Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination  is just nonsense.  I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists. 

 

 

You called?  Since you asked, I currently find the idea of the Biblical God rather silly.  I find I can't take the idea seriously, long enough even to attack it.  Still, other ideas.....  Well, maybe.  Then again, I don't think it matters.  It is odd, how the cultural conditioning gets stuck in the bones. 

 

[Pete]

As I said I find biblical god cognitively stupid but I was indoctrinated since the days I could understand speech. It annoys me. I always remember my parents saying you can choose when your old enough to leave the family home yet it is not easy. The old Jesuite say give me the child and I give you the adult. Most children want to please their parents but it has consequences. I do not go to church or feel I fit in but my brothers and sisters still say god bless on parting. It just niggles me.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

As I said I find biblical god cognitively stupid but I was indoctrinated since the days I could understand speech. It annoys me. I always remember my parents saying you can choose when your old enough to leave the family home yet it is not easy. The old Jesuite say give me the child and I give you the adult. Most children want to please their parents but it has consequences. I do not go to church or feel I fit in but my brothers and sisters still say god bless on parting. It just niggles me.

 

 

Yes.  This sort of conditioning goes deep into the bones.   On a deep emotional level,  way below the rational, you probably feel like you "failed" God.  Along with your parents, ancestors and humanity.  It's a good start.  The wounds won't heal if you don't know you have wounds.  The good news is that this is not your weakness.  You were supposed to be consumed by guilt.  This is what the founders had in mind.  It worked.

 

Releasing is going to be an ongoing process.  It will take time.  

Edited September 30, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

17 hours ago, Pete said:

I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination  is just nonsense.  I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists. 

 

I consider myself an agnostic orthodox christian. That's simply who I am. As you I was "raised" that way, and tried to "fight it" but am at ease with it now. Especially because I have also come to appreciate the "social" aspect of it. It's not that much that I "literally" believe everything from the bible (how's that for an orthodox christian?), I simply can not know (agnostic, right?) but I am part of that social group and feel (more or less) comfortable in it. It has a function; safety, comfort, coherence, help et cetera... so therefore I can handle it. 

[Pete]

Thank you RevBogovav.  I am not at ease with it. I feel violated. Just about all in the bible I believe it nonsense and if I compare it too cultural history none of it make sense or its biblical concepts believable for me which makes annoyed with myself. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Pete

[cuchulain]

the worst part of indoctrination to me is that tendency to still attempt to be politically correct, even so far as to include phrases like 'to me' after acknowledging the Christian god is rubbish.  it's like saying Santa is rubbish...'to me'.  but it's a statement of how I view reality and shouldn't need a qualifier.  but still I catch myself doing it too.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

the worst part of indoctrination to me is that tendency to still attempt to be politically correct, even so far as to include phrases like 'to me' after acknowledging the Christian god is rubbish.  it's like saying Santa is rubbish...'to me'.  but it's a statement of how I view reality and shouldn't need a qualifier.  but still I catch myself doing it too.

 

I find it is often difficult, to know where to draw the line.

 

Creationism is crap.  Creationism is not crap "to me".  It's just crap.  

 

God is more tricky.  Some highly intelligent people, who have my respect, are believers.  I throw in the qualifier, for the simple reason that I don't enjoy being mean, or rude.  But yes.  God is crap, to me.

 

The basic rule of thumb that I use, is to put things on the other foot.  When a Fundamentalist says that Atheism is crap, it is what I expect.  Rudeness, arrogance and condescension.  The intelligent believer, will throw in the same qualifier.  "To them."  It is the same thing.  It is the fine art of coexistence.  Not that I'm always up to my own standards.  When people ask what I think of Scripture, my first reaction is generally blunt honesty.  

[Pete]

It is just difficult cognative dissonance is sometimes difficult before the bubble eventually pops over the conditioning.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

18 hours ago, Pete said:

It is just difficult cognative dissonance is sometimes difficult before the bubble eventually pops over the conditioning.

 

 

Bubbles are delicate and ephemeral.  I think the popping of a boil is a more useful image.  The pressure builds up until there is an explosion.  This is good.  It is a release of poisons.  

 

I know about the mixed feelings.  We want authentic lives of honesty and sanity.  At the same time, we get so tired of other people's crap.  We develop awareness of the deep conditioning, that is so much a part of us.  We also know that the rage and resentment have to be released, for our own good.  We want to be kind, to the good people of faith, who respect us.  We want to tell all the smug, arrogant, pricks, who know, where they can stuff their certitude.  

 

Yes.  I know.  It's a toxic stew with mixed agenda and conflicted emotions.  It helps to focus the anger where it belongs.  God is not the problem.  Things that don''t exist are not an issue.  It's like being angry with Captain Ahab.  Or Lex Luthor.   Religion is not the problem.  No Pantheist or Polytheist ever got in my face, and told me that I was going to Perdition.  Neither do they try to distort Public School education or legislation.  Even Monotheism is not the problem.  There are plenty of good Monotheists with nothing but love in their hearts.

 

I don't have an answer.  Anti-Theism has a way of bringing forth the worst that the religious world has to offer.  Religious persecution is a mistake.  It is both morally repugnant and useless.  It is necessary to draw a few lines.  I can't figure out where.  

 

 

[RevBogovac]

On 9/30/2017 at 6:32 PM, Pete said:

Thank you RevBogovav.  I am not at ease with it. I feel violated. Just about all in the bible I believe it nonsense and if I compare it too cultural history none of it make sense or its biblical concepts believable for me which makes annoyed with myself. 

 

I can imagine, but you will have to find the path through that for yourself...

 

I myself try not to take it all too literally (basically why take life too seriously, it's not like you're going to survive it, right?)... 

 

Just remember the"children's stories" we tended to tell our children here in the West (the "basic" Grimm and Andersen line); just how gruesome are they when you think about it!?! Wolfes/Witches eating children and blood and gore everywhere... Gruesome, just gruesome... but they actually did have a "moral to the story" and a "function": listen to your parents, don't go out in the dark alone wondering off the roads et cetera... Were those stories "true"? Should we still tell them to our children in today's age? If you look at the movies that were made out of these stories the past years it were more or less movies intended for adults... still nice stories though.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I can imagine, but you will have to find the path through that for yourself...

 

I myself try not to take it all too literally (basically why take life too seriously, it's not like you're going to survive it, right?)... 

 

Just remember the"children's stories" we tended to tell our children here in the West (the "basic" Grimm and Andersen line); just how gruesome are they when you think about it!?! Wolfes/Witches eating children and blood and gore everywhere... Gruesome, just gruesome... but they actually did have a "moral to the story" and a "function": listen to your parents, don't go out in the dark alone wondering off the roads et cetera... Were those stories "true"? Should we still tell them to our children in today's age? If you look at the movies that were made out of these stories the past years it were more or less movies intended for adults... still nice stories though.

 

 

Have you seen the children's books of Bible stories?  It's small wonder that children get their own sanitized versions.  We can't have the children reading about Lot and his daughters.  A great deal gets left out of the children's versions.  The Brothers Grimm can't compete with that stuff.

[Dan56]

On 9/1/2017 at 7:40 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

  Sometimes, finding the perfect label becomes a game.  Which label do you like?

 

 

I prefer 'free thinker',  I think we are all free thinkers.. Just because someone becomes convinced of something, does not mean they've lost the ability to think objectively or are no longer capable of independent thought. Whether a person believes in a God, gods, or rejects the existence of a God or gods, does not presume they've been indoctrinated into a cult like atmosphere where they are incapable of free thought. We can all reach different conclusions, only because we are all free thinkers. That's why I believe what I do, outside influence was not a factor in my decision.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I prefer 'free thinker',  I think we are all free thinkers.. Just because someone becomes convinced of something, does not mean they've lost the ability to think objectively or are no longer capable of independent thought. Whether a person believes in a God, gods, or rejects the existence of a God or gods, does not presume they've been indoctrinated into a cult like atmosphere where they are incapable of free thought. We can all reach different conclusions, only because we are all free thinkers. That's why I believe what I do, outside influence was not a factor in my decision.

 

Free Thinker?  You?          

 

 

If you're a Free Thinker, then words have truly lost all meaning.

 

     

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

With Respect  Dan if you read my post ( I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination  is just nonsense.  I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists. ) I said that because I did not want your views or understanding  (I use that term loosely ) on my feelings. Your one of the most fixed minded people I know and would hold to your bibliocist views no more what cruelty and heartlessness it brings about. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Pete

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

With Respect  Dan if you read my post ( I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination  is just nonsense.  I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists. ) I said that because I did not want your views or understanding  (I use that term loosely ) on my feelings. Your one of the most fixed minded people I know and would hold to your bibliocist views no more what cruelty and heartlessness it brings about. 

 

No problem, I probably should not have posted on this thread... My simple point was that not everyone who's chosen to believe something was indoctrinated or are at odds with their cognitive reasoning.. I wasn't commenting on your personal feelings or anyone else's, but just refuting that a person who believes in a god is incapable of independent thought. That's like saying that an atheist who's determined that no god exist, cannot be a free thinker.  Just because a person reaches a definitive conclusion, doesn't mean they are brainwashed and can't think for themselves..  To the contrary, making decisions requires you to think, so in that respect, I believe we are all 'free thinkers' . Just my opinion of course.

[Pete]

Dan you have justified killing women who are not virgins on their wedding night. Burning daughters of preists because the turn to prostitution. Killing people who turn to other faiths because it is in your bronze age book. You even said if god told you to kill you would. It is just like natzi guards who say they were just following orders and have no compassion or conscience to say this is wrong. Christianity is based torturing people in hell who do not believe as you do. This world is not perfect and therefore there is no righteous judgement and all because of a fictional being. All the way through history  your faith has killed millions. I find the saying just like Natzies very fitting. You will never move from your fixed position so by definition you are not a free thinker. Besides that this section is for none religions so please go away. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

With Respect  Dan if you read my post ( I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination  is just nonsense.  I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists. ) I said that because I did not want your views or understanding  (I use that term loosely ) on my feelings. Your one of the most fixed minded people I know and would hold to your bibliocist views no more what cruelty and heartlessness it brings about. 

 

I think this is the perfect time to drop the qualifier.  "With respect"?  What respect?  I know that you have been deeply conditioned to be polite --  and nice -- but sometimes, truth is more important.  Really.  Respect?  For Dan?  That ship sailed a long time ago.  

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

When I started the post I was thinking in ULC respect but the more I wrote the more angry I got. I will not say anymore as it will only bring him back. However I am pissed with his intervention. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

When I started the post I was thinking in ULC respect but the more I wrote the more angry I got. I will not say anymore as it will only bring him back. However I am pissed with his intervention. 

 

 

I know.  Oh, do I know.  Despite all rational intentions, he does irritate.  

 

[Pete]

True