value of religion

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

I am sorry, Jonathan. I just thought to illustrate that alien "Christians missionaries" would not have any problems dealing with Earth's other religions. 

 

 

It depends on the historic model.  Americans have a tradition of going to India, to find a guru.  (It was popular when the Beatles did it.)  Or to South America to find a shaman.  Or to Tibet, to find a lama.  High tech people, sometimes get romantic notions of "finding themselves" -- and discovering spirituality in low tech places.

 

Missionary traffic does flow in both directions.  We can see this by the popularity of Yoga in the West.  Buddhism is very much in vogue.  The great Zen masters are no longer in Japan.  They're in Colorado.  

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

Dan's still on the ignore list...i forget because i still see his quotes.  One day i'll bother learning how to block those as well.

 

 

The question remains.  Do you think that Stoic philosophy, might be of interest to aliens?  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

My very name stems from that; it means "free one" and was given to boys who were mutilated by their own parents (eyes poked out, fingers amputated and such) in an attempt to prevent the Islamic invaders in Europe to take them and brainwash them into the very first ranks of their future armies.... Thus becoming quite fanatic because they wanted to "prove" themselves worthy of their new religion. Actually becoming so good at it that for centuries they became the emperors elite forces and personal body guards. For more background info just google: Janissaries (or just read the Wiki link I put in).

 

But yes, all "major" religions were guilty of more or less similar means of "persuasion" (or maybe someone can try to explain what "christmas trees" and [chocolate] easter eggs have to do with Christ's birth or crucifixion [no, I don't believe in his "literal" resurrection]...). 

 

 

 

 

Eggs and rabbits are symbols of fertility and signify rebirth and renewal.  By extension, spiritual renewal, hence Easter.

 

Evergreen trees keep their needles year round.  As in eternal life.

 

All highly Pagan.  The new religion has borrowed greatly, from those that came before.  Or, if you prefer, stole and misappropriated ancient symbols.  My favorite example is the Snake in the Tree.  Ancient goddess symbolism, turned inside out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

The question remains.  Do you think that Stoic philosophy, might be of interest to aliens?  

Unknowable with current information...remember star trek 4?  Maybe we aren't interesting enough compared to whales, or even a cactus.  Or maybe its the way the sun is reflected off the polar ice and to preserve their view we will be eliminated.  Or the Heinlein approach with intelligent insects flinging asteroids across space at us.  or they might love the sound rocks make when thrown into trees.

 

'In a universe where anything is possible'.is frequently cited as probable alien life, but the inverse is equally possible, that we're unfortunately it.

 

I could speculate that stoicism would interest them.  It is based on logic.  But would they find our logic primitive, or advanced?  Or would they even have a frame of reference?  Unknowable with current information really is the best i can do.

 

[cuchulain]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Eggs and rabbits are symbols of fertility and signify rebirth and renewal.  By extension, spiritual renewal, hence Easter.

 

Evergreen trees keep their needles year round.  As in eternal life.

 

All highly Pagan.  The new religion has borrowed greatly, from those that came before.  Or, if you prefer, stole and misappropriated ancient symbols.  My favorite example is the Snake in the Tree.  Ancient goddess symbolism, turned inside out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To believe that witches deserve death because the bible says so...is to first acknowledge a belief in magic and that witches possess it.  Maybe early christians were jealous of love spells?

Edited February 19, 2019 by cuchulain

[mark 45]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

To believe that witches deserve death because the bible says so...is to first acknowledge a belief in magic and that witches possess it.  Maybe early christians were jealous of love spells?

or they owned something(land?)that somebody else wanted.

[Brother Kaman]

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

It depends on the historic model.  Americans have a tradition of going to India, to find a guru.  (It was popular when the Beatles did it.)  Or to South America to find a shaman.  Or to Tibet, to find a lama.  High tech people, sometimes get romantic notions of "finding themselves" -- and discovering spirituality in low tech places.

 

Missionary traffic does flow in both directions.  We can see this by the popularity of Yoga in the West.  Buddhism is very much in vogue.  The great Zen masters are no longer in Japan.  They're in Colorado.  

 

 

 

 

But would alien missionaries care? What if they were all fundamentalists and not Jehova's Witnesses after all?

[cuchulain]

2 hours ago, mark 45 said:

or they owned something(land?)that somebody else wanted.

If only the all knowing god alleged by Christians had been a tad more specific...then we might have some real answers, instead of things made up to fill a gap.  I guess that's just beyond his abilities.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Unknowable with current information...remember star trek 4?  Maybe we aren't interesting enough compared to whales, or even a cactus.  Or maybe its the way the sun is reflected off the polar ice and to preserve their view we will be eliminated.  Or the Heinlein approach with intelligent insects flinging asteroids across space at us.  or they might love the sound rocks make when thrown into trees.

 

'In a universe where anything is possible'.is frequently cited as probable alien life, but the inverse is equally possible, that we're unfortunately it.

 

I could speculate that stoicism would interest them.  It is based on logic.  But would they find our logic primitive, or advanced?  Or would they even have a frame of reference?  Unknowable with current information really is the best i can do.

 

 

 

Sometimes, primitive sells.  Earth has a rich history of Ph.D. candidates in Anthropology, looking for primitive cultures to do a paper on.  The more primitive, the better.  In addition, artists and musicians look for inspiration in strange places.  The stranger, the better.  Linguists might also enjoy coming here.  If only to talk with the whales and dolphins.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

If only the all knowing god alleged by Christians had been a tad more specific...then we might have some real answers, instead of things made up to fill a gap.  I guess that's just beyond his abilities.

 

 

On the face of things, the Bible was written by people, who didn't know where the Sun goes at night.  It explains why Scripture defined the Firmament as it did.

 

Something useful, from Scripture, would have been instructions on how and when to wash our hands.  That would have saved lives beyond counting.  Instead, we have the wisdom of Jesus, who told us, that what enters into a man (contaminated food) doesn't matter.  Only what he says.

 

Something useful, would have been to forbid owning people as property.  Instead of rules about how to regulate slavery.

 

A few lines written in modern English -- beyond the Scribes of the time -- would have suggested future knowledge, in the hands of God back then.

 

Instead, the All Knowing, confined himself to the limits of the Human Scribes -- Both cultural and knowledge.  It's almost as though God had nothing to do with it.  Did Scripture really have to tell us, the correct way to twist the head off a dove -- and sprinkle the blood?  Knowledge for the ages?  

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

But would alien missionaries care? What if they were all fundamentalists and not Jehova's Witnesses after all?

 

 

It would depend on what they were Fundamentalist about.  The Protestant missionaries who went to Korea were highly successful.  In wide parts of the world, Islamic missionaries were very successful.  Buddhism spread well, all over the East.

 

Or they could have a cultural imperative, to destroy all god worship, everywhere.

 

For now, it is pure speculation.  My point in bringing this up, in the first place -- which has been forgotten even by the thread  -- is the value of religion.

 

What is the value of religion?  If it only speaks to the people of Earth, the value is minimal.  If an Earth religion has something to say to an alien visitor -- then it really does have universal values.

 

 

 

 

 

For now, a simple question.  Does Christianity -- or Islam -- have anything to say to an alien?  

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

 

34 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] the Bible was written by people, who didn't know where the Sun goes at night.  It explains why Scripture defined the Firmament as it did. [...]

 

Oh no. Oh no! Don't tell me Dan's a "flat earther" too!!! Why did you have to go and open that can of worms too... ?!?

 

Indeed better to stay "on-topic":

 

18 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

What is the value of religion?  If it only speaks to the people of Earth, the value is minimal.  If an Earth religion has something to say to an alien visitor -- then it really does have universal values.

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

17 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Oh no. Oh no! Don't tell me Dan's a "flat earther" too!!! Why did you have to go and open that can of worms too... ?!?

 

Indeed better to stay "on-topic":

 

 

 

 

I'm trying. 

 

A Buddhist could discuss "suffering" and "attachment" with anybody. 

 

There is nothing about the Tao that is species or culture specific.  It's all ideas.

 

I don't understand Stoicism all that well.  Maybe.  It's ideas.

 

What does Christianity have to offer?  Salvation?  That's a hard sell here.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

null

On 2/18/2019 at 4:32 PM, mark 45 said:

IF memory serves me correct,more than one society has a creation"story",a noah's ark",among other things

 

19 hours ago, Key said:

Given that many cultures before Christ had similar stories to the Bible's Genesis and a few other excerpts, how could you be certain it truly matched?

 

I'd be reluctant to accept anything similar, it would need to precisely coincide with the specifics of the gospel, eg; a Savior, crucifixion, and raised from the grave. A mere mention of a flood would not suffice.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Dan56

[Dan56]

On 2/18/2019 at 5:33 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Let's face it.  Missionaries lie.  They tell the audience what the audience wants to hear.

 

Not every audience wants to hear about it

 

 

[RevBogovac]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Not every audience wants to hear about it  [....]

 

 

Nice try, most of us actually know enough historic facts about what happended to a lot of people who did not want "to hear about it" [nothing to smile there]...

 

 

[cuchulain]

The topic at hand...the value of religion.  The more I think about it, the more I consider it's like anything else someone has to "sell".  It's worth what the buyer is willing to pay.  I owned a used furniture store for a while and traded occasionally with people.  A couple came in wanting to change to a different couch and loveseat set.  They had a leather set, and wanted to part with a credenza as well.  They paid 100$ to boot.  When I went to pick up the items from their home and drop off the traded set, as an afterthought the wife asked if I wanted the old desk that was falling apart in the hall way.  I took it of course.  It was antique.  I put it in the store with a price tag of 300$ on it until I could look up what it was actually selling for, but before I had the chance someone bought it on the spot.  It was falling apart, literally.  The legs were barely together, the drawer was missing pieces and it was in BAD shape, but I knew it was worth something as an antique and I got it free.  Turned out to be worth about 50$ in the condition it was in, and if I had invested a small amount to restore it would have been worth about 200$.  But the customer saw, wanted, and bought.  On that day, at that time, it was worth 300$.  

 

Religion is the same way I think.  Nobody really needs it, it's falling apart, and pretty much useless.  But there are some people out there who are willing to buy anything to fill a space, even if they are filling that space with a lie.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Not every audience wants to hear about it

 

 

 

You don't know how lucky you are, that Atheists don't behave that way.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Nice try, most of us actually know enough historic facts about what happended to a lot of people who did not want "to hear about it" [nothing to smile there]...

 

Your confusing the Catholic church with Christ... Religious power forced on nonbelievers (inquisition) isn't anything Jesus would have approved of, in fact he warned us about lunatics;  "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7)

 

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You don't know how lucky you are, that Atheists don't behave that way.

 

Cute video... I agree, I don't like pushy people no matter what side of the fence their on.. Any belief shouldn't become an agenda promoted by intense salesmanship, but the majority gets cocky and the tide of popular opinion often rolls over everyone, politically or religiously. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Your confusing the Catholic church with Christ... Religious power forced on nonbelievers (inquisition) isn't anything Jesus would have approved of, in fact he warned us about lunatics;  "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7)

 

 

Cute video... I agree, I don't like pushy people no matter what side of the fence their on.. Any belief shouldn't become an agenda promoted by intense salesmanship, but the majority gets cocky and the tide of popular opinion often rolls over everyone, politically or religiously. 

 

You seem to have forgotten, everything you have ever said to me, on the subject of cultural dominance and Christian rights.  I remember, even if you don't.