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SisterSalome

Chart: Gnostic, Agnostic, Theist, Atheist

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20 hours ago, SisterSalome said:

I sense discomfort in your opening statement and this final one. I'm not trying to put anyone in a box. I invited others to put themselves in a box if they so desire for simply the sake of us finding common grounds with each-other (if any) and for fun. I got that sentiment sadly, from Jonathan that is inferring I am attempting to label others when clearly I've only been attempting to label myself (and invited other to label me and invited others to label themselves if they so desire). Anyone who does not wish to participate in a thread I make, feel free to ignore it. 

If you put up a chart then it presumes to me a belief that one can be charted. I was just pointing out that things are not always that simple. No offense meant. I have even tried questionnaires but I was never happy with conclusions. I have looked at many faiths but I do not fit easily in any of them. I never said I did not want to participate. Maybe there is presumptions in both of us. No offense meant. Boxes do not fit comfortably with many of us. I personally do not like boxes as they often come the assumption that I should then conform as such. I hope you can see what I mean. No dig meant.

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I, personally, don't think the chart thing was meant to be a tool, except to those whom may take such things seriously. I rather fancy it as an amusing bit of entertainment and thought provoker.

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1 hour ago, Key said:

I, personally, don't think the chart thing was meant to be a tool, except to those whom may take such things seriously. I rather fancy it as an amusing bit of entertainment and thought provoker.

For me, the chart is in a slightly different context.  The people who get all bent out of shape arguing about the difference between Atheist and Agnostic.  This chart is an expression of that argument.  The passions over this issue are astonishing.

:whist:

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Did you notice the shift from "It is not possible to be %100 certain" to "doesn't claim to know with %100 certainty"? Thay shift is telling, to me, as I don't claim to know whether it is possible to know....

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33 minutes ago, mererdog said:

Did you notice the shift from "It is not possible to be %100 certain" to "doesn't claim to know with %100 certainty"? Thay shift is telling, to me, as I don't claim to know whether it is possible to know....

 

I agree that we can not know with certainty whether or not God exists.  That leaves us to examine the evidence and think in terms of probability.  To me, the existence of the Biblical God  seems unlikely.  The probability of God's existence is still greater than absolute zero.  

If we expand the definition of God to something other than the Biblical God; the odds in favor of God's existence seem to improve.  Certainty either way continues to elude.

Happily, I am Agnostic, so I don't feel that I need to "know."  I don't know.  I am also Atheist, meaning nothing more than I lack belief.  God might exist.  I lack "belief," either way.

In case it needs to be said, I have no issues with those who disagree with me.  Clearly this is a matter of opinion which can not be proved either way.  Does God exist?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  What is, is.  What is not, is not.  Neither belief nor disbelief changes anything.  IMO

:whist:

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Happily, I am Agnostic, so I don't feel that I need to "know."  I don't know.  I am also Atheist, meaning nothing more than I lack belief.  God might exist.  I lack "belief," either way.

In case it needs to be said, I have no issues with those who disagree with me.  Clearly this is a matter of opinion which can not be proved either way.  Does God exist?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  What is, is.  What is not, is not.  Neither belief nor disbelief changes anything.  IMO

:whist:

Succinctly put and well articulated.. Belief is not about evidence, its just a choice that's usually based on hope. But when someone has hope, I believe it can change them, whether their belief its true or not...  That said, I probably have absolutely no business posting on this thread, not exactly my forte :unsure:

Edited by Dan56

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10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Succinctly put and well articulated.. Belief is not about evidence, its just a choice that's usually based on hope. But when someone has hope, I believe it can change them, whether their belief its true or not...  That said, I probably have absolutely no business posting on this thread, not exactly my forte :unsure:

You have as much business on this thread as anybody else.  Obviously, you're a Theist.  It goes with being Christian.

The question is, are you a Gnostic Theist or an Agnostic Theist?  Your call.     :D 

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On reflection, there are a few weaknesses with this chart.  There is no distinction between Theists and Poly-theists.  

The chart also makes no distinctions about the intensity of religious belief/opinion.  Perhaps a third axis?     :mellow:

 

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8 hours ago, cuchulain said:

How about, observer to those on the chart? :)  That seems a pretty unique position to me.

 

The chart seems to be concerned about the spectrum of belief and knowledge.  Why then are there no distinctions between Monotheism, Polytheism, Deism, Pantheism, etc.? They are all interchangeable.  Mild acceptance is equal to passionate devotion.  Without good questions, the answers don't matter.  Unless of course, all belief and knowledge are interchangeable.  

The underlying assumption behind the chart is a Judeo-Christian Monotheism.  It is going to distort everything else.  Even within these narrow limits, we need at least one more axis for intensity levels.

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

The chart seems to be concerned about the spectrum of belief and knowledge.  Why then are there no distinctions between Monotheism, Polytheism, Deism, Pantheism, etc.? They are all interchangeable.  Mild acceptance is equal to passionate devotion.  Without good questions, the answers don't matter.  Unless of course, all belief and knowledge are interchangeable.  

The underlying assumption behind the chart is a Judeo-Christian Monotheism.  It is going to distort everything else.  Even within these narrow limits, we need at least one more axis for intensity levels.

I agree. I am a polytheist, and the chart does not take into account the nature of the god or gods implied. I believe in spirit entities and ancestral spirits that could be labeled gods from a polytheistic or an animistic viewpoint. But I do not believe in a Supreme Being or any entity comparable to the Judeo-Christian God who would possess the attributes that god is usually given by his followers (omniscience, omnipotence, etc.). I also do not like the 100% certainty. I do believe what I believe, but I do not claim to know anything with 100% certainty. I just feel that this chart is simply the equivalent of a Cosmopolitan magazine relationship quiz, and meant more for entertainment than actual use :)

Bendithion (Blessings),

Gruffydd y Dryw /|\

Edited by Gruffydd y Dryw

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It is one of the weaknesses of the Atheist label.  People don't bother to specify what God, or gods, they don't believe in.  The minority options  are ignored.  There are a few videos, where Sam Harris talks about how he used to say thqt nobody believes in the old gods, while still believing in God.  Then he started getting hate mail from the people who do follow the old gods.  Even the Atheists and Agnostics forget that the old gods, or at least their followers, are still around.

Of course, the old word was "Atheoi."  Without gods.

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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It is one of the weaknesses of the Atheist label.  People don't bother to specify what God, or gods, they don't believe in.  The minority options  are ignored.  There are a few videos, where Sam Harris talks about how he used to say thqt nobody believes in the old gods, while still believing in God.  Then he started getting hate mail from the people who do follow the old gods.  Even the Atheists and Agnostics forget that the old gods, or at least their followers, are still around.

Of course, the old word was "Atheoi."  Without gods.

Hi Jonathan :) ,

Even among Druids, Witches, and Pagans there are those who follow some Eastern concept of a Divine All instead of following the gods of their ancestors. Others worship Nature in a generic sense but do not honor the old gods. Some are even Atheist or Agnostic but are attracted to other aspects of adopting a modern Pagan path. I'm afraid that some see those of us who follow the old gods as an anachronism not worthy of the current age. But for now we still remain, like the last of Tolkien's elves in Middle-earth (or perhaps more like Gandalf and the Istari :wizard:). ;) 

Bendithion (Blessings),

Gruffydd y Dryw /|\

Edited by Gruffydd y Dryw

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On 3/12/2016 at 3:43 AM, Dan56 said:

Succinctly put and well articulated.. Belief is not about evidence, its just a choice that's usually based on hope. But when someone has hope, I believe it can change them, whether their belief its true or not...  That said, I probably have absolutely no business posting on this thread, not exactly my forte :unsure:

Fair point (imo). According to the "Pagan Pathways" book by Harvey and Hardman some adopt a belief not because it evidently provable or even true but because a belief can help them change. I know it is debatable to some but there is such a thing as Atheist Christians who follow the philosophy of Jesus' teaching without believing him to be divine or that there is a god. In a sense it is not the belief that is important but the effect an adopted belief has on a person. Same as one can believe in Karma because they believe there is good in being loving and it has its own reward, but proving it would be another matter. Yet, I accept this belief works for some very respected people (imo)... 

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4 hours ago, Gruffydd y Dryw said:

Hi Jonathan :) ,

Even among Druids, Witches, and Pagans there are those who follow some Eastern concept of a Divine All instead of following the gods of their ancestors. Others worship Nature in a generic sense but do not honor the old gods. Some are even Atheist or Agnostic but are attracted to other aspects of adopting a modern Pagan path. I'm afraid that some see those of us who follow the old gods as an anachronism not worthy of the current age. But for now we still remain, like the last of Tolkien's elves in Middle-earth (or perhaps more like Gandalf and the Istari :wizard:). ;) 

Bendithion (Blessings),

Gruffydd y Dryw /|\

Even now, if we know what we are looking at, the old gods are still with us.  In Guys and Dolls, when the gambler sings "Luck be a Lady" -- nobody has to explain who Lady Luck is.  We all know who Lady Luck is.  We also know who Jack Frost is, without an explanation.  And Father Time.  And Old Man Winter.  And Baby New Year.  And Mother Nature.  Death rides a pale horse.  The old gods have name changes.  They are depicted differently, but they live on.  Sometimes even without a name change.  Cupid hasn't changed at all.

Look at the Statue of Liberty -- "Lady Liberty."  All we need to add is a priesthood and an altar, and we can literally worship at Liberty's feet.

:D 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:42 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Even now, if we know what we are looking at, the old gods are still with us.  In Guys and Dolls, when the gambler sings "Luck be a Lady" -- nobody has to explain who Lady Luck is.  We all know who Lady Luck is.  We also know who Jack Frost is, without an explanation.  And Father Time.  And Old Man Winter.  And Baby New Year.  And Mother Nature.  Death rides a pale horse.  The old gods have name changes.  They are depicted differently, but they live on.  Sometimes even without a name change.  Cupid hasn't changed at all.

Look at the Statue of Liberty -- "Lady Liberty."  All we need to add is a priesthood and an altar, and we can literally worship at Liberty's feet.

:D 

Thank you, Jonathan, That was very insightful :)

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6 hours ago, Gruffydd y Dryw said:

Thank you, Jonathan, That was very insightful :)

Sometimes, we can see the old gods being worshiped.  Consider old Hermes, the "messenger of the gods."  We see him depicted even now as the symbol of FTD Florists, winged sandals and all.  Hermes had an interesting development.  He started off as "messenger of the gods."  From there, god of the roads.  Then god of the cross roads.  What happened at the cross roads?  Hermes became the god of commerce, physicians, thieves and gamblers.

Yes.  Gamblers.  What do people shout when they are throwing the dice?  "C'mon Seven!  Daddy needs a new pair of shoes!"  It makes sense.  Nobody understands the need for nice footwear like the "messenger of the gods" who also has a special interest in gambling.

Hermes, messenger of the gods, also had a well known staff.  Messengers would have a staff.  Look at Hermes's staff.  It is the symbol of the American Medical Association.  He is the god of physicians.  When we look at the staff, what do we see? Wrapped around the staff, there are two snakes.  The staff represents the human spine.  The two snakes are the energies that travel up and down the spine.  Where they meet are the seven major chakras in the head and spine.

Santa Claus is an interesting deity.  He keeps lists of who's "naughty and nice."  He knows when we are sleeping and he knows when we are awake.........  He sure looks like a god.

Jack Frost paints our windows with Frost.  He sure looks like a minor weather deity.

Old Man Winter is used to sell snow tires.  Our old enemy, out to get us.

Who is Lady Luck?  The ancient Greeks and the ancient Norse knew all about the Three Fates.  The Fates have consolidated into Luck, but the line is clear enough.

Mother Nature looks a lot like the old Earth goddess, known by many names.

So it goes.  You would never guess that Monotheism had won out.

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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Reminds me of George Carlin...They've tricked you into believing there's an invisible man in the sky, and he's watching everything we do, and is especially concerned with what we do when we're naked.  He has a list of things he doesn't want us to do, and he has a special place he'll put us if we do anything on that list of things, full of fire, and pain, and torture...but he loves you".

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5 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Reminds me of George Carlin...They've tricked you into believing there's an invisible man in the sky, and he's watching everything we do, and is especially concerned with what we do when we're naked.  He has a list of things he doesn't want us to do, and he has a special place he'll put us if we do anything on that list of things, full of fire, and pain, and torture...but he loves you".

 

Sort of.  We grow up thinking that Monotheism has replaced everything that came before.  Except that if we take a closer look, and actually see what we are looking at; the old gods are still here.  The names change.  The forms change.  But they never left.  They hide in plain sight.

:whist:

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Sort of.  We grow up thinking that Monotheism has replaced everything that came before.  Except that if we take a closer look, and actually see what we are looking at; the old gods are still here.  The names change.  The forms change.  But they never left.  They hide in plain sight.

:whist:

Perhaps even united in one persona? ^_^

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