Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

[RevBogovac]

On 10/7/2017 at 7:50 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I've had some time to think about this study.

 

First, None does not equate to Agnostic or Atheist.  Sometimes None only means lack of membership.

 

Second, I've been seeing similar polls all my life.  Others were around long before I came along.  So far, they have not proven accurate.

 

Third, I have seen other recent polls, that suggested, demographically, Atheism was on the decline.

 

Fourth, a recent poll that I saw insisted, that Islam was going to be the largest religious category within 40 years.  

 

As Mark Twain commented -- "Lies, damned lies and statistics." 

 

I go by my own perceptions.  For better or for worse, religion is not going anywhere.

 

Then you seem to be closing your mind to the bigger (historic) picture; "religion" has been on the decline since the "Age of Enlightenment". But yes, "history" does not unwind linear but more like a wave. And yes, at the moment "Religion" seems to be in an uptrend. Stil historically a lot lower that before the aforementioned "Age of Enlightenment" though...

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Then you seem to be closing your mind to the bigger (historic) picture; "religion" has been on the decline since the "Age of Enlightenment". But yes, "history" does not unwind linear but more like a wave. And yes, at the moment "Religion" seems to be in an uptrend. Stil historically a lot lower that before the aforementioned "Age of Enlightenment" though...

 

I would enjoy seeing proof that I'm mistaken.  That means I have to be careful of confirmation bias.  From where you are, in the Secular Netherlands, of course, your perceptions are different.  Where I am, the inmates are running the asylum.

 

 

[LeopardBoy]

I also think the term religion in these type of polls seems to be defined too narrowly. In many cultures, religious practice is intertwined with the culture itself, so a person answering the polls might not define the everyday spiritual practices they perform as a “religion” separate from their culture.  I see countries like China and Japan listed as secular-majority countries, yet both cultures are steeped in spiritual practices that could be described as religious, if one is defining the word religion more broadly than the context Westerners apply the term.

[Pete]

I am back. I just needed to talk about something personal. Thanks for being there for me Jonathan.

I used to have a friend who was a staunch Atheist Marxist. He always  said the best way to deal with religion is to ignore it and do not give it the attention it thrives on. He would laugh and just walk away. They would get infuriated. He would say give them attention and you give them undeserved power. As long as they are getting attention or persecution they will just will continue to feel they are legitimate. It is an interesting approach.    

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I am back. I just needed to talk about something personal.

Welcome back 

[Pete]

Thanks Von.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

In large measure, America does have a Christian culture.  There are small things that add up.  Football culture comes to mind.  Watching the President take his oath of office, with his hand on the Bible.  The City Council meetings that begin with prayer.  So many tiny, insignificant things.  Like snowflakes.  But they add up like snowflakes in a blizzard.

 

What irks me is when Christianity puts on the secular front.  Like a wolf in sheep's clothing.  The Pledge of Allegiance?  Only a secular statement of loyalty.  In God we trust on the money?  Another secular statement.  I am so tired of the buffoon, who says to give him my money, if I don't like it.  Nativity scenes in front of the Public Library?  Just a winter festival.  Every public Christian display is secular.  The Ten Commandments monuments in front of a court house?  A historic display.  The depth of Christian hypocrisy is stunning. 

 

Little things.  Lots and lots of little things.  The A.A. meetings that define God as the "higher power" -- or "God as we define Him."  Then they join hands and recite "the Lord's Prayer".

 

The icing on the cake, is when Christians, in America, claim that they are being persecuted.

 

Lots and lots of little things.  But oh, what a stench.

 

Recently, I have been seeing studies of American demographics.  These studies insist that as Christianity declines, it will be replaced, not by Atheism, but by Islam.  That Islam will be the dominant religion in America by 2040.

 

Atheist that I am, I am not looking forward to an America where Islam is the dominant cultural force.  On the other hand, I think this will be the cause for much gallows humor.  I will be laughing while I look at all the Fundamentalist Christians -- who mourn the passing of Secular Society.  

 

                          

 

 

This is the way of things.  Religious minorities always think that equality is a wonderful thing.  With minorities treated with respect.  Until they become dominant.  Of course, when the dominant groups become minority, they discover the virtues of fairness.  For the first time.

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

Some Islamic states kill atheists. Its all to protect an unsubstantiated belief and put it beyond question. Scrutiny is unwelcome.  

 It is all a front. The bible says specifically that you should not make oaths or swear by it. It is just political bull.

Message.  Do not question me.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

Some Islamic states kill atheists. Its all to protect an unsubstantiated belief and put it beyond question. Scrutiny is unwelcome.  

 It is all a front. The bible says specifically that you should not make oaths or swear by it. It is just political **.

Message.  Do not quest me.

 

 

In Saudi Arabian Law (capital L) -- Atheism is regarded as a form of terrorism.  Terrorists, including Atheists, are executed as enemies of the State.  This is in addition to all the laws regarding blasphemy, showing "respect" to the Prophet and Koran -- and a loose category of crimes against hurting the feelings of Muslims.  

 

I don't think they make a lot of distinctions between Atheists, Agnostics, Brights, Secularists, Objectivists, Humanists, etc.

 

On the other hand, it would be hilarious to watch all the Christians, become known as Free Thinkers.  That is, in the original sense of the word.

 

[Pete]

In the UK religious prejudice is right up their with rascism. The Christians hate it because they cannot preach about their hate of Islam. Now that is fun.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

In the UK religious prejudice is right up their with rascism. The Christians hate it because they cannot preach about their hate of Islam. Now that is fun.

 

The religion of Love vs. the religion of Peace.  It's a sour fun.  Still --   When smug clashes with arrogant ---    And the extremists on both sides know it all ---   In case it needs to be said.  I think Jewish Orthodoxy is as crazy as any other variety.  

 

It's not my imagination.  The world is getting more crazy.

[RevBogovac]

14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] Recently, I have been seeing studies of American demographics.  These studies insist that as Christianity declines, it will be replaced, not by Atheism, but by Islam.  That Islam will be the dominant religion in America by 2040. [...]

 

That says more about American education than about any religion...  

 

1 minute ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] It's not my imagination.  The world is getting more crazy.

 

That depends on your definition of crazy. In the mean time the (drastic) increase in longevity suggests the world is getting more safe...  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

1.  That says more about American education than about any religion...  

 

 

2.  That depends on your definition of crazy. In the mean time the (drastic) increase in longevity suggests the world is getting more safe...  

 

 

1.  Does it?  Perhaps in the sense of not teaching critical thinking skills.  The Public School system is not tasked with the destruction of religion.  Neither Christianity, nor Islam, nor any other irrationality.  

 

2.  Better medical care.  Safer conditions.  Not more sanity.  

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 6:59 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In large measure, America does have a Christian culture.  There are small things that add up.  Football culture comes to mind.  Watching the President take his oath of office, with his hand on the Bible.  The City Council meetings that begin with prayer.  So many tiny, insignificant things.  Like snowflakes.  But they add up like snowflakes in a blizzard.

 

What irks me is when Christianity puts on the secular front.  Like a wolf in sheep's clothing.  The Pledge of Allegiance?  Only a secular statement of loyalty.  In God we trust on the money?  Another secular statement.  I am so tired of the buffoon, who says to give him my money, if I don't like it.  Nativity scenes in front of the Public Library?  Just a winter festival.  Every public Christian display is secular.  The Ten Commandments monuments in front of a court house?  A historic display.  The depth of Christian hypocrisy is stunning. 

 

Little things.  Lots and lots of little things.  The A.A. meetings that define God as the "higher power" -- or "God as we define Him."  Then they join hands and recite "the Lord's Prayer".

 

The icing on the cake, is when Christians, in America, claim that they are being persecuted.

 

Lots and lots of little things.  But oh, what a stench.

 

Recently, I have been seeing studies of American demographics.  These studies insist that as Christianity declines, it will be replaced, not by Atheism, but by Islam.  That Islam will be the dominant religion in America by 2040.

 

Atheist that I am, I am not looking forward to an America where Islam is the dominant cultural force.  On the other hand, I think this will be the cause for much gallows humor.  I will be laughing while I look at all the Fundamentalist Christians -- who mourn the passing of Secular Society.  

 

                          

 

 

This is the way of things.  Religious minorities always think that equality is a wonderful thing.  With minorities treated with respect.  Until they become dominant.  Of course, when the dominant groups become minority, they discover the virtues of fairness.  For the first time.

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

The hypocrisy is what bothers me about it as well.  Christians will get someone to be the figurehead and tell everyone that it's a secular display.  But when they look in the mirror at night, there is no way they aren't telling themselves their winning one for God.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

The hypocrisy is what bothers me about it as well.  Christians will get someone to be the figurehead and tell everyone that it's a secular display.  But when they look in the mirror at night, there is no way they aren't telling themselves their winning one for God.  

 

 

Praise the Load.  

[RevBogovac]

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Praise the Load.  

 

Pun intended...?

[RevBogovac]

On 10/10/2017 at 3:29 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

1.  [...] Perhaps in the sense of not teaching critical thinking skills.  [...]

 

2.  Better medical care.  Safer conditions.  Not more sanity.  

 

 

 

 

1. Exactly; and,

 

2. true (especially that "conditions" part...).

[Pete]

It has taken me a long time to be able to get hold of research into religious history. I think it is a political thing. If people are meek and submissive to religious leaders they are more manageable.  The trouble is many of these religions worked in there own states but now the world is getting smaller they are crossing each other and so there is conflict. Secularism works for both states but religion does not but each state continues to promote it and so there is conflict even to the point of terrorism. One madness verses another. That coupled with the struggle for power in this world it just makes a terrifying soup of hatred.  

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

17 hours ago, Pete said:

It has taken me a long time to be able to get hold of research into religious history. I think it is a political thing. If people are meek and submissive to religious leaders they are more manageable.  The trouble is many of these religions worked in there own states but now the world is getting smaller they are crossing each other and so there is conflict. Secularism works for both states but religion does not but each state continues to promote it and so there is conflict even to the point of terrorism. One madness verses another. That coupled with the struggle for power in this world it just makes a terrifying soup of hatred.  

 

 

 

This part of religion has always been obvious.  The pious are depicted as being sheep.

 

Psalm 23:  "The Lord is my shepherd.  I shall not want."

 

Do you know anything about real shepherds?  They kill their sheep, eat their flesh and wear their skins.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Pun intended...?

 

 

Yes.