What Hell Man?

[Stormson]

So.. Im OLD SCHOOL Chatholic... I am a ULC Preast... BUT...

Ok... Hypthetical.. What would or SHOULD be done in this situation...

Imagine.. If you will.. One of your WORST enemies ever came to you and said that they needed a priest. They made you SWEAR to the confesional.. And the trust that contains.

Then they told you that they where dieing from an intential overdose.

I am a Priest... If I break the trust of the confesional no one can EVER come to me again... But if I dont.. well.. I have SEEN first hand where suicides go.... It ISNT pretty. And we ARE dealing with his imortal soul.

I dont feel that I am breaking anything HERE as this is somewhat anonymous... Youy dont know him, but I do.

EVERYTHING in me SCREAMS call the ambulance.... EXCEPT the confesional. How do I betray him without betraying him?

BTW... I kinda need help on this RIGHT NOW... I dont know WHAT to do here. I have faced this before and the man died.... I am QUITE sure that he is in hell for it. But I take the santaty of ther confessional QUITE seriously...

What the HELL amn.... What a trip to dump on me.. BUT.. I am the only Priest he has.. who else COULD he dump it on? **...

[Bro. Hex]

Call the ambulance...

and don't tell the hospital how you know "what you know"

You haven't said "He told me this", so you haven't violated "the seal",

Just say: "I can't tell you How I Know, but I KNOW...and this man needs a stomach pump"

[RevJohnG]

hmmmm

[Stormson]

Call the ambulance...

and don't tell the hospital how you know "what you know"

You haven't said "He told me this", so you haven't violated "the seal",

Just say: "I can't tell you How I Know, but I KNOW...and this man needs a stomach pump"

The cops dont have that kinda tech here bro... We live in a whooping city of about 1000 people...

It doesnt mattter... Its done now.

[BrDevon]

I tell people up front: if it involves harming yourself or others, all bets are off. If they continue to confess, that's on them. If they choose not to, I didn't know a thing, it's between them and the Almighty.

The clergy/penitent privilege does not mean that you seal everything. If someone tells you they are planning a murder and you fail to act, you are an accessory. It's just easier and more "fair" to tell the penitent up front where the line is drawn.

[panpareil]

If your hate overcomes you, call an ambulance.

If you believe all human beings should be forced to follow the dictates of your religion, call an ambulance.

If you think all human beings should be forced to follow the dictates of the state, call an ambulance.

If you fear the civil or criminal court system, call an ambulance.

If you are overcome with compassion for someone who has desperately and irrationally turned to a self destructive act, call an ambulance.

Otherwise, if someone has chosen to include you in a rational act of self termination, accept the privilege and responsibility in supportive silence.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

You didn't say if this person was already unconscious.

If he is already unconscious, you must call the ambulance -- to report that there is an unconscious person who needs an ambulance.

If he is still conscious -- we are talking about suicide prevention. It's more ambiguous. In particular if he is able to insist to the dispatcher that he does not need help. If he does, you're off the hook.

One more thing. This person is somebody that you don't like. Perhaps there is a history of emotional blackmail

or abuse?

Edited September 10, 2013 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Atwater Vitki]

Stormson - you said:

It doesnt mattter... Its done now.

First of all, my heart goes out to you if that statement means what it implies. Friend or enemy, the passing of a soul entrusted to your care is never easy. A candle is lit on my altar for you.

However....perhaps it does matter to help others in this situation. It's not cool of anyone to put another in this situation, but it does happen.

While the sanctity of the confessional means different things to various religions, I believe they all have some sort of "confidentiality clause" meaning it is between the person, you and "God". As their confessor you have the obligation to remain silent about any details of their confession. Hopefully someone that is versed in clergy law can answer more in-depth, but if I truly thought a person was going to commit suicide, I think I would at least try some " 'round the bush' tactics to notify health professionals.

I was not ordained when an acquaintance/client pulled this on me, making me swear not to tell anyone he was going to "end it all", then staggered out the door and drove off before I could say much of anything. (I was setting up to do a "last tattoo" for him in the other room) In that case I simply called 9-1-1 for a "suspected DUI" though the cops never did catch him. Two weeks later he came by again to apologize for his theatrics.

Every situation is different, but the sanctity of the confessional and secular law can often be at odds. Having to live with the guilt of violating confidentiality might be easier than 7-10 for manslaughter...idk...

You bring up a topic that should be explored more imho.

Blessings of Peace,

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Stormson - you said:

First of all, my heart goes out to you if that statement means what it implies. Friend or enemy, the passing of a soul entrusted to your care is never easy. A candle is lit on my altar for you.

However....perhaps it does matter to help others in this situation. It's not cool of anyone to put another in this situation, but it does happen.

While the sanctity of the confessional means different things to various religions, I believe they all have some sort of "confidentiality clause" meaning it is between the person, you and "God". As their confessor you have the obligation to remain silent about any details of their confession. Hopefully someone that is versed in clergy law can answer more in-depth, but if I truly thought a person was going to commit suicide, I think I would at least try some " 'round the bush' tactics to notify health professionals.

I was not ordained when an acquaintance/client pulled this on me, making me swear not to tell anyone he was going to "end it all", then staggered out the door and drove off before I could say much of anything. (I was setting up to do a "last tattoo" for him in the other room) In that case I simply called 9-1-1 for a "suspected DUI" though the cops never did catch him. Two weeks later he came by again to apologize for his theatrics.

Every situation is different, but the sanctity of the confessional and secular law can often be at odds. Having to live with the guilt of violating confidentiality might be easier than 7-10 for manslaughter...idk...

You bring up a topic that should be explored more imho.

Blessings of Peace,

Hello Al:

That raises a related point. Where does ordination come from? I used to say that ordination was from God. On reflection, I think that we ordain ourselves.

[RevRainbow]

Hello Al:

That raises a related point. Where does ordination come from? I used to say that ordination was from God. On reflection, I think that we ordain ourselves.

In a sense, we do ordain ourselves/each other, much like the early Christians, for some type of credibility, legality or perhaps thinking something magical will happen when the paper arrives. There are other reasons also, and everyone has their own. True annointing, however, comes from God and one does not need papers to prove it. I also think if one believes they are annointed, personally through a calling, or perhaps witness of others, application for an online ordination is the quickest route for the benefits of legal recognition. It has been made obvious to me here at ULC that ordination by many of us is taken seriously.

Peace.

[Pete]

I tell people up front: if it involves harming yourself or others, all bets are off. If they continue to confess, that's on them. If they choose not to, I didn't know a thing, it's between them and the Almighty.

The clergy/penitent privilege does not mean that you seal everything. If someone tells you they are planning a murder and you fail to act, you are an accessory. It's just easier and more "fair" to tell the penitent up front where the line is drawn.

Solid advice (IMO). Even in a hospital there are times when confidentiality is broken. You tell me in confidence that you have OD on something, or your planning a murder or you have been abusing children then I am duty and legally bound to report the issue.

[mark 45]

state laws vary,but your best bet in a case like that is to contact the police.if he were going to kill himself.yes,he may figure out it was you,but better to live and hate you then to die not knowing.

[Seeker]

If your hate overcomes you, call an ambulance.

If you believe all human beings should be forced to follow the dictates of your religion, call an ambulance.

If you think all human beings should be forced to follow the dictates of the state, call an ambulance.

If you fear the civil or criminal court system, call an ambulance.

If you are overcome with compassion for someone who has desperately and irrationally turned to a self destructive act, call an ambulance.

Otherwise, if someone has chosen to include you in a rational act of self termination, accept the privilege and responsibility in supportive silence.

... and if you think he's just messing with your head, say "go ahead - make my day."

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

In a sense, we do ordain ourselves/each other, much like the early Christians, for some type of credibility, legality or perhaps thinking something magical will happen when the paper arrives. There are other reasons also, and everyone has their own. True annointing, however, comes from God and one does not need papers to prove it. I also think if one believes they are annointed, personally through a calling, or perhaps witness of others, application for an online ordination is the quickest route for the benefits of legal recognition. It has been made obvious to me here at ULC that ordination by many of us is taken seriously.

Peace.

Most of your response is reasonable. It does however, open up a related question. What do we mean by a 'calling?'

I think that if we have the urge to become ordained -- this is the calling. Even if we don't use those words to describe the process. That brings us back to the ordination coming from 'us.'

Where does that inner voice come from? I don't see a contradiction.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[pmc]

If he told you of his intentions then the person is calling out for help. Someone who is serious about suicide would just do it and not tell anyone. You need to find a way of getting help to the person and still not betray your conscience.

I've seen both ends of the “afterlife” spectrum. One side is total acceptance and love filled with light the other is a black void filled with the worst kind of depression and regret you can imagine. It's likely that person will go the dark end of the spectrum if succeeds with suicide!

I can't tell you what to do but I'd at least tell him of the consequences should the person follow through with it. The person may find a worse situation on the other side!