VonNoble

Release anger? I don't follow. I have been wronged and felt no anger at the situation or the person. At times I have felt compassion (at times anger too) but often it is more feeling sorry for them ....often...not every wrong was intentional....and certainly many happen because of ignorance of the facts. I am not sure how many people feel anger over being wronged. I don't think I quite get that. I rather agree with Songster - I have an option to forgive regardless of receiving a request for it, no? I am not entirely sure making amends (restitution for example) is exactly the same as forgiveness....(doing penance is not the same thing as rendering unconditional acceptance or love) ...maybe Even though I had some trace amounts of Catholic doctrine floating around an otherwise pretty liberal home growing up - I am not entirely sure that the Catholic Church regards God as the injured party but I get your drift. I think (one of the Catholics can help me out here) - I think the notion was more that YOUR ACTION might have damaged YOUR character or for want of a better word your relationship with God. You cut yourself off from being part of the good guy club to a greater or lesser extent and you had to KNOW that you screwed up and say so to get back in. Maybe that is half-baked but that is what I got out of what I heard. It was more for you having a way to regain grace and set yourself on the right path anew. How do you avoid doing the same stupid thing unless you take a break and recognize the folly of your actions? Oh well - I am on very think ice at this point so I will yield the floor to someone who can shed some actual verification of beliefs in this regard. von

FASCINATING! Thank you very much for this posting. It will take me awhile to fully absorb it but it was a most captivating read. Again, my thanks von

There are days I miss the norms too. You have hit something in here that may get to the heart of this topic better than the original posting (thank you).....did the protocols we USED to use allow for expectations to be more comfortable? Any two people (dating or not) at least had some degree of comfort because they had reasonable expectations of how the initial exchanges would occur? Interesting. von

Honesty is also subjected to equivocation. Which means the exchange can be just as imperfect. So I am not sure the structure in either case one ups the other. That regular maintenance would benefit from feedback. Which requires working dialogue. Perhaps from an imperfect foundation that both can at least understand. Hence, maybe, requiring an agreement upon which they can build. Maybe Fair? What's that? von

I can relate to this very much. Recent exchange with very enthused Christian. Christian: I must confess our church is one that goes out and knocks on doors to bring the good news to everyone. Me: I understand you are tasked with making sure that I KNOW the one true right way to heaven. And I "get" that you are worried about my eternal soul. Thank you. I have listened to you (and many, many others) Now to ask you a question, if I may. Do you think it is in your power to give me the gift of faith. My understanding is God grants that gift. I am happy for you that you have received it. But if it is true that only God can give that gift - why are you out knocking on doors? Christian: To plant the seeds for God. Me: if it did not take root and you continue to push - how is that different than stalking? At that point we both chuckled. I am with you, chuchlain. Each person lecturing me - thinking either they are the first one to tell me these things. Or that they will be the one to finally crack the nut. In doing so they fail to recognize that I have availed myself of every opportunity to share their belief. Yet. I do not. So end of story for this round. I listen. I thank them. I restate their position so they know I was listening but they simply will not STOP when politely asked to do so. Therefore, I no longer waste my time respecting their rights and views. I walk away. But I sure understand your feelings. After a half a century of this behavior one does get fatigued at the rerun of it all. Being polite does not equate to being a doormat. von

My father was Roman Catholic. He believed that the practice of confession as outlined by Catholicism was necessary. Is it? Is actually telling someone out loud you did wrong/committed a sin ...and hearing them forgive you.....is that component (verbal declaration and verbal forgiveness) necessary for human balance? What role does the need to seek forgiveness play in our human experience? von

I recently went to a PLAY version of Rocky Horror. All of the antics were in play there as well. I always feel a bit sorry for the custodians after one of those events. Especially so in a nice carpeted theater. Yikes. You make an excellent point of being able to at times more engrossed in a film. I wonder if the "close up" nature of film enhances the one-to-one feel of the experience. I rarely make eye contact with actors during a play. But the close up with corrected camera angle makes it appear that an actor might be looking at you with some approximation. Rather enjoyed the Rocky Horror midnight showings of long ago. What a crazy bunch would gather for that cult classic. I think I sometimes see the next generation at Walmart in the very wee hours of overnight. von

Yes. I have made more than one blunder in this regard. However, learning the best approach is easily handled with open dialogue and graciousness. My mother told a story of someone handling something "wrong" when at a formal dinner with the Queen of England. The Queen's response when the long formal table fell silent - was to opt to follow the manners of her guest and put down the spoon or whatever was happening and pick it up with her fingers for example. The first rule was to be gracious to the guest. Your point is well made and has validity. von

So etiquette does not provide a framework for learning the needs and desires of other people? It is not a framework for each to engage in dialogue? The rules are a starting point to assure equal time if to speak and listen if it is done correctly, maybe? Sticking to the script allows us to begin to learn, no? After initial contact, relationships develop by gradually finding a comfort zone, no? von re: calling you fat ...either of us has an option to ignore what we heard by pretending we didn't, no? There is little obligation, as a responder, to send verbal cues. Sometimes no response is the best response, maybe

All very helpful. Thank you. von

Agreed. Communications is as dependent on the responder as the sender. Good point. von

I don't know exactly. I have noticed that the divorce rate has climbed steadily. Not sure the slower process of mating, by way of formal dating norms, is involved in that. One is not indicative of the other. So probably no correlation. Other than somewhat loosely on a timeline sort of. von

Perhaps you did not hear me correctly? Perhaps I explained it poorly. Perhaps I was inquiring about your health. Perhaps I was noting you looked jolly. Perhaps I am clueless (I will vote for that one) von

Every human at some point has learned the value of cooperation. Each by adulthood has also endured more than a few misunderstandings. OFTEN these are simple communication errors. We thought they said this or that - and we heard it incorrectly. THEY intended something completely different than our conclusion. WE did not communicate our idea clearly. Both sides did not ask enough questions. Both sides jumped to conclusions. IF any or even most of that is true - why is it we spend so little time cultivating communications skills? Why do we not incorporate that as part of everyone's formal education? How do parents better their own skills in order to teach their children? How DO they teach such things to kids? Without some formal "learning" in this area how do we get feedback to know if we are effective as the sender or the receiver? Hummmmm......I need to work on this even though I HAVE HAD the benefit of formal training. Did we lose something when we stopped having some old school, boring, social conventions? Like how do we all agree introductions should take place? How do we interact (a bit more formally) in the first few minutes of a conversation? Did polite society have some conventions that had worth we are now lacking? Pick and choose on this one.....it seems worthy of discussion to me. Von

Referencing sporting events - a recent college football game reminded me that a LIVE event has the interaction of those around you to push your mood along. It can provide more intensity than sitting along in my recliner and it did. i was seated above the marching band section. THEY were comical so I sort of had two events in one. With the fist fight that erupted behind me - I had three events in one. I think I prefer the stop action close up of a replay on TV (at home - in my recliner) but then again - there was some heightened sensory feel to a live event. I went home smelling of beer and I don't drink it so there was even THAT as a residue reminder of an action filled event. von

Oh how did I forget them! ALWAYS an enjoyable night out for me. Thanks for the push to remember some wonderful past events in my life. Good choice. von

jonathan H.B. Lobl, First thanks for making me chuckle - you position mostly mirrors my own but i loved your panache in summarizing it. PASTOR DAVE: Thanks for bringing this to my (our) attention - I will do some digging around also. It was a good slice of information to ponder and worthwhile to do so. When I was new to the FORUM....I was taken to task by a then "ruling" atheist of the joint for wondering out loud if anything survives us in death....some spark of matter that carries our DNA into the decay process and beyond. After thinking that over for a decade or so - my conclusion is that it has no merit for me (just speaking for me) to ponder that any longer. What does it matter what happens next? I'll find out if and when there is a "next" existence. Just do what I can to be useful now - and let later take care of itself. I do know, for sure, that the lasting impact from this life is in our actions (or lack thereof) Thanks to all - good thread von

* The judge said under normal circumstances he would have sent the man to jail. However, the judge noted since my mother (who like your sister suffered permanently and forever because of his actions) - since mom had asked that he NOT go to jail - the judge would honor her request. He did NOT go to jail specifically because of my mothers opposition to it. * Not sure if the drunk driver quit drinking...I sort of doubt it. He did telephone my dad a couple months after the trial to apologize for the damage caused. His wife sent my mother a thank you card every year thereafter My mother sent the family a care package every Christmas - we didn't have much but they had less. * Although the drunk driver might not have quite driving drunk (again I do not know) but I DO KNOW...my father never took another drink. He promised God and the world, on his knees in the hospital chapel - if she lived (he was told by the doctors she would not live the night)....dad promised IF she lived he would never drink again and he did not * My father became a livelong advocate against drunk driving. They entertained still and served alcohol but had guests check in their car keys when they arrived * Since more than one of my siblings ALSO battle (present) or battled (past tense as in they quit too) .....my mother, who was a very intelligent woman......she understood Alcoholism is a disease. She addressed it as such and I don't think she would have accepted that jail cures anyone of a disease. So my guess (she died in 1991) - my guess is she would have opposed still a sentence of jail time...even then...to treat disease. She was a pretty big believer in life unfolding as it is designed to unfold.....our job was - in her view - to master enough character to face whatever was coming with grace, affording dignity....giving respect. She CERTAINLY advocated there were far worse things in life than death. Dad might have been bargaining with God for her to stay. When she did die - when she knew she was dying she was fine with it. She didn't want to die by any means. But one of the last things she said to me was she did her best to do her job as a mom. She believed she did that job to her own satisfaction and we would be okay. She felt she left the world better by making sure each of the five kids could support ourselves. And that we be decent world citizens. They were the old couple in many ways - dad would have probably said anyone else killed was God's will. She would have kept true to the doesn't matter when your life ends...or how...it only matters HOW you live and who you helped along the way. Mother didn't believe in the notion of sin. She felt we learn BY making mistakes. She often said - make new mistakes. That way you know you are learning. von

I see your point I have held the hand of the dead victim's family at funerals. From car crashes, drug over doses, accidental gunshots and out right cold blooded murder. Interestingly enough - I don't think any of the family members at any of those funerals (more than ten years of them) ever expressed this sentiment Maybe that was just unique to the people in our congregation. von

The most convincing argument for the approach used in the Netherlands is the fact it works. I have not kept up in the last couple of years however when I was active in prison ministry the Netherlands were certainly cited for their many successes. von

In 1962...many cars on the road did not have seatbelt. My father installed them in our old station wagon to keep us safer. My father was a heavy drinker in those days. So were lots of people. A drunk driver crossed the median on Highway 101 in California and hit my mom and dad's car - even wearing a seatbelt my mother went through the windshield in one spot and came back through another spot. She was a mess and we prepared of her to die. Nutshell of scope of her injuries would be 31 stitches in one of her eyelids. Her face was never the same. Most of her was never the same. At that time my parents had four children. The driver that hit them had four children. When they got to court....my mother took the stand. She answered everything she was asked. The judge then asked her if she wanted to add anything for him to consider. She told the judge: " ....sometimes my husband has driven while drunk too ....the wife and kids of this man did nothing wrong. To deprive them of a father and wage earner would punish five people who never took a drink. I could be that wife and my kids could be her kids...please consider that, your honor ....I do not think him sitting in jail would do much for any of us...." Like most kids I am proud of my folks. Especially of the fact no one was ever beneath my mother's dignity radar. She set a very good example for us. von

Having done some ministry in more than one prison - my observation (no facts to back it up - sometimes we see what we want to see) .....teaching another way to deal with life seemed far more effective than rotting in a cell. It was difficult getting a couple of tough guys to go through paperwork to get GEDs however they were motivated by special perks if the did so. And even more after earning their own GED - if they served as tutors for others. In (18) months in a "lifer's prison" those original two - taught ten more enough to pass their GEDs as well. The warden rewarded all graduates with a grubstake to start their own mail order business. The money earned FIRST went to pay back the warden for supplies NEXT....they started paying a few pennies of their earnings for rent. NEXT the paid restitution...and as the business grew they eventually paid for rent, for their own Rx and so it went. We are talking LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE. ....but the incentives to do something for themselves sure seemed to make life much easier around the prison for everyone.....especially the cards... Just an observation. To break this up (and get to the point of dignity there is a follow up notation) Von

Did you ever notice in" Death of a Salesman".....we never know what Loman is selling? Thanks for sharing. I'll look forward to additional notes in this thread from you. I did not peek but I am thinking "Death of a Salesman" was a big award winner for Miller. von

GREAT approach. I read this a couple of hours ago and I am still chuckling. Thanks. von

While I was recently tuned into a conversation about Broadway productions - it occurred to me I had read a great number of plays (scripts) in my life time. Which one would be my overall favorite. Not so much the production but the writer. Sophocles, Shakespeare (spell check accepted that version,) Ibsen, Arthur Miller? Ya got a favorite? von