VonNoble

I'll have to look up what half of these mean.....that is NOT a comment about anyone but me. Wow! I am getting old and out of it. Thankful though to be able to say old......so many didn't get to old along the way.....I digress... I don't know.....I am not that politically astute. I am curious about the use of the word justice. There seems to be some fuzzy thinking on that one. Justice to one person seems to equal revenge to another. Is justice, for example a form of restitution or a punishment? Both? Neither? Something else all together? Who gets to decide when two sides differ on what is their right? Who decides what is interference? If I want to allow my child to die - and I view that as my right - who draws the line in the sand and how does the rule get enforced. Determining the process might help you determine if you are a liberal or a conservative, perhaps. What is "responsibly" means different things to different people? Certainly MY idea of a household budget is quite different than my neighbors. I do not believe in buying things (other than a house or car) on credit. My neighbor buys a cup of coffee with a credit card. But he seems to be able to manage the payments. He is a lawful citizen as best I can tell. Who determines the universal use of such yardsticks? Strong arm of the law? Legislation? I dunno - but how you feel about that will help determine your leanings. BOTH conservatives and liberals might believe the same thing you do - as do some moderates - but HOW these things are enacted is quite different, no? It might. It might also make you a conservative, a socialist, a church or a charity. A really nice person (I am reasonably sure that is true.) They are noble and worthwhile beliefs - but are not precise definitions when used as a generality. Your beliefs are shared by many. Some on opposing sides. Heck no! It makes you someone I respect and admire. THANK you...seriously - wish we could make that happen a whole lot more often. Not at all! It makes you a wise person who thinks things through. And is flexible enough to allow new ideas.....considering each carefully. Not having determined an answer yet - is not at all the same thing as avoiding the process. Thank you for sharing them. post script if I messed up the multiple quotes and colors - hopefully a kind hearted moderator will help me - I can't figure out how to preview this thing and I am prone to screwing up such postings so thanks in advance. Von

Yes. Churches should pay taxes. They provide a service. They are paid for the service. They hire and fire staff. They give raises to said staff. They often promote over-paid administrators by the same numbers and criteria as a business (bring in lots of new members and we'll give you a raise for doing so or move you to a juicier or more prestigious assignment) - and on occasion that the preachers is able to up the tithe brought in - it translates to correlating raises of salary. (That is not speculation as in at least two instances I was in a position to know that is a fact.) And after retiring the debt on their initial building - they have excess to invest for years into the future. By passing the need to assist the starving of the world in the here and now. People literally starve while churches amass millions for someday in the future to expand and do good - THEN. Since this is a thread about opinion as opposed to law - it is my opinion that far too many churches aspire to influence politics and use church funds one way or another to hammer their agenda home. That agenda is about wielding power and installing their specific dogma as law as opposed to addressing issues of human suffering. And I have no problem with them being taxed right along with every other money making business. Churches and charities do many good things. One of the things they do exceedingly well is make money. They have to do that - it is the nature of the beast. So the question is how to they use that money. The misuses of the funds even by smaller churches is widespread. As best I understand it - Jesus did not suggest that we build crystal cathedrals to honor his father. And by example - Jesus preached outside - on hillsides etc. A great way to reduce the abuse is to limit the excess funds available. Tightening the budget leads to more careful administration or craftier ways to abuse the funds. I would like to think more carful allocations would happen more often than better scams. I see some practicality for an enclosed climate controlled building. I do not see the need for the dollars spent beyond creature comforts. Spirituality can and does happen sans luxury. The world over. In many religions. Some of the most profound and inspirational spiritual lessons have grown from the remote, from the depressed, from the diseased and from the very simple and plain. But that is just one opinion. I defer to the likelihood that majority rule will probably never see things the way I do. And even if they did - the majority would not likely work to change things. Frequently, I am not in the majority. And I am okay with that. Von

I have been hanging around the forum for more than eight years. It is a very, very helpful place as lots of very wise people are willing to share their wisdom. MOST of them non-judgementally. Early on there was a question raised about how much to "charge" when officiating at a wedding. And the numbers ranged from nothing, to $25 bucks....all the way up over $200 Each minister naturally must decide for his or her self so there is no right or wrong to this one. The more experienced voices when I was a newbie - seemed to fall into a majority (at least those posting at that time) that none of them officiated at weddings as a business. It wasn't a money making deal for them. It largely happened infrequently. It was a great honor to be chosen to officiate. And most often they did so as a gift to the bride and groom. On the reverse side (then and now) - there are those who feel if you do not charge - your efforts have little value.....that you are less likely to be taken seriously or afforded the respect owed to your efforts unless there is some obligation on the part of the bride and groom to offer an exchange for services. I am curious more than eight years later - what the majority of posters are doing these days. Disclosure: I am retired. I do not officiate for the money. I do not need the money. I am very honored to be asked and frankly have so much fun I sometimes feel like I ought to pay them. Even with the discussion that I do not charge for my services in all but two instances......the bride and groom have handed me money and insisted that I accept it....which I accepted ....and told them the money would be forwarded to a charity. thx, Von

old_nick: "All things are an argument, in the end. Life is war. We are at war with our very surroundings. Each moment there is other life waiting to fill the niche in which you stand. It's brutal, it's hard, it'd be cruel if nature were a thinking feeling thing. I do believe, though, that we have a moral imperative to use the brain knowledge has given us to find a way to minimize the brutality of life(Human driven intelligent design). But, as long as there are people who waste it on things such as superstition, we'll be stuck in that war. It'd almost be worth deliberately modifying the human brain to be incapable of "religious" experience as it is neurological phenomena and nothing more. " While it is a certainty that we have intellect - it does not stand alone. It is encased or surrounded by other features that often demand and receive equal time. Emotions for example can often over-ride intellect. I can reason forever and a day that i do not need to eat so much food. in fact, I am quite certain that science can give me a long list of reasons why I should eat less and drop some weight for my health. There are reasons why people should not over indulge in booze, illegal drugs, mis-use Rx drugs or smoke cigarettes. But intellect alone does not drive our actions. (Star Trek had lots of fund with that notion in the form of the Vulcan character)...... No matter how much we want our intellect to be in full and complete control - it is not. Emotionally we need to feel needed, appreciated and loved. If someone needs to believe in a god.....or even just wants to because it gives them comfort - why is it of any harm to me that they do so? How is that a waste? I see gamblers at the casino hanging on to all sorts of lucky charms and I am not offended by the superstition. Why does a belief that is not logical present such an issue and such an emotional response of disgust or even anger? Why is it anyone's business to eliminate that belief. In and of itself (within the confines of that one person) - it harms no one else. If the argument is because horrible things were done (or will be done) in the name of religion....were not horrible things also done in the name of science. Were not horrible things done in the name of medicine in our not too distant past? Are not horrible things done today in the name of profits? The religion of greed is a bit of a hazard to humanity. Why is theology the only "ology" to receive such a measured response? Why is it the entity identified as an enemy combatant? Why is "the self" (including that powerful brain) listed as the issue? Who among us has conquered self? Life can be a war. If that is your choice. It can also be a gentle float downstream. Much of that is colored by your choices and point of view. There will always be adversity and combatants around you; but you need not view them through lenses of their choosing. There is a great deal of positioning as a superior being when we mock those who believe in gods or religion. As if, any of us have risen above that sort of thinking. That is not necessarily true. We may have simply traded one superstition with a dedication or even obsession of another stripe...or perhaps we simply do not have that need any longer but have others of equal potency in our lives. Perhaps we harbor some other toxicity? One might better ask oneself - - - If am am so smart why aren't I content? Content to enjoy where I am - who I am and what I have. Contented people rarely are "at war" with their surroundings, no? Just a thought. Von

I try and avoid the extremes. There is never a time I am not grateful. Von

Hmmmm.....what about church organ music...like a pipe organ? No one listed guitars, rap or rock music.....curious....might be early though - perhaps someone will. A side question....is music really there to help one focus ....provide a break from the sermon-type moments...or is it really a vehicle in and of itself to "commune" with God? Or connect to inner peace more easily? Just still thinkin' on this one. Von

What music is sacred to you? When has music caused you to feel reverence? Is here a specific hymn or type of music that speaks to your soul? How important is music to your spiritual practice? And how does the use of music contrast with the need for silence in your spiritual routine? Thanks, Von

It diminishes you. Von

On our board we had one person who insisted strongly that we NOT become a "pay to pray" church......and on the opposite end we had a person well qualified telling us that people NEED to have a stake in the success of the church. They don't want and in fact would be unsettled by a church where they get something for nothing. Our solution. Keep the door open in that regard. People can PAY/INVEST as members in many ways. Some give talents. Some give time. Some give treasure. ALL CAN GIVE SOMETHING. So we recieve gifts-in-kind donations (plumbers, electricians, florists etc.)....we also receive those who volunteer time to do landscaping, buildling maintenance, yard work etc......and we receive cash donations. We considered this aspect for quite some time. Our final decision was membership in our little church requires ACTIVE participation. You gotta show up with some degree of regularity/consistency....giving money without giving of self ain't workin' for this group Many churches suggest a tithe of 10 - 15%. We don't make any suggestion other than we expect participation and an investment of time, talent or treasure (and most give all three). How did it go in Trenton????? Von

Simple enough - one of our church members voluteered an acre of land. We got lucky! I have to admit things may be a bit more difficult if you advertise the Pagan angle in some communities. WE would certainly welcome you as neighbors and be happy to share the church. I have found other churches in a hurt for money are willing to rent/share their builldings as well. Some will have difficulty with a Pagan group in their church but not all of them will. Some never asked what we believed. Only if we could pay in cash A local Unitarian church gave up on building a new church building and just bought an older home in an affordable neighborhood and that has worked for them for the past 30 years.....They bought it cheap and work on it as a group project one Saturday a month at least. At least two of the churches not too far from us are in buidlings that started out as trailers and were eventually converted - in time - to more standard looking buildings. There is nothing wrong with humble beginnings (or middles or ends for that matter) There was an attitude here with some of the folks that ANY church is better than no church ....and these people building a a church is better for the area than someone putting in a liquor store so let's help them. I hope that is your experience as well. Von

Does the truth come in colors? Von

Congratulations you are moving forward rapidly. Incidentally - you have a couple of years to get that 501 C-3 complete....so no panic. We had assistance from a CPA to complete ours, however, we did NOT as yet submit it. The reason being that our total collections per year are low...so there is not much of a tax issue to warrant filing at this time. That is not to suggest you hold off filing - but there is a somewhat large fee and if it serves no real benefit to you to have it (no one in the area to will us a big chunk of money - no matching grants about to happen etc.) ....so to date even though we have talked to the IRS several times (and they were VERY nice and VERY helpful each time).....we have not seen a reason to file. Also...we did exactly what you did .....got our EIN.......had the church structure drawn up and reviewed by an attorney - submitted it to the State Attorney General and we have been pretty much "there" without any real need to do more since then. RE: the building - we have one. We met several places before the church was complete. Our building is NOT fancy or large - we did ALL of the construction work ourselves or got it donated. It was a push but we finished it in eight months. Again, very simple. Very small.......but it works and we are glad to have a dedicated space to meet. I was amazed how many people would help us along the way. One person donated windows...another came by (different faith - barely knew him - and he donated electrical services).....one offered to get our fixture wholesale - another offered to install the air and heat at cost........and so it went. We had people from OTHER churches come and help us put the insulation in.....and help with the carpentry. If you get started - somehow word got around and people just called and volunteered. Without that wondeful American spirit - we would still be trying to get it done. The use of the land was provided for the price of $1 per year....with a VERY LONG TERM lease. There was only eight people (three couples and two singles) when we started.....and we are still growing - steadily. I wish you well. IF you can manage to complete incorporation and IF you are ready to file with the IRS - it is always best to do so I would think. But it will take a little time to have everything they request (like samples of your bulletins and stuf) - so they don't expect you to have it all ready day one.....and like I said - they have been helpful and have given us good advise so far so don't be afraid to talk to them. We have called locally and nationally and everyone was pretty open to our church and giving us assistance. Von

What defines a person as old? And what defines a person as wise? Is it likely a person age 20 - 25 would be widely viewed as wise? Von

Good for you! Gathering with like-minded people can be so rewarding and uplifting. It is GREAT that you and the Mrs. are willing to serve as leaders to get things started. From the tiny acorn the mighty oak grows........ Best wishes to you, Von

I wouldn't have had the guts to do that - but I love that you did! Von Not sure I get this....purification? Can you elaborate...new concept for me....thx Oh...you hit upon one of the very aspects that irks me so..... Rote...meaningless - obligatory......duty-esque.....often racing thru it - what's the point.... I totally understand that position - thx Von Yeah....I even found that part...and it really seems to emphasize NOT drawing attention to one's self....interesting how the application is oft far afield of the directive,no? von Do you think it is because parents don't explain the ritual? Or perhaps the time for having this ritual is long gone? Or is it, perhaps that there is a better time and place to gather for prayer? Like you - there were periods in our family life as a kid - when this was instituted and tolerated and other times when it wasn't even a blip on the radar. Why do you suppose we cling so hard to this one? Von

What is your take away when you observe someone praying before a meal in a public restaurant? Why do we stop and thank God for food - but not for other things? Shouldn't you be thanking God for other stuff just as vital periodically? If you know someone is praying in a public place - they gotta be doing something that indicates or convey's that they are praying (folded hands, bowed head....something to tip you off) - if they are thanking God - why show it off to everyone else - can't God hear them silently and without drawing attention to themselves? Why do we insist on holding hands with everyone round the table when saying meal prayers - good occasion to spread germs as most germs are on the hands? How many colds are contracted by this spiritual bit of ancient ritual? Why don't most homes pray before breakfast? After all they made it through the night? Why only the evening meal? I dunno about this custom - seems rooted in stuff that is not of this period or this century. But that is just an opening thought ..... Von

Perhaps that is so.....it is better not to harm another, but isn't that too an offense by omission. Isn't having consequences for your action part of the big picture? Isn't living a lie every day "to protect them" creating a relationship that is a lie? Isnt' that cheating a second time - by not allowing the injured, in this case, to truly know the character of the person to whom they are married? Or denying them their day to grow and forgive (or harbor and revenge?) Isn't that deciding FOR the victim that they cannot handle it? Isn't that a control of the worst order in some ways - assuming they are child-like or so terribly fragile? Isn't that kind of insulting? Would that be the proverbial insult to injury? I dunno - just wondering. Von Equally beneficial? Von Is protecting others from the truth perhaps a form of enabling illusions? Which would perhaps not be healthy for them in the long run? Von

So is pushing ourselves out of the way .....as effective as other resistance training - where one gains strength by so doing? This reduction of self - does this involve Jenny Craig? Okay.....so it would seem we need to figure out how to get ourselves out of the way? Hmmm.....seems the entire equation hinges on the world self, no? Von

That's great! For you and for the lucky couple. You are well on your way! DO keep us posted...the more info we share the better the professional standards for all of us. Von

1. Don't be discouraged.....lots of stuff will happen that you cannot possibly anticpate day one. That is normal. 2. Help is easy to find. Amy Long/Dorian ARE a great asset. The FORUM is a major source of good info and problem solving 3. Attracting others will be work....not impossible - but it is work. That is not a reflection on you personally, on your doctrine, your structure or lack of it or your message. It is work for all churches - even mega-churches. There is a certain degree of PR built into any event of any nature inwhich humanity will be gathering for any purpose. 4. Keeping them interested enough to engage will also be work. Not unpleasant work. In fact really exciting work. But work. It doesnt' just happen. 5. Keep the church legal and yourself professional (esp. in appearance) at all times. If you are not credible in appearance - do not go out of your way to say, "I am a minsiter" as you will put yourself on losing ground for credibility. 6. Be prepared EARLY ON to explain (in no more than three sentences) what your church believes. (also true of your membership requirements, your tithe requirements) 7. Decide on a governing structure early on (top down......democratic vote.....consesus requirements etc.) 8. Get your legal affairs in order AT LEAST TO THE EXTENT you can open a checking account in the church name and keep ALL MONEY separate from your personal accounts I think those would be a few biggies in no particular order - just numbered for my benefit as I am getting older and need a bit more order sometimes for myself to not lose my place. VERY best wishes to you and if I can be of any help - just PM me! We just had our second anniversary and it is GREAT....jump on in - the water is fine! Von

Is confession good for the soul? von

I am really stuck on this one.... Is there ANY NEED for a sacred text? Really? Jesus didn't seem to need one. Buddha didn't either. They founded religions that are WORLD-wide without a single written text that I am aware of .....no ten commandments in stone for either one...... The great Native American teachers didn't need text to teach. Does having a text make it TOO complicted? Too easily causing divides? Hmmmmmmm Von

Mark45, Good catch! I totally missed that... Makes me think trying to lose weight is affecting me more than I know. Thanks for the chuckle. Von

Some (in every faith) believe the sacred book is to be taken literally. No variation allowed. Others believe it is helpful daily - at a variety of levels but only one of many tools. Others think it to be a reference book....mostly of a historical nature. Good for determining the a reference as to how we got where we are with a sprinkling view of where we might go in the future but not particularly necessary for day to day faith-filled living. Relationship with the Almighty far outweighs THE BOOK (no matter what the book). Your thoughts. Are sacred texts, in general a cookbook for how you live? You get the basics there but then season the information to taste? Are the sacred texts a history lesson to be applied guiding us towards the future? Are they are written record of our past only? Are they infallable? If not - of what value are they as opposed to a common text? What makes them sacred exactly? Do we take up arms if another disrepects the text? If we were to do so - does that elevate the text to the level of being a god/God? Do we the people, by our actions and reverence cause them to be sacred? Is it possible for one God to have insipired so many sacred texts? Is it a matter of when written history entered the scene in a given culture? When do people opt to switch from oral tradition to enscribing the messages? (Totem pole, papyrus, printing press) At a certain level of development of a religion? Or simply when that tool becomes available? Lots of thins to ponder. When so many of any faith justify and define themselves by THE TEXT - is that really a valid approach to things spiritual? Your thoughts? Von

From a philosophical point of view ....does size matter in spirituality? .....Length of time? ...degree of frequency? ..........measure of intent or intentsity? ...and so forth? von