Forgiveness is necessary?

[cuchulain]

1 hour ago, Songster said:

OK. If you prefer Luke....  Chapter 23, verse 34- "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do."

Those guilty of His death were ignorant of the enormity of their offense, were unrepentant, and yet they were FORGIVEN anyway.

The Christ did not say, "Ask me for forgiveness, and it will be granted."

He gave the guilty absolution without hesitation and without prerequisite pleas for forgiveness..

Shouldn't His example be followed by His followers?

Sure.  If they want to call themselves followers of Christ, they should certainly live up to his example as they see it.  

Didn't mean to give any offense, if I did.  Just pointing out some problems with scribal errors and the bible, and how small errors in copying can alter what the book says, or at the least our interpretation of it.

[VonNoble]

On 9/19/2017 at 11:30 AM, Dan56 said:

 

Certainly true.... I was not advocating the necessity to lash-out in a violent range whenever a person feels wronged. If someone accidentally steps on your toe, its obviously an over-reaction to have a tantrum and throw a hissy fit.. But I believe 'anger' is a natural reaction when intentional harm is directed your way, e.g; someone steals your car, or burns down your house.

 

I don't believe God is a neutral third party when one person harms or trespasses against another either. That's like saying that if someone shoots your dog, its between the shooter and your dog., and your unaffected by the incident.. In a scenario where an aggressor creates victims via his harmful and deliberate actions, God promises vengeance.  Jesus said; "For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13). From a biblical pov, forgiveness requires repentance.

 

I am curious about this. 

God knows if a person repents.

If that is so...then - I ask again - is it necessary to say it out loud to a human?

 

If God knows...isn't that enough? 

 

von

[VonNoble]

On 9/19/2017 at 1:49 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I suspect that your father's rules are the rules of the confessional.  My foundation is more influenced by Buddhism than Christianity.  I am not a Buddhist, but this has been an influence on my thinking.

 

 

I am sure that is correct.

My natural curiosity turns to the psychology of it all. 

 

Was the confessional protocol (or whatever is the correct word) - the confessional process

tied to any understanding or reason that there is an actual benefit to humans to admit

to someone (the injured party or some neutral third party) (a counselor) that you screwed

up.   Maybe you are NOT sorry you just with you had done - or not done something and 

you want to talk it over in a safe place.

 

A bartender may work for some. 

 

von

 

PS....i too find many Buddhist teaching/approach have helped my ability to reason things

out more clearly (and certainly more calmly) (that and my parents NOT restricting our 

solutions to begin with  as they allowed a great deal of freedom spiritually growing up) 

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Songster said:

OK. If you prefer Luke....  Chapter 23, verse 34- "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do."

Those guilty of His death were ignorant of the enormity of their offense, were unrepentant, and yet they were FORGIVEN anyway.

The Christ did not say, "Ask me for forgiveness, and it will be granted."

He gave the guilty absolution without hesitation and without prerequisite pleas for forgiveness..

Shouldn't His example be followed by His followers?

 

When a person sins in ignorance, or is convinced they are doing right, I believe a Christian is obligated to forgive, because that person is unknowingly transgressing the law.. That's why I wrote; "Or if a person unknowingly sins against you, you forgive the debt."  Those screaming for the death of Christ were convince he was guilty of blasphemy, they didn't know who he was.. If they had known, then blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would have been unforgivable.

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

 

I am sure that is correct.

My natural curiosity turns to the psychology of it all. 

 

Was the confessional protocol (or whatever is the correct word) - the confessional process

tied to any understanding or reason that there is an actual benefit to humans to admit

to someone (the injured party or some neutral third party) (a counselor) that you screwed

up.   Maybe you are NOT sorry you just with you had done - or not done something and 

you want to talk it over in a safe place.

 

A bartender may work for some. 

 

von

 

PS....i too find many Buddhist teaching/approach have helped my ability to reason things

out more clearly (and certainly more calmly) (that and my parents NOT restricting our 

solutions to begin with  as they allowed a great deal of freedom spiritually growing up) 

 

 

In fairness, I must declare my biases up front.  I do not trust the Catholic Church.  Sometimes, my analysis is not fair.  Ethics requires me to declare myself, rather than pretend.

 

The Catholic Church has made the confessional part of the path to Heaven.  Or at least, a shorter stay in Purgatory.  I think that this is more to the benefit of the Church -- in terms of control and dominance -- than the benefit of the people being told to confess and repent.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

I am curious about this. 

God knows if a person repents.

If that is so...then - I ask again - is it necessary to say it out loud to a human?

 

If God knows...isn't that enough? 

 

von

 

 

God is not enough.  The power that grants absolution is not God.  It's the Church.  Confession is not to God.  Confession is to the Church.  

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[VonNoble]

Are there any psychology folks among us 

who could/would weigh in onnthe value 

or need if humans

 

a) to confess errors 

b) hear something akin to comfort

        in such circumstances

 

or .... can perfectly normal folks just 

process it and move on without all the 

interpersonal connection

 

I realize it varies ...however there is 

probably some " norm" someplace as a 

standard as we seem to apply it to figure

out those not meeting the norm

 

Thx

von

[Pastor Dave]

1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

Are there any psychology folks among us 

who could/would weigh in onnthe value 

or need if humans

 

a) to confess errors 

b) hear something akin to comfort

        in such circumstances

 

or .... can perfectly normal folks just 

process it and move on without all the 

interpersonal connection

 

I realize it varies ...however there is 

probably some " norm" someplace as a 

standard as we seem to apply it to figure

out those not meeting the norm

 

Thx

von

 

I'm not a psychology person but here is the first article on a google search for me.

And a quick quote from the article.

 

"Psychologically, when people reported higher levels of forgiveness, they also tended to report better health habits and decreased depression, anxiety, and anger levels. Even in betrayed couples, greater levels of forgiveness were associated with more satisfied relationships, a stronger parenting alliance, and children's perceptions of parenting functioning. Physiologically, higher reported levels of forgiveness were associated with lower white blood cell count and hematocrit levels. White blood cells are an integral part of fighting off diseases and infections. Together, these results highlight the importance of forgiveness - not for the other person, but for you. Don't allow your mind and your body to go through another day feeling vengeful and angry. "

[VonNoble]

4 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

I'm not a psychology person but here is the first article on a google search for me.

And a quick quote from the article.

 

Thanks much for the article.   I appreciate it.  In reading it it confirms what I thought I knew.... why it is a good idea for me to forgive someone else.   It helps ME to do so.    Buddhists liken it to grasping a hot coal.    Hanging on to it only burns you.   

 

What I'm less clear about is the need to SEEK forgiveness.

 

EXAMPLE you KNOW you made a choice to do ( or not do) something.... fully well knowing you were breaking a rule .     You were successful in that 1) you got what you wanted to get   2) it doesn't matter if you got what you wanted or not... you bloody well know you just up and broke a rule.... others will trust you less if you don't own up to it

 

no one knows or is likely to find out.... is there some human drive to confess ?  Are we wired to seek forgiveness? 

 

Thx 

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

I'm not a psychology person but here is the first article on a google search for me.

And a quick quote from the article.

 

"Psychologically, when people reported higher levels of forgiveness, they also tended to report better health habits and decreased depression, anxiety, and anger levels. Even in betrayed couples, greater levels of forgiveness were associated with more satisfied relationships, a stronger parenting alliance, and children's perceptions of parenting functioning. Physiologically, higher reported levels of forgiveness were associated with lower white blood cell count and hematocrit levels. White blood cells are an integral part of fighting off diseases and infections. Together, these results highlight the importance of forgiveness - not for the other person, but for you. Don't allow your mind and your body to go through another day feeling vengeful and angry. "

 

 

Is it not possible to release anger, without forgiving?  

[Pastor Dave]

1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

Thanks much for the article.   I appreciate it.  In reading it it confirms what I thought I knew.... why it is a good idea for me to forgive someone else.   It helps ME to do so.    Buddhists liken it to grasping a hot coal.    Hanging on to it only burns you.   

 

What I'm less clear about is the need to SEEK forgiveness.

 

EXAMPLE you KNOW you made a choice to do ( or not do) something.... fully well knowing you were breaking a rule .     You were successful in that 1) you got what you wanted to get   2) it doesn't matter if you got what you wanted or not... you bloody well know you just up and broke a rule.... others will trust you less if you don't own up to it

 

no one knows or is likely to find out.... is there some human drive to confess ?  Are we wired to seek forgiveness? 

 

Thx 

 

von

 

From a Christian point of view the two are immutably intertwined.

Luke 11:4(CJB) Forgive us our sins, for we too forgive everyone who has wronged us. And do not lead us to hard testing.’”

Matthew 18:35 (CEB) “My heavenly Father will also do the same to you if you don’t forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Matthew 6:14 Amp For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Matthew 9:13 Amp Go and learn what this [Scripture] means: ‘I desire compassion [for those in distress], and not [animal] sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call [to repentance] the [self-proclaimed] righteous [who see no need to change], but sinners [those who recognize their sin and actively seek forgiveness].”

For me, the two are so intertwined that with one, comes the other.

 

IMHO We are more capable of forgiving others when we feel forgiven. Forgiveness, it seems to me, must be a two way street. If we receive forgiveness it allows us to release the negativity associated with the action just as forgiving others allows us to let go of the bad feelings concerning their actions.

 

 

[Pastor Dave]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Is it not possible to release anger, without forgiving?  

 

I suppose there are other methods than those I follow. If someone finds what works for them why should I judge. My instruction book for life tells me; " For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.".

I do remember watching a talk show with Dr Caroline Leaf and she was talking about how the act of forgiveness released chemicals in your brain that allow new neural networks to form.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Pastor Dave

[Dan56]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:25 PM, VonNoble said:

 

I am curious about this. 

God knows if a person repents.

If that is so...then - I ask again - is it necessary to say it out loud to a human?

 

If God knows...isn't that enough? 

 

von

 

If the person whom the offense is committed against doesn't know that you regret offending them, then yes, I believe its necessary to apologize. God may know your sorry that you stepped on someones foot, but the person limping on one foot who doesn't hear an "excuse me, I'm sorry", doesn't have a clue if you failed to verbally express it.

[cuchulain]

different strokes for different folks sums it up for me. 

[mererdog]

19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Is it not possible to release anger, without forgiving?  

I don't think it is. At best, I think you can just forget about it temporarily. Once reminded of the wrong you did not forgive, the anger will come bubbling back up, the same as ever. That is how it works in my experience, anyway. It isn't until I can get past the idea that someone owes me a debt that I can stop resenting it not being paid. If I hold onto the grudge, the grudge keeps its hold on me.

I suspect we may end up talking past each other on this one by each saying the same things but with words the other finds unfamiliar...

Edited September 22, 2017 by mererdog

[mererdog]

On 9/16/2017 at 4:57 AM, VonNoble said:

What role does the need to seek forgiveness play in our human experience?

It helps to alleviate the guilt and shame that inevitably come from being an imperfect being with a conscience. In other words, being forgiven helps us forgive ourselves.

Edited September 22, 2017 by mererdog

[Brother Kaman]

Rationalizing one's behavior  prevents guilt and only the guilty need forgiveness. We all rationalize our actions and reactions, some more than others.

[mererdog]

58 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

Rationalizing one's behavior  prevents guilt

Actually, it doesn't. Mostly because the conscience is not rational. I am capable of being completely convinced I am doing the right thing, yet completely wracked with guilt over what I am doing. It seems to be the same basic phenomenon as being angry with someone for doing something, even though you know they should have done it. Its kind of stupid and kind of unavoidable.

Edited September 22, 2017 by mererdog

[Brother Kaman]

36 minutes ago, mererdog said:

Actually, it doesn't. Mostly because the conscience is not rational. I am capable of being completely convinced I am doing the right thing, yet completely wracked with guilt over what I am doing. It seems to be the same basic phenomenon as being angry with someone for doing something, even though you know they should have done it. Its kind of stupid and kind of unavoidable.

Perhaps, then, it is singular to me. I do not do guilt. I do not seek forgiveness. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 9/21/2017 at 6:54 PM, VonNoble said:

Thanks much for the article.   I appreciate it.  In reading it it confirms what I thought I knew.... why it is a good idea for me to forgive someone else.   It helps ME to do so.    Buddhists liken it to grasping a hot coal.    Hanging on to it only burns you.   

 

What I'm less clear about is the need to SEEK forgiveness.

 

EXAMPLE you KNOW you made a choice to do ( or not do) something.... fully well knowing you were breaking a rule .     You were successful in that 1) you got what you wanted to get   2) it doesn't matter if you got what you wanted or not... you bloody well know you just up and broke a rule.... others will trust you less if you don't own up to it

 

no one knows or is likely to find out.... is there some human drive to confess ?  Are we wired to seek forgiveness? 

 

Thx 

 

von

 

I am persuaded that if this need exists -- it rises out of a religious cultural context.  A Christian might need to forgive.  I was never Christian.  I need to let go.