VonNoble

Can't recall ever being measured " on tip toes".......but I know I am no where near six feet in bare feet.....not to be confused with bear feet or bear feat von

According to a first blush ask on Google: The oldest piece of writing on paper is from around 4600 years ago. That cite continues with other written hymns in sanskrit dating back to somewhere around 1500 BC.....so they sort of do - not that it has much impact on the topic or your very valid other points. This concept is not limited to Christ rising from the dead - it also applies to the existence of Christ. You are correct. There is zero evidence he did not exist. Agreed. We should each reach our own conclusions..... Unfortunately far too many clergy - of more than one religion - INSIST that is not the way to go. And millions of followers do not allow that one simple truth to prevail. They believe it is their DUTY to convert (willingly if possible) (violently if they meet resistance.) I find it incomprehensible for someone to use a book as a weapon because of its heft alone. most sacred texts can be splendid tools for a better life for a us all. But NOT unread. Unread it is just another blunt force instrument.... Dan I thank you for a very well positioned response in the middle of the bridge of understanding. As has often happened in the past - your willingness to come half way over is helpful and also offers some hope. von

Thx for the clarification.... sometimes I am slow on the uptake. Your explanation makes sense now that I read it again in that context. Your point is valid and much appreciated von

I too have wondered this for a very long time. Why in the world did the divine being need the message recorded at all? An eternal being creating worshipers could easily have installed the message in the hardwiring or something. If you did have to have "go between" people retelling the message because for some reason I can not comprehend. Why as the maker of all things - would you not just keep the message clear and simple so imperfect creations would be able to do what you wish them to do? If you give them freewill to make it a matter of choice (or some sort of proving ground) then why make reading a big long tomb as the ultimate and only way to know the rules and penalties. I am fairly certain all of this ends in the word faith. Things that can be explained are explained. Anything that is a jump in logic or a disconnect of reason or an impossibility to science is a matter of faith. And for those who find this way helpful - so be it.....I know a large number of believers who are really decent and kind people so it is working for them. I am happy it is - it makes the world better to have joyous, nice and kind people however they get to that place. But I have often pondered the need for the book at all. Equally moral people - living to the same standards in life - some have never a seen a book much less this book - and still - they live exemplary lives. Fascinating point you raised. von

We humans are odd creatures. Full of walking paradoxes to be sure. I don't really buy into the concept of sin. But full appreciate the sentiments your express. Been there (way to often in life) - thankfully the wheel turns and eventually we wear down the obstacles. The Grand Canyon in all its splendor - emerged from individual drops of water at a time ebbing away what was - into what is. So too with us.....eventually our path gets smoother (right up till we stumble over the next rock) .... (or frustrating moment) von

AND THE ANSWER IS: NO BODY. Nobody is EVER considered ignorant....at least not in this FORUM. That is my conclusion based on reading this FORUM more than (10) years. We learn from what is said (and how it is said) - what is omitted, what is repeated like a broken record, who rises to the occasion, who never apologizes.... and so it goes. NO ONE is ignorant and all of us are capable of learning something from every post and every poster. Back to the topic folks....note: THE TOPIC (not fellow posters) if you please. von

How did this portion of your posting facilitate understanding of the topic? I might be showing my ignorance but I am willing to do that if it helps me to understand why that was useful, necessary or even relevant to include this sentence in making your point? Thank you von

,,,, its all over my head

..... that's deep

I plead ignorance. I have an appointment to have everything updated in January...i well may find out my new state has the same laws as Michigan. That's one of my motivations to go get it all reviewed after crossing state lines. Appreciate you giving me a notice of the differences The last time I did this they told me they would harvest the very few donations... they could use immediately....then ship the body to cold storage to be used as needed for any number of different places. I indicated the family did not need to or want to be notified when they were done as it could be months later. (Especially if you died with something interesting). Thx von

Excellent point! And yes perfectly timed. THANK you. Years ago I signed all the necessary forms for a donation to a medical school ( this was long ago....I don't think that is required any more)....my attorney and I had a good laugh because I wanted to request my corpse go to Harvard medical school to say I was admitted there. Incidentally, I also donated any useable parts before heading to the land of scientific discovery. I have use any organ alert tag on my keychain, in my wallet and in my will collection of legal stuff. PERFECT suggestion ... thanks!!! von

Agreed. That is largely the issue. And it is not a matter of opinion in my view. Historically, when any two people (or religions) or ideologic differences or even political ones for that matter, arrive to a point of confrontation - there is never going to be understanding if the platform is as you noted. (I am right - you are wrong.) When we were kids - we added: so there. If either side is representing God (or worse yet instructed to just kill the stupid and unreasonable "other" point of view) there is little hope of anything but violence occurring. No communications can happen. Therefore - the non-violent people will walk away (or sit down) (or kneel down to pray) or try to do one of those things...... the violent ones will act upon the impasse. Might equals right sort of approach. That is NOT a recent development - it is a historical consistency. I am NOT saying that the religion is per se, necessarily at fault. I believe the corruption of the message (sometimes intentionally by leaders)...is the catalyst for violence. I believe a large number of people who believe these text to be sacred are not really familiar with them. They have not read them! They tend to rely on someone lifting excerpts and spinning them to support positions NEVER INTENDED by the original authors of the text. Which is a pity. If believers who are (now) literate (judging by sales of smart phones worldwide) ....and who have copies of the book collecting dust (or stored in memory of the electronic devices) ....would simply spend more time reading it and less time arguing about it there is a good chance the violence and animosity could be reduced. If they took a time out and just read it....all sides COULD offer far more understanding and tolerance. It does not need to be "studied" so much it needs to be lived. It provides a blueprint to a life above and beyond one's own needs. it challenges us to live beyond survival. It allows us to reap the rewards of gratitude. It allows us to fill our bucket with charity. The message in there is quite clear. And a full time job to apply in one's life. It is a philosophical how to - if you choose to apply it as such. The same message resonates across religious labels. I have not read ALL of the major sacred texts but as I get closer to the exit stage of life - I am getting closer than I was sixty + years ago. The message is very easy understand. There is no need to complicate it. Take the message. Work on growing and nurturing in the world by living it. By example. I have noted that I struggle with parts of the Quran for example. But the parts covering charity and generosity towards others are not that difficult to grasp. I know many Christians/Catholics, Muslims and Jews who live by these documents and I respect each of them immensely. They are people who validate the sanctity of the script. Their life of inspiration and generosity validate the worth of the text. NO NEED for confrontation or analyzing it (in my opinion)...as each book allows for more than one right way. If it is divinely inspired the divine part is largely on the secret that each can take what they need in full measure to have a great life - if they just READ IT for themselves. von

How much more unreliable....hmmm. That depends on a great number of factors. Some people are biologically predisposed to learn and remember things via different methods. There are auditory learners, visual learners, learners needing tactile cues and some requiring a combination. Communications are effective when a signal is received; by which ever method, and the receiver indicates understanding the message by sending an appropriate message back. For a deaf person - no communications are auditory - but they can and do communicate effectively and are competitive with the rest of the world. They are not impaired in any way. They simply don't hear. For a blind person auditory cues might be more important than for an average person. In a culture with no written language - auditory records are quite good - in fact extraordinary much of the time. Again, this is all measured objectively if you choose to pursue it. If not - that is also fine. So to address your comment directed to me - reliability of written or auditory records are largely valid - or questionable depending upon specific circumstances. it is not an either or situation. It is an either is possible reality. von

A sincere-to-save-my-soul-person (and his Sunday go to meeting, attired silent wife) knocked on my door not long ago. They had big smiles and he asked what I thought God wanted me to do with my life. i smiled right back at him and said, "What God... or which god? He stopped smiling. She stopped smiling. I was still grinning. He started again and I interrupted him (politely) & told him in my faith (without using a label) there is no God! That was met with utter disbelief. He had found a unicorn! Since all conversation came to a halt I added a jump start. I explained I don't understand the usefulness of heaven, hell, the concept of sin. I suggested to him that him since I believe I am going to recycle through life another time or two - it is likely we might want to find a new topic to chat about. LOOooong pause. Then he asked if he could give me a brochure... I said, "Of course... and after I read it I will recycle that too ". Recycling is very useful. Anyone else a spiritual recycler? von

I am pretty okay with the integrity of my life. My parents raised me to look for good and nuture it in myself and others. I think that is also true of Christianity. Spirituality can can be as paradoxical as any other facet of humanity. Strangers have repeadly died helping ...even enemies. No logic there. But plenty of integrity. von

Thank you... the research I was referring to was NOT dependent on eye witness accounts. The point in question was a spiritual lifestyle choice that very much has stood the test of time. The very few rituals of the area provided the conclusion that the spiritual practices ARE consistent over time. You certainly can locate anthropology studies that could reference the point I am making. For some people morality is simply a choice outside the confines of written text. It it is not a debate. It is an academic realty.... in my field of study. I respect you enough to leave you to conclude what works for you. von

... if you are directing this to me... perhaps you overlooked the posting bit where I noted evidence of the - unchanged for eons...was in fact a reference to a scientific (objective) documentary-presented in a university anthropology (upper level) class...it was very much not any one person's opinion. It took years to accumulate and validate the work. As I recall there were multiple sources for funding including the Australian govermment. I apologize for not being able to remember the name of the study. My point in posting was such evidence exists if one chooses to look for it. You certainly do do not have to accept my word for it.... it was merely a recollection offered to another poster. thx von

Or implode. Or stagnate. Or lack relevancy. von

I don't think there is any playing going on - (just a point of view from the sidelines) - I think a very valid point is being made. I think there is an elasticity to this statement that is useful in this discussion. There is a justification for introspection in this...or at least there was for me. von

Reading this both amused me - then I did a double take and had to give that some real thought. This is an interesting turn of a phrase....with more than one take away.....good one. von

On the literary/historical level this may hold true...point taken - if the subject is one that is to be analyzed or studied. That shifts when the text move to the sphere of philosophy/ religion though, maybe? At this time, on this planet many of these books are not currently being studied so much as they have become flash points for violence. These books are no longer in the realm of academics. The religious institutions have become so fractionalized and splintered and polluted by greed and politics, there is little chance of understanding or cooperation ...if the text is used as an authority source. Those in charge seem incapable (or unwilling to) put the gene back into the bottle of reasonableness. It has been my observation over many years: true students - those who DO actually read it for themselves; those struggling to figure out the meaning without the benefit of clergy...tend not to need to discuss it. Living it.... is proof of their understanding. Coincidentally - it leaves no time to criticize others. von

Actually that is logic I can both accept and feel comforted by. Actually - that DID help to settle things for me. I think you managed to knock the sharp edges and smooth them a bit. My thanks. von

Anyone generously hosting STRANGERS at next month's Thanksgiving dinner. For the sake of discussion I am removing finances as an issue ( there is zero requirement the meal needs to be elaborate or expensive) There are lots of reasons not to do so. Who is opening their home in spite of the reasons not to do that? And what is motivating you to do so? von

Agreed. It seems I will be fortunate if I manage to half the distance I have yet to go....in this lifetime. I suspect I am headed for the recycle bin von