Discerning Darkness From Light


Bro. Hex
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So, all of a sudden, in the last century,

Any realization that takes centuries to come to fruition is not normally described as "sudden",

but if you really "like that word", then by all means...use it to your heart's content. :)

"we" are suppose to acknowledge

Nobody asked YOU to acknowledge anything. You sure do like putting words into the mouths of others.

that humans are dark creatures.

Nobody said that either. The "darkness within" is only one part of the human story.

What a self-loathing pile of malarky.

If there is any "self loathing" going on around here, you must be doing it, because I am not.

However, I will agree that there is a "pile of malarky" nearby...the malarky that you are proffering.

Sorry. :hi: I don't share your astonomical level of negativity.

It you choose to describe "acknowledging that there is a dark side to human nature"

as "astronomical negativity",I am inclined to see you as someone who engages in "astronomical exaggeration"..

What kind of religious bull ** is this?

It's not even religious! It is a matter of philosophy.

What is your solution?

to what "problem"???

Are we supposed to kneel at the alter of government

What does government have to do with anything in this thread?????

to absolve our genetic imperfections????? Seriously, where are you going with this??

Wherever "I am going", it is apparent that "you aren't following me"....in every sense of that phrase.

Edited by Hexalpa
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Nobody said that either. The "darkness within" is only one part of the human story.

If there is any "self loathing" going on around here, you must be doing it, because I am not. However, I will agree that there is a "pile of malarky" nearby...the malarky that you are proffering.

Wait, you put forth the notion that we carry in us a "darkness," and I challenge that, and now I am the one advancing malarky? I suggest I am advancing something different, and it certainly does not smell of self-loathing. I asked previously, Senor Alpa, where are you going with this??? And what "pile" is it you think I am proffering?

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It really is a "waste of my breath" responding to you. You don't answer my questions, and you deliberately do your damnedest to misrepresent my words.

Life is too short for such game-playing. I simply cannot take your posts as an honest attempt at understanding the thoughts of another.

So I see no reason to continue to treat your posts as being worthy of consideration or reply.

I see them as only barely disguised attempts at ridicule and essentially dishonest.

You really ought to find a better use of your time...imho..

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Not sure if what I have to say is relevant to the discussion, but I've been reading this topic since the first post, and though I'm not quite sure that I understand the principle, it reminds me of one of the lines of a lyric I wrote back in the '90s.

From my song, "Following the Footprints"

"Undisciplined disciples pray, but ignore the prophet's shout.

He pleads they'll heed the warning signs, but indifference drowns him out,

'Cause when the blinding light of Truth shines through,

It always casts a shadow of a doubt."

Like I said... I don't know whether it has any relevance here, but this topic keeps the line running through my mind.

Edited by Songster
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I'm not quite sure that I understand the principle

Me either. Be careful of how you inquire about it, however, as people get real touchy.

I've long thought that man had always recognized darkness within humankind, and long accepted it as part of nature; but these guys seem to be saying something about the realization manifesting itself in the last century, and then only in certain humans. Perhaps this notion correlates to the explosion of psychiatrists and self-help gurus in the last century......

Since my dissenting opinion isn't tolerated, I'll refrain from any further attempts at exploring the topic. What Hexalpa says about it is the way it is.

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There's always the 'ignore' button.

I found it!

For anyone else wanting to do this, it's simple:

You have to click on your own name in the upper right-hand corner (to the left of "sign-out")

Then just click on "Manage Ignore Prefs"

and then specify whose posts you don't want to even see!

Thanks Mark!

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In this century we have been newly filled by the conscious knowledge of our own darkness - that we carry this darkness within us. We no longer need to project our darkness outward into demons or scapegoats - or, if we do, we know we are courting disaster. It is by encounter with our own darkness that we recognize the light. It is the light itself which shows us the darkness - and both are summoned from within us.

Lorna M Marsden, 1983

from Quaker Faith and Practice. GB.

A dark side to humanity of which we are only newly aware? Not really.

In Genesis 2:8, when it speaks of G-d forming man, the term used is וייצר

The word used is related to the word for intent or inclination. From the double letter yod the sages of Israel deduced that human beings have two inclinations within them, one for good and one, the יצר הרע for evil.

The only thing that perhaps we have become aware of is just how dark that dark side can be.

Edited by RabbiO
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A dark side to humanity of which we are only newly aware? Not really.

In Genesis 2:8, when it speaks of G-d forming man, the term used is וייצר

The word used is related to the word for intent or inclination. From the double letter yod the sages of Israel deduced that human beings have two inclinations within them, one for good and one, the יצר הרע for evil.

The only thing that perhaps we have become aware of is just how dark that dark side can be.

"Nothing new under heaven?" :)

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The only thing that perhaps we have become aware of is just how dark that dark side can be.

What does that mean? What new evidence of a dark side?

Please do not run from this question, as others have. It is an honest question that demands/begs/asks for an honest answer.

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I don't think RabbiO said there was any "new evidence" of a dark side. He has only said that "perhaps" we are now more acutely aware of it. We have no new evidence of the gravitational forces but when we fall down we become more acutely aware of gravity. With near instantaneous news reporting from every corner of the globe, be have become more aware of crime and the heinous actions of psychopaths and other criminals the the world over, making it harder and harder to deny or shut out the dark side of humanity.

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I don't think RabbiO said there was any "new evidence" of a dark side. He has only said that "perhaps" we are now more acutely aware of it. We have no new evidence of the gravitational forces but when we fall down we become more acutely aware of gravity. With near instantaneous news reporting from every corner of the globe, be have become more aware of crime and the heinous actions of psychopaths and other criminals the the world over, making it harder and harder to deny or shut out the dark side of humanity.

Right, RabbiO did not say that, the OP did.

But your point about instantaneous, 24/7 global news is a very good one, and supports the claim of being more acutely aware of human nature. But since the "if it bleeds it leads" mentality of most media is prone to only report and repeat negative aspects of human activity, it seems we consumers are rather enjoying this "dark side" because we keep buying it, keep focusing on it, and keep talking about it. If that had been the angle of this topic from the start, I would have agreed with it.

But this also assumes our forebearers were dolts, not able to discern human nature from the microcosms of their societies, cities, etc... I tend not to believe that, and consider this "new enlightenment" of our dark side to be grist for the self-help gurus out there, or the folks who advance the notion....oh, wait, I'm not going there, nevermind. Anyway, I think wise men have always known their nature and the only thing that is "more" now is media. To wit, this forum.....

I prefer to TRY to focus instead on all the GREAT and POSITIVE and LIGHT aspects of human nature. All the ones before my very eyes, the stuff media isn't the lea$t bit interested in.

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It is better for me to TRY to focus on all the GREAT and POSITIVE and LIGHT aspects of human nature as well. Trouble is I have had to give up watching most national and world news and really limit my intake of local news in order to shut out the constant crap that the media feeds us to try to keep us afraid of our shadows with stories of doom and gloom and rape and molestation and murder and mayhem. The most popular shows on cable TV are murder and rape programs that disguise themselves as informing us of how the criminals were caught. Even Oprah's network OWN has gotten into the act because it brings in the ratings.

Our fore bearers were not dolts. In the past people didn't share the bad things in their lives with every one as they do today. Families then kept their lives much more private than they do now. Most anyone who has had any terrible thing happen to them will jump all over the opportunity to appear on the Today show or most any talk show to share all the lurid details. Even many perpetrators of these awful crimes will appear on some TV show or another and the public just eats it up.

Edited by Brother Kaman
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~ Humans are creative, always have been. Imagination rampant & craftful in creation...

Not always pretty, quite true. At times quite vile. At times transcendant...

Humans be the craziest critters! :lol:

There's really nothing new being done that hasn't been done over & over & over & over & over & over before.

& before that it was done too :(

~ I believe that Hexalpa is proposing that perhaps humans may be able to get past that repetition.

That mayhaps humans may be at a point that they can 'calm the savage beast' & not simply react as was done before, but act more civilised.

~ I believe that Happy was saying that stating that all humans are inherently infested with darkness is insulting & not nice.

... I could of course be wrong & probably am.

I do apologise if I unintentionally offend anyone!

Please, I would appreciate any assistance to understand more clearly! :wub:

Edited by Qryos
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~ Humans are creative, always have been. Imagination rampant & craftful in creation...

Not always pretty, quite true. At times quite vile. At times transcendant...

Humans be the craziest critters! :lol:

There's really nothing new being done that hasn't been done over & over & over & over & over & over before.

& before that it was done too :(

Exactamundo!!

~ I believe that Hexalpa is proposing that perhaps humans may be able to get past that repetition.

That mayhaps humans may be at a point that they can 'calm the savage beast' & not simply react as was done before, but act more civilised.

We remain animals. And our evolutionary path thus far has not "cleansed" us in the least, IMO. Then again, there is strong evidence that human males have recently evolved to be more feminized, so perhaps I am wrong about how our perceptions (now with intense media) will alter the arc of our path. Perhaps that was his point? I was trying to explore this with him, but he did not want scrutiny, so it's hard to tell now. Evolution takes in environmentals, and 24/7 media coveragemust alter our nature and course.

~ I believe that Happy was saying that stating that all humans are inherently infested with darkness is insulting & not nice.

Please, I would appreciate any assistance to understand more clearly! :wub:

I think wise men have always known the nature of himself. The good, the bad and the ugly. I think most humans are "infested" with the whole array of natural instincts. To suggest this includes "darkness" is incorrect, IMO. Instinctive, natural, animal behavior cannot be "dark." To think so is, to me, self loathing; it is to not like our own nature or species, and suggests that we must somehow "change," i.e., to become artificial. I asked earlier, perhaps feebly, about what possbile change agent might it be to cause this artificiality, and perhaps I offended by this examination. I have long posted on this forum that we now live outside the natural world to a growing degree (one of my favorite topics here, actually with many implications) and of course this is impacting our evolution. Ironically, this may be our natural arc....the fact that it is what it is suggests this is the case. But dark?? Perhaps I just don't like, use or understand the term.....sounds like sorcery or fiction to me.

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