The Exodus. How real was it?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/exodus-history-or-mythic-tale/?utm_source=mjl_maropost&utm_campaign=MJL&utm_medium=email&mpweb=1161-10178-232960

 

 

 

[Seeker]

Seems rather inconclusive.

 

[cuchulain]

Like much of the Bible...

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 4/12/2019 at 6:46 PM, Seeker said:

Seems rather inconclusive.

 

 

 

Not too me.  We can dance around the details.  The Exodus, as stated in Exodus, never happened.  There was no Mosses;  No Ten Plagues; No drowning of the Egyptian Army  -- and no wandering lost in the dessert for forty years.

 

For me, this is part of a larger picture.  No historic Adam and Eve; No historic Mosses and no historic Jesus.

 

It takes more than bald assertion, to make historic events real.  If there was real evidence for any of it -- the pious would be rubbing our faces in it.  They're not because there isn't any.

 

 

 

That leaves us with  -- Faith.                     No.          

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

Remember bush jr continually asserting wmd we're in Iraq and his opponents pointing out the flaws?  Then we .liberated. the Iraqi as if that was the goal?  Same thing.  If the wmd had been there they wouldn't have stopped showing them on the news to prove it.  Instead we got nothing.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

15 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Remember bush jr continually asserting wmd we're in Iraq and his opponents pointing out the flaws?  Then we .liberated. the Iraqi as if that was the goal?  Same thing.  If the wmd had been there they wouldn't have stopped showing them on the news to prove it.  Instead we got nothing.

 

 

Yes.  Think of all the true believers.  Digging up the Middle East, looking for proof.  What did they find?

 

Besides not being a science book -- the Bible also isn't a history book.

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

I had a teacher in high school who taught the Bible as literature.  When another kid asked about the Koran, she insisted the Bible would just be literature.  Then she had us recite, the whole time yelling hallelujah and amen...

This is the insidiousness of the religious.  They start small and then walk tall...all over other's rights.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

I had a teacher in high school who taught the Bible as literature.  When another kid asked about the Koran, she insisted the Bible would just be literature.  Then she had us recite, the whole time yelling hallelujah and amen...

This is the insidiousness of the religious.  They start small and then walk tall...all over other's rights.

 

 

Yes.  What gets me is that special smugness, that true believers have.  They have the TRUTH.  They KNOW.  You don't.

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Yes.  What gets me is that special smugness, that true believers have.  They have the TRUTH.  They KNOW.  You don't.

 

 

 

We just don't have the answers.  Guess we should just accept whatever 😂

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

47 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

We just don't have the answers.  Guess we should just accept whatever 😂

 

 

An honest question, is still better than a dishonest answer.  I don't know is still a good answer.

 

At this point in my life, the only reason I could have to care about the Bible -- is if someone I respect -- a genuine thinker -- could demonstrate real value in the Bible.

 

Look at the people on this board, who follow the Bible.  Fact free assertions and appeals to blind faith.  No thanks.

 

I've already read the Bible.  Cover to cover.  It's too late to BS me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RabbiO]

On April 15, 2019 at 6:40 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

An honest question, is still better than a dishonest answer.  I don't know is still a good answer.

 

At this point in my life, the only reason I could have to care about the Bible -- is if someone I respect -- a genuine thinker -- could demonstrate real value in the Bible.

 

Look at the people on this board, who follow the Bible.  Fact free assertions and appeals to blind faith.  No thanks.

 

I've already read the Bible.  Cover to cover.  It's too late to BS me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jon -

 

Even Israel Finkelstein, the archaeologist and co-author of The Bible Unearthed, when he conducts the family seder goes through the haggadah without editorial comment or embellishment.

 

In that spirit, I wish you and anyone who celebrates the holiday a zissen Pesach - a sweet Passover. If this Rego Park born and bred kid ever makes it back to Jackson Heights perhaps over coffee or good wine we can respectfully arm wrestle over the issue  whether there is, or is not, value in the Tanakh.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RabbiO said:

Jon -

 

Even Israel Finkelstein, the archaeologist and co-author of The Bible Unearthed, when he conducts the family seder goes through the haggadah without editorial comment or embellishment.

 

In that spirit, I wish you and anyone who celebrates the holiday a zissen Pesach - a sweet Passover. If this Rego Park born and bred kid ever makes it back to Jackson Heights perhaps over coffee or good wine we can respectfully arm wrestle over the issue  whether there is, or is not, value in the Tanakh.

 

 

Thank you, Rabbi.  While I will not be observing the event -- I wish you a happy and joyous Passover.

 

Jonathan

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

I find value to most works, whether i consider them mythology or history.  It's just a different kind of value.  I personally don't have strong associative ties to the exodus so it falls in the entertainment realm for me.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I find value to most works, whether i consider them mythology or history.  It's just a different kind of value.  I personally don't have strong associative ties to the exodus so it falls in the entertainment realm for me.

 

 

My background is Jewish.  I went through a period in my life, when my religious involvement was strong.  Prayer and study.  I had a circle of Hassidic friends.  Well, things change.  I did.  

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Exodus and Passover

 

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-exodus-effect/?utm_source=mjl_maropost&utm_campaign=MJL&utm_medium=email&mpweb=1161-10420-232960

 

 

[Coolhand]

On 4/13/2019 at 3:40 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Not too me.  We can dance around the details.  The Exodus, as stated in Exodus, never happened.  There was no Mosses;  No Ten Plagues; No drowning of the Egyptian Army  -- and no wandering lost in the dessert for forty years.

 

For me, this is part of a larger picture.  No historic Adam and Eve; No historic Mosses and no historic Jesus.

 

It takes more than bald assertion, to make historic events real.  If there was real evidence for any of it -- the pious would be rubbing our faces in it.  They're not because there isn't any.

 

I would say that the Bible is a book that is theological literature that is based on history. Sometimes more theological, sometimes more literary. Can I prove what happen that happened before I existed? No. I would say that I choose to believe or disbelieve things that I cannot prove. But then again, I've done things and had experiences that I cannot prove happened. So maybe that is not the "check mate" it is supposed to be.

Do you think you are presupposing that if something is true that there has to be proof?

 

Is it possible for something to be true that cannot be proved?

 

Is it possible to prove that something happened that actually didn't happen?

 

Your statements are very concrete, " never happened, no Moses, no Ten Plagues", etc.  How do you say that with such confidence? It seems to me that "bold assertion" is the one that goes against the Scriptures and the centuries of tradition based on those events.

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Coolhand said:

 

I would say that the Bible is a book that is theological literature that is based on history. Sometimes more theological, sometimes more literary. Can I prove what happen that happened before I existed? No. I would say that I choose to believe or disbelieve things that I cannot prove. But then again, I've done things and had experiences that I cannot prove happened. So maybe that is not the "check mate" it is supposed to be.

Do you think you are presupposing that if something is true that there has to be proof?

 

Is it possible for something to be true that cannot be proved?

 

Is it possible to prove that something happened that actually didn't happen?

 

Your statements are very concrete, " never happened, no Moses, no Ten Plagues", etc.  How do you say that with such confidence? It seems to me that "bold assertion" is the one that goes against the Scriptures and the centuries of tradition based on those events.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The importance of a claim, dictates the quality of evidence, required for that claim.  If you want to tell me what you had for lunch, I will take your word for it.  No proof required.

 

If you want to tell me what you believe, regarding the Bible, that is also fine.  No proof required.  Your beliefs are your beliefs.  I can accept and respect that.  No proof required.

 

If you want to influence my beliefs regarding the Bible; show me something.  In my view, the Bible is mythology.  Ludicrous mythology, not to be taken seriously as history.

 

I'm not looking for an argument.  I'm not looking to change your views.  If you want to change my views -- I need evidence.  I am prepared to change my views regarding the Bible -- and God -- if presented with compelling evidence.  Arguments are not evidence.  Scripture is not evidence.  Assertions are not evidence.  I want to be clear on that point.  Assertions made without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

 

That brings us to the topic of God.

 

I am Agnostic.  In the total absence of objective, verifiable, information about God -- I don't actually know whether or not God exists.  Nobody else knows either, regardless of belief.

 

I am also an Atheist.  In the total absence of objective, verifiable, information about God -- I don't believe that God exists.  In truth, I don't know what it would take, to get me to believe.  I can only tell you that it has not happened yet.

 

I am also an Apatheist.  In the total absence of objective, verifiable, information about God -- I don't care whether or not God exists.

 

To be clear, what I'm not is an Anti-Theist.  The beliefs of others are not my concern, and I am not here to vex anyone.

 

Welcome back to the board.  I hope you find your return enjoyable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Coolhand]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I'm not looking for an argument.  I'm not looking to change your views.  If you want to change my views -- I need evidence.  I am prepared to change my views regarding the Bible -- and God -- if presented with compelling evidence.  Arguments are not evidence.  Scripture is not evidence.  Assertions are not evidence.  I want to be clear on that point.  Assertions made without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

 

Thanks man on the welcome back.

 

I'm not trying to convince you of anything or change your beliefs, I know where you stand and respect that.

 

I am curious at how you can so confidently dismiss the "exodus"  story with so little stand on for it or against it. 

 

Did you just decide it wasn't true and that this where your confidence comes from?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Coolhand said:

 

Thanks man on the welcome back.

 

I'm not trying to convince you of anything or change your beliefs, I know where you stand and respect that.

 

I am curious at how you can so confidently dismiss the "exodus"  story with so little stand on for it or against it. 

 

Did you just decide it wasn't true and that this where your confidence comes from?

 

 

 

 

If the Exodus story were the only thing in the Bible; I would have to say -- maybe.  The supernatural elements seem unlikely at best -- but alright.  Maybe.  Is Exodus the only improbable element in the Bible?

 

The Creation account in Genesis:  The Sun and Moon show up on the fourth day.  What was the Earth doing for the first three days, without the Sun?  The Stars were installed on the fourth day.  An afterthought.  "He made the stars also."  Seriously?  "He made the stars also"?  Billions of galaxies.  Billions of stars in each galaxy. Pretty little sparkly things,  stuck in the firmament -- to decorate the night sky.  The firmament?  The glass like thing with windows, that lets in the rain?  No.  Cosmology has come a long way since then.  The people who wrote Genesis didn't know where the Sun goes at night.  They had no concept of what the stars are.  They had no idea that the Sun is a star.  The Creation of Earth was a six day process.  The rest of the Cosmos -- "He made the stars also" -- were just flashed into existence?  An afterthought?  After that, it seems petty to note that plant life shows up on the third day.

 

According to Christian Bible authorities, The Creation began at 4004 Before the Common Era.  Jewish authorities have dates for everything that happened in the Bible, on the Jewish calendar.  On that calendar, this is the year, 5779.  The light from distant stars, billions of light years away, is only now arriving.

 

The Garden of Eden story?  No.  Still, an "A" for effort to the Young Earth Creationists -- for trying to make Scripture conform to Reality.  How if Adam had cut down a tree in the Garden -- it would have had rings.  If he had dug into the ground, he would have found fossils.  At best, we have a twisted trickster God who made the Earth about six thousand years ago, to seem old.

 

The story of the Great Flood?  We have written records from China and India that are older than that.  No mention of the flood.  Almost as though it never happened.

 

Let's take the story at face value.  It rained and rained and the oceans overflowed and covered the entire world in salt water.  It didn't just destroy all animal life.  It destroyed all plant life.  No more oxygen carbon cycle.  The world was killed and made lifeless.  Where did the animals go?  There was nothing, anywhere, to sustain them.  No food for the predators.  No food for the plant eaters.  Just the endless bog going off in all directions.  Imagine the stink of rotting flesh and vegetation.  What does Noah do?  An animal sacrifice.  Like they have genetic diversity to spare.

 

All the other issues -- how big was this boat that had two of every "kind" and seven of some?  Do you know how much food and water it takes to sustain one elephant?  Or one lion?  A lot.  Besides eating and drinking, all the animals would be pissing and **ting.  Think of the tons of manure.  Actual tons.  Think of the methane gas.  One window for ventilation.  I could keep going.  Enough.

 

The Tower of Babel?  Again, we have written records from China and India that are older than that.  The Empire State Building in New York City, is taller than anything the ancients could have hoped to build.  The current world has taller buildings.  We never did reach Heaven, as God had feared.  Not even the Moon landings.  Even the probes we sent to Mars and the outer Solar system, never crashed into the Firmament, much less Heaven.

 

Must I keep going?  No.  Based on the historical accuracy of the Bible -- there was no Exodus and there was no Mosses.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Coolhand]

I think it is interesting how the Bible is handled, studied, and understood. We are talking about about a book that claims to be "God breathed" (theopenustos) and yet was written by primitive men in primitive societies with a fraction of the understanding of science and physics is exists currently.  Very few, if any, of these biblical writers would have been counted as scholars by any kind postmodern standards, except maybe Paul, possibly Luke.  

 

Another thing is that we don't know exactly what they were looking at when they were writing, and in fact a lot of the questions that come up in the Bible studies that I attend are good questions but fall into the "unknowable" category. And I agree with you brother, that "I don't know" is a better answer than a lot of the religious filibustering I've heard to try  to prove "inerrancy", which if I understand it correctly only applies to "original autographs" which conveniently enough are unavailable; what kind of chicanery is that?  

 

Not only is this antiquated collection of books written void of actual scientific facts in a lot of cases, but it is also written from the perspective of one who does not seem understand what he is seeing and writing about. And you would think that these writers would attempt to portray themselves and their nation in a much better light, and at least attempt to provide justification for their actions instead of just owning their failures.

 

The presumptions and presuppositions that we carry with us when we read this are going to affect how we process it. To me the power, authority, inerrancy, and infallability is in its honest and accurate illustrations of the range of human experience and emotion, and God and his attributes. If we try to understand the presumption and presuppositions of the biblical writers we gain context, instead we look at the angry, wrathful, violent say we want no part of it. Also, if a person really reads it they find things upside down and backwards at times like, I thought this was the good one and that was the bad one. 

 

People handle the Bible and try assign dates to the narratives and decide when described events occurred and if they occurred when can't even tell for sure what genre of literature they are reading. The Bible is not an easy book at all. Many times it gives you a story and you have to figure out why it is there. Sometimes you get the answers to questions but not the question. This is a book that you can't just read a few times and you got it, its a lifetime of mediation on spiritual, moral, emotional and human conditions.

 

Regardless, "never happened, no Moses, no Ten Plagues", etc is not something that I believe is "knowable," or that any of us can make any claims for certain one way or the other.