VonNoble

I try and avoid the extremes. There is never a time I am not grateful. Von

Hmmmm.....what about church organ music...like a pipe organ? No one listed guitars, rap or rock music.....curious....might be early though - perhaps someone will. A side question....is music really there to help one focus ....provide a break from the sermon-type moments...or is it really a vehicle in and of itself to "commune" with God? Or connect to inner peace more easily? Just still thinkin' on this one. Von

What music is sacred to you? When has music caused you to feel reverence? Is here a specific hymn or type of music that speaks to your soul? How important is music to your spiritual practice? And how does the use of music contrast with the need for silence in your spiritual routine? Thanks, Von

It diminishes you. Von

On our board we had one person who insisted strongly that we NOT become a "pay to pray" church......and on the opposite end we had a person well qualified telling us that people NEED to have a stake in the success of the church. They don't want and in fact would be unsettled by a church where they get something for nothing. Our solution. Keep the door open in that regard. People can PAY/INVEST as members in many ways. Some give talents. Some give time. Some give treasure. ALL CAN GIVE SOMETHING. So we recieve gifts-in-kind donations (plumbers, electricians, florists etc.)....we also receive those who volunteer time to do landscaping, buildling maintenance, yard work etc......and we receive cash donations. We considered this aspect for quite some time. Our final decision was membership in our little church requires ACTIVE participation. You gotta show up with some degree of regularity/consistency....giving money without giving of self ain't workin' for this group Many churches suggest a tithe of 10 - 15%. We don't make any suggestion other than we expect participation and an investment of time, talent or treasure (and most give all three). How did it go in Trenton????? Von

Simple enough - one of our church members voluteered an acre of land. We got lucky! I have to admit things may be a bit more difficult if you advertise the Pagan angle in some communities. WE would certainly welcome you as neighbors and be happy to share the church. I have found other churches in a hurt for money are willing to rent/share their builldings as well. Some will have difficulty with a Pagan group in their church but not all of them will. Some never asked what we believed. Only if we could pay in cash A local Unitarian church gave up on building a new church building and just bought an older home in an affordable neighborhood and that has worked for them for the past 30 years.....They bought it cheap and work on it as a group project one Saturday a month at least. At least two of the churches not too far from us are in buidlings that started out as trailers and were eventually converted - in time - to more standard looking buildings. There is nothing wrong with humble beginnings (or middles or ends for that matter) There was an attitude here with some of the folks that ANY church is better than no church ....and these people building a a church is better for the area than someone putting in a liquor store so let's help them. I hope that is your experience as well. Von

Does the truth come in colors? Von

Congratulations you are moving forward rapidly. Incidentally - you have a couple of years to get that 501 C-3 complete....so no panic. We had assistance from a CPA to complete ours, however, we did NOT as yet submit it. The reason being that our total collections per year are low...so there is not much of a tax issue to warrant filing at this time. That is not to suggest you hold off filing - but there is a somewhat large fee and if it serves no real benefit to you to have it (no one in the area to will us a big chunk of money - no matching grants about to happen etc.) ....so to date even though we have talked to the IRS several times (and they were VERY nice and VERY helpful each time).....we have not seen a reason to file. Also...we did exactly what you did .....got our EIN.......had the church structure drawn up and reviewed by an attorney - submitted it to the State Attorney General and we have been pretty much "there" without any real need to do more since then. RE: the building - we have one. We met several places before the church was complete. Our building is NOT fancy or large - we did ALL of the construction work ourselves or got it donated. It was a push but we finished it in eight months. Again, very simple. Very small.......but it works and we are glad to have a dedicated space to meet. I was amazed how many people would help us along the way. One person donated windows...another came by (different faith - barely knew him - and he donated electrical services).....one offered to get our fixture wholesale - another offered to install the air and heat at cost........and so it went. We had people from OTHER churches come and help us put the insulation in.....and help with the carpentry. If you get started - somehow word got around and people just called and volunteered. Without that wondeful American spirit - we would still be trying to get it done. The use of the land was provided for the price of $1 per year....with a VERY LONG TERM lease. There was only eight people (three couples and two singles) when we started.....and we are still growing - steadily. I wish you well. IF you can manage to complete incorporation and IF you are ready to file with the IRS - it is always best to do so I would think. But it will take a little time to have everything they request (like samples of your bulletins and stuf) - so they don't expect you to have it all ready day one.....and like I said - they have been helpful and have given us good advise so far so don't be afraid to talk to them. We have called locally and nationally and everyone was pretty open to our church and giving us assistance. Von

What defines a person as old? And what defines a person as wise? Is it likely a person age 20 - 25 would be widely viewed as wise? Von

Good for you! Gathering with like-minded people can be so rewarding and uplifting. It is GREAT that you and the Mrs. are willing to serve as leaders to get things started. From the tiny acorn the mighty oak grows........ Best wishes to you, Von

I wouldn't have had the guts to do that - but I love that you did! Von Not sure I get this....purification? Can you elaborate...new concept for me....thx Oh...you hit upon one of the very aspects that irks me so..... Rote...meaningless - obligatory......duty-esque.....often racing thru it - what's the point.... I totally understand that position - thx Von Yeah....I even found that part...and it really seems to emphasize NOT drawing attention to one's self....interesting how the application is oft far afield of the directive,no? von Do you think it is because parents don't explain the ritual? Or perhaps the time for having this ritual is long gone? Or is it, perhaps that there is a better time and place to gather for prayer? Like you - there were periods in our family life as a kid - when this was instituted and tolerated and other times when it wasn't even a blip on the radar. Why do you suppose we cling so hard to this one? Von

What is your take away when you observe someone praying before a meal in a public restaurant? Why do we stop and thank God for food - but not for other things? Shouldn't you be thanking God for other stuff just as vital periodically? If you know someone is praying in a public place - they gotta be doing something that indicates or convey's that they are praying (folded hands, bowed head....something to tip you off) - if they are thanking God - why show it off to everyone else - can't God hear them silently and without drawing attention to themselves? Why do we insist on holding hands with everyone round the table when saying meal prayers - good occasion to spread germs as most germs are on the hands? How many colds are contracted by this spiritual bit of ancient ritual? Why don't most homes pray before breakfast? After all they made it through the night? Why only the evening meal? I dunno about this custom - seems rooted in stuff that is not of this period or this century. But that is just an opening thought ..... Von

Perhaps that is so.....it is better not to harm another, but isn't that too an offense by omission. Isn't having consequences for your action part of the big picture? Isn't living a lie every day "to protect them" creating a relationship that is a lie? Isnt' that cheating a second time - by not allowing the injured, in this case, to truly know the character of the person to whom they are married? Or denying them their day to grow and forgive (or harbor and revenge?) Isn't that deciding FOR the victim that they cannot handle it? Isn't that a control of the worst order in some ways - assuming they are child-like or so terribly fragile? Isn't that kind of insulting? Would that be the proverbial insult to injury? I dunno - just wondering. Von Equally beneficial? Von Is protecting others from the truth perhaps a form of enabling illusions? Which would perhaps not be healthy for them in the long run? Von

So is pushing ourselves out of the way .....as effective as other resistance training - where one gains strength by so doing? This reduction of self - does this involve Jenny Craig? Okay.....so it would seem we need to figure out how to get ourselves out of the way? Hmmm.....seems the entire equation hinges on the world self, no? Von

That's great! For you and for the lucky couple. You are well on your way! DO keep us posted...the more info we share the better the professional standards for all of us. Von

1. Don't be discouraged.....lots of stuff will happen that you cannot possibly anticpate day one. That is normal. 2. Help is easy to find. Amy Long/Dorian ARE a great asset. The FORUM is a major source of good info and problem solving 3. Attracting others will be work....not impossible - but it is work. That is not a reflection on you personally, on your doctrine, your structure or lack of it or your message. It is work for all churches - even mega-churches. There is a certain degree of PR built into any event of any nature inwhich humanity will be gathering for any purpose. 4. Keeping them interested enough to engage will also be work. Not unpleasant work. In fact really exciting work. But work. It doesnt' just happen. 5. Keep the church legal and yourself professional (esp. in appearance) at all times. If you are not credible in appearance - do not go out of your way to say, "I am a minsiter" as you will put yourself on losing ground for credibility. 6. Be prepared EARLY ON to explain (in no more than three sentences) what your church believes. (also true of your membership requirements, your tithe requirements) 7. Decide on a governing structure early on (top down......democratic vote.....consesus requirements etc.) 8. Get your legal affairs in order AT LEAST TO THE EXTENT you can open a checking account in the church name and keep ALL MONEY separate from your personal accounts I think those would be a few biggies in no particular order - just numbered for my benefit as I am getting older and need a bit more order sometimes for myself to not lose my place. VERY best wishes to you and if I can be of any help - just PM me! We just had our second anniversary and it is GREAT....jump on in - the water is fine! Von

Is confession good for the soul? von

I am really stuck on this one.... Is there ANY NEED for a sacred text? Really? Jesus didn't seem to need one. Buddha didn't either. They founded religions that are WORLD-wide without a single written text that I am aware of .....no ten commandments in stone for either one...... The great Native American teachers didn't need text to teach. Does having a text make it TOO complicted? Too easily causing divides? Hmmmmmmm Von

Mark45, Good catch! I totally missed that... Makes me think trying to lose weight is affecting me more than I know. Thanks for the chuckle. Von

Some (in every faith) believe the sacred book is to be taken literally. No variation allowed. Others believe it is helpful daily - at a variety of levels but only one of many tools. Others think it to be a reference book....mostly of a historical nature. Good for determining the a reference as to how we got where we are with a sprinkling view of where we might go in the future but not particularly necessary for day to day faith-filled living. Relationship with the Almighty far outweighs THE BOOK (no matter what the book). Your thoughts. Are sacred texts, in general a cookbook for how you live? You get the basics there but then season the information to taste? Are the sacred texts a history lesson to be applied guiding us towards the future? Are they are written record of our past only? Are they infallable? If not - of what value are they as opposed to a common text? What makes them sacred exactly? Do we take up arms if another disrepects the text? If we were to do so - does that elevate the text to the level of being a god/God? Do we the people, by our actions and reverence cause them to be sacred? Is it possible for one God to have insipired so many sacred texts? Is it a matter of when written history entered the scene in a given culture? When do people opt to switch from oral tradition to enscribing the messages? (Totem pole, papyrus, printing press) At a certain level of development of a religion? Or simply when that tool becomes available? Lots of thins to ponder. When so many of any faith justify and define themselves by THE TEXT - is that really a valid approach to things spiritual? Your thoughts? Von

From a philosophical point of view ....does size matter in spirituality? .....Length of time? ...degree of frequency? ..........measure of intent or intentsity? ...and so forth? von

I am SURE there exists an exception to the rule..... however, it seems any religion I have chanced upon so far has a sacred text if indeed they have a written/codified language at all. And a good number have oral recordings of wisdom as well. Since I have not yet bumped into one wherein the diety has actually penned the words (all done human hand) (however allegedly inspired) - I have been wondering.... ....has anyone noticed a commonality in the creation of the texts and scriptures? For example does the development of a sacred text/oral tradition seem to occur in a certain RANGE of time in the development of a religion? Is there a catalyst that facilitates a need for codification of the story collection? Is it generational - like the fifth generation or tenth gets stuck with the job of becoming the spiritual historian? Has anyone noticed a pattern there? Or a pattern of similarity to the class of folks (or type of folks) that get tagged to actually do the scribing? Just curious. Von

A truly sad day for the ULC. What a courageous woman - such a loss for all of us. We are better because she was among us. VonNoble Saint, ULC

A big ULC CONGRATS ! on your canonization. von

Murph (and Josh) (Kevin) and whoever else was "in" on this surprise .....thank you very much Von