more effective (in China, for instance).

 

The (future) problem that is coming to reality now is:

 

1. People all over the world will "embrace" this "electronic mass surveillance" en masse because after the (perceived) threat of terrorism and child pornography we now have "health" to consider. And who can be against measures that are there to keep us healthy, right?

 

2. After the current "electronic mass surveillance" that can "only" see where you are and what you are doing; the next generation of "electronic mass surveillance" will be able to see how you feel. How? Well simple: because of the screening for health issues we will gladly provide our electronic devices with our biometrics (like heart rate, body temperature and blood pressure). Algorithms can quite simply derive our "mental states' from that. Imagine one day opening the door and the nice men asking you: Why did you get so wound up when watching the last speach of our great leader?" 

 

We're not talking about China any more... (but it is still interesting to see that "the west" chose the "Chinese" approach over the - very effective - "Taiwanese" approach... why did they do that?)

 

 

PS I do think you confused Taiwan with Hong Kong by the way....

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52 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Hmkay... I'll leave the USA to you guys... what I do know - from personal experience - is that in the former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRJ, as Yugoslavia was formally known) and in the "eastern blok" in general control was not absolute. The government(-s) would have wanted so, but it wasn't. It was a flawed system that relied heavily on humans (turning on other humans, with all the nice side-effects that can be expected). Nowadays - however - we have "electronic mass surveillance" which is "managed" by logic/algorithms and is much more effective (in China, for instance).

 

The (future) problem that is coming to reality now is:

 

1. People all over the world will "embrace" this "electronic mass surveillance" en masse because after the (perceived) threat of terrorism and child pornography we now have "health" to consider. And who can be against measures that are there to keep us healthy, right?

 

2. After the current "electronic mass surveillance" that can "only" see where you are and what you are doing; the next generation of "electronic mass surveillance" will be able to see how you feel. How? Well simple: because of the screening for health issues we will gladly provide our electronic devices with our biometrics (like heart rate, body temperature and blood pressure). Algorithms can quite simply derive our "mental states' from that. Imagine one day opening the door and the nice men asking you: Why did you get so wound up when watching the last speach of our great leader?" 

 

We're not talking about China any more... (but it is still interesting to see that "the west" chose the "Chinese" approach over the - very effective - "Taiwanese" approach... why did they do that?)

 

 

PS I do think you confused Taiwan with Hong Kong by the way....

 

 

You're right.  They did fuse in my mind.  Still, China wants their "renegade province" back.  It's an odd, complicated relationship.

 

The State of Israel is using people's smart phones to track their movements.  The pretext is they are tracking the Corona virus.  As you say.  Think of all the health apps on a smart phone.  Temperature, Pulse, Blood Pressure, etc.  

 

:whist:

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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18 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] The State of Israel is using people's smart phones to track their movements.  The pretext is they are tracking the Corona virus.  As you say.  Think of all the health apps on a smart phone.  Temperature, Pulse, Blood Pressure, etc.  

 

:whist:

 

Now we seem to be getting on to something? Thought police? :coffee:

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Never mind me - HK vs Taiwan already resolved.

 

 

Edited by Seeker
Already spotted.

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4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Now we seem to be getting on to something? Thought police? :coffee:

 

 

Not yet.  Not even a red flag.  Maybe a pink flag.  Sometimes, science fiction comes true.  I'm thinking of George Orwell's "1984".  It's something to think about.  You sent out the link for the "killbots video on Youtube.  

 

:whist:

 

The pandemic has pushed issues like employment, jobs and work onto the back burner.  I think they are still hot.  Something else to continue.

 

:D

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

So that is where Dan went.  Must have been the wrong brand after all.

 

 

Dan was here to harvest souls for Christ.  My guess is that he saw it wasn't happening.

 

:mellow:

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Not yet.  Not even a red flag.  Maybe a pink flag.  Sometimes, science fiction comes true.  I'm thinking of George Orwell's "1984".  It's something to think about.  You sent out the link for the "killbots video on Youtube.  

 

:whist:

 

The pandemic has pushed issues like employment, jobs and work onto the back burner.  I think they are still hot.  Something else to continue.

 

:D

 

 

Why don't you think it's a red flag? It's a (very) small step from biometrics (measuring your vitals through your connected devices) to combining them to (already gathered data like) knowing where you are and what you are doing and then deriving insights into your "state of mind" while doing that there... 

 

Yes, that (employment, jobs et cetera) is exactly what triggered me into thinking why are our governments more concerned with doing things like the Chinese did (mass social "distancing", and all the fall out that that brings) instead of the way the Taiwanese government did (extensive testing and targeted isolation which actually is more effective and has less fallout)...? Just doesn't make sense...

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30 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Why don't you think it's a red flag? It's a (very) small step from biometrics (measuring your vitals through your connected devices) to combining them to (already gathered data like) knowing where you are and what you are doing and then deriving insights into your "state of mind" while doing that there... 

 

Yes, that (employment, jobs et cetera) is exactly what triggered me into thinking why are our governments more concerned with doing things like the Chinese did (mass social "distancing", and all the fall out that that brings) instead of the way the Taiwanese government did (extensive testing and targeted isolation which actually is more effective and has less fallout)...? Just doesn't make sense...

 

It could be made to work now, on targeted individuals.  On everybody?  Present day computer systems are not up to the job.  Even with modern AI, the crush of that much data is too great.

 

Of course, it doesn't make sense.  Government policy and economics, have taken on the characteristics of a weather system.  Nobody is in charge.  The various forces have taken on a life of their own.  

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It could be made to work now, on targeted individuals.  On everybody?  Present day computer systems are not up to the job.  Even with modern AI, the crush of that much data is too great.

 

Of course, it doesn't make sense.  Government policy and economics, have taken on the characteristics of a weather system.  Nobody is in charge.  The various forces have taken on a life of their own.  

 

:mellow:

 

Yes, on everybody. China has actually proven that. First the data is not that BIG. It's not like they would be storing everything in pictures and video. Simply storing location data, temperature, blood pressure et cetera does not get that big (even on 7 billion people). Further more, China has actually perfected the algorithms that take - for instance - certain body points in the face and "only" store the combination of those points for someones facial recognition (and have implemented that in their surveillance technology and "social rehabilitation" programs). So again, not all that big/new/impossible...

 

And I like your analogy, because although "nobody is in charge", in the mean time there is technology to - again, for instance - induce rain. And we all know of the effects CO (reduction) can have on (even) the whole climate... So, although "nobody is in charge" that doesn't mean people are not manipulating things... does it? 

 

:coffee:

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51 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Yes, on everybody. China has actually proven that. First the data is not that BIG. It's not like they would be storing everything in pictures and video. Simply storing location data, temperature, blood pressure et cetera does not get that big (even on 7 billion people). Further more, China has actually perfected the algorithms that take - for instance - certain body points in the face and "only" store the combination of those points for someones facial recognition (and have implemented that in their surveillance technology and "social rehabilitation" programs). So again, not all that big/new/impossible...

 

And I like your analogy, because although "nobody is in charge", in the mean time there is technology to - again, for instance - induce rain. And we all know of the effects CO (reduction) can have on (even) the whole climate... So, although "nobody is in charge" that doesn't mean people are not manipulating things... does it? 

 

:coffee:

 

 

 

Not everything that China does is high tech.  Their experiment in social engineering, through people's social credit score, is a powerful manipulation method. People with a low score have restricted rights and abilities.  High speed trains, for instance, are forbidden to them.  Air travel, certain hotels, etc.  People with a high score have benefits.  None of this is high tech.  This is the sort of thing, that the rest of the world should be afraid of.  It's ready to export now.

 

Of course, it blends with AI.  Combine a police helicopter with AI observation cameras -- or ground cameras -- maybe being in the vicinity of a demonstration -- for any reason -- means a lower score.

 

Attending a pro government rally, could be a really good idea.  Best to look happy and enthusiastic.  

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11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Not everything that China does is high tech.  Their experiment in social engineering, through people's social credit score, is a powerful manipulation method. People with a low score have restricted rights and abilities.  High speed trains, for instance, are forbidden to them.  Air travel, certain hotels, etc.  People with a high score have benefits.  None of this is high tech.  This is the sort of thing, that the rest of the world should be afraid of.  It's ready to export now.

 

Of course, it blends with AI.  Combine a police helicopter with AI observation cameras -- or ground cameras -- maybe being in the vicinity of a demonstration -- for any reason -- means a lower score.

 

Attending a pro government rally, could be a really good idea.  Best to look happy and enthusiastic.  

 

The facial recognition cameras and coupled databases are (high tech)... 

 

And no need for (expensive, manned) helicopters either: 

 

 

 

Don't just "look" the part. Once your ("smart wearables" transmit) body temperature, heart rate, blood pressure et cetera ('cous "we" are monitoring for viral outbreaks, right?) your state of mind will be quite easy to "read" (and store)...

 

 

 

 

 

 

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