VonNoble

You are in a GREAT place. Congrats on that! I think you are correct. Everything - good/bad - painful/easy - fun/joyous molds us to the person right here in this moment. So lamenting any of it is unnecessary. Perhaps the timber of the word "regret" is in play. I have regret that I didn't catch on faster - but i don't regret any of the experiences that helped to shape me...is a workable qualifier? It indicates I "do" regret as a catch and release item. Maybe. I regret that I didn't have my parents with me longer. They shaped a great deal of my pesona and they provided a very nonjudgmental sounding board. So I regret that life took them away too early. I do have regrets. But in that context they are not obstacles to appreciation and serenity. The regrets sometimes push appreciation up to the rim. Seeing THEN and missing THAT includes celebration overcoming challenges. Still. I respect your recognition and mastery of the process. I often regret I did not seek forgiveness more quickly. There is zero reason NOT to forgive (at least in my view.) I live with heaps and heaps of gratitude that others forgive me so easily and quickly. I regret the hurt I have inflicted on others. Often unintentional. Often due to inattentiveness on my part. Not maliciousness. Frequently stupidity. Self absorption. Even if I am completely RIGHT and justified....if I had just asked more questions, assumed less and had moved a tiny bit slower...I could have accomplished the very same outcome more gently and kindly. von von

Yes. Forgiving oneself is extremely difficult at times. I agree. Honest self-analysis is also often difficult. Rationalization is FAR easier talking to one's self. Talking to another might, at times, more effectively because they ask questions, and too, they might point out inconsistencies. At times we say one thing, mean something different and lastly all humans to some extent offer glimmers of contradiction between talk and action. Or maybe just struggling. Regrets (and transgressions) (and guilt) (and anger) - are all items for which release, forgiveness and acceptance ask heavy lifting from our psyche I suspect. von

Thank you How do you determine when they have it right? von

Not carrying what others think is fine. However that that is different than understanding their input is, at times, of use. On occasion another holding a mirror ...spot on center is revealing. Often catching the light on us in angles we cannot reach, maybe von

Doesn't ever-changing self exist fully between the breath in and the breath out? von

Good point. That certainly is one possible scenario. Growth arrives with change. Discovering that our mannerisms are off-putting, our language ineffective our presentation counter-productive ... would all be opportunities to pause and check if that is helpful to us or ridiculous nonsense Either way they helped us. They gave us additional perspectives. Or they provided validation, no? von

BRAVO! von

Yes...either of us is the sum of our own choices.... agreed. At times others have helped me to see the impact of the choice in ways i did not anticipate Their feeback helped me to choose more wisely, perhaps, the next time My view of my action -however well intended-was not necessarily accurate ...it was not the take -away of others It is not .... very often It is not about pleasing them ....it is about communicating and acting more affectively Is it likely others help me to better myself, adjust the sails and course correct? Learning from others is a choice von

Can you really know yourself without feedback from others? Without seeing how others see us... are we not flat .... missing a dimension as it were? von

First I compliment you on your humor AND CERTAINLY stand and applaud you AND your visitors for the great exchange of ideas from both sides If we could clone that...sigh.... it would be a much improved world BRAVO.... every time we understand better win. von

Thanks much for the article. I appreciate it. In reading it it confirms what I thought I knew.... why it is a good idea for me to forgive someone else. It helps ME to do so. Buddhists liken it to grasping a hot coal. Hanging on to it only burns you. What I'm less clear about is the need to SEEK forgiveness. EXAMPLE you KNOW you made a choice to do ( or not do) something.... fully well knowing you were breaking a rule . You were successful in that 1) you got what you wanted to get 2) it doesn't matter if you got what you wanted or not... you bloody well know you just up and broke a rule.... others will trust you less if you don't own up to it no one knows or is likely to find out.... is there some human drive to confess ? Are we wired to seek forgiveness? Thx von

Are there any psychology folks among us who could/would weigh in onnthe value or need if humans a) to confess errors b) hear something akin to comfort in such circumstances or .... can perfectly normal folks just process it and move on without all the interpersonal connection I realize it varies ...however there is probably some " norm" someplace as a standard as we seem to apply it to figure out those not meeting the norm Thx von

One thing is NOT complicated. Atheists/atheists are about as easy to group as all other discussions of groups connected with spirituality or lack thereof. Reading this thread the fact they do not have a god/God has even come into question as a point of agreement. So what professes to be simple - seems perhaps not to be .... A side issue would be defining god/God to determine if we accept the definition. (money is god to some...so are cheeseburgers to others..and lets not omit the Rastafarians) von

I am sure that is correct. My natural curiosity turns to the psychology of it all. Was the confessional protocol (or whatever is the correct word) - the confessional process tied to any understanding or reason that there is an actual benefit to humans to admit to someone (the injured party or some neutral third party) (a counselor) that you screwed up. Maybe you are NOT sorry you just with you had done - or not done something and you want to talk it over in a safe place. A bartender may work for some. von PS....i too find many Buddhist teaching/approach have helped my ability to reason things out more clearly (and certainly more calmly) (that and my parents NOT restricting our solutions to begin with as they allowed a great deal of freedom spiritually growing up)

I am curious about this. God knows if a person repents. If that is so...then - I ask again - is it necessary to say it out loud to a human? If God knows...isn't that enough? von

...I am beginning to get that I need not capitalize it. I suspect it is a carry over from a World Religions class I took many years ago. It was Capitalized as a specific group in that class. So i retained that practice. But I am realizing that perhaps that class was grouping it differently for the sake of class instruction. This has been a good thread to update my thinking. Thx von

Agreed. It took awhile (thanks for your patience) but I am getting the point distinguishing between forgiveness and releasing. The original posit was aimed at my father's understanding that noting to someone else - out loud - that you have done wrong (and hearing someone - even if it it was someone completely independent of the events) just hearing from another human that you were forgiven.....is it necessary. He contended that it was necessary - on a psychological level. He based that on what he learned at church. Not from anything else. I am wondering if people agree you NEED to say it and hear SOMEONE validate in the instance of forgiveness. (On the subject of release - I agree with you...failing to release it IS biologically as well as psychologically harmful to us. von

Under that heading than Agnostics could largely be lumped with Atheists (which would raise the % of Atheists, no) Not that it is useful for any purpose but the doubters club is underrepresented a bit. It would grow as any person who does not specifically lay claim to a belief in a specific god/God would be default fall into the Atheist numbers. Maybe? If you are not a member of a god group (lacking belief) then you default to Atheist? Rather an interesting spin. von

Thank you so much. The fantasy version actually DID help me to get the point. Good illustration for the purpose. Well played and much appreciated. von

I see the point. I think it is different than the one I was attempting to make. Granted there are instances when a person CAN and will feel anger. I am noting that often the offense is not extreme. Therefore one can be wronged without feeling anger. Anger certainly is NOT a requirement for every wrong done to you. By the way I have been punched in the face, did not feel anger. So it can happen. You can be punched accidentally - not everything is a deliberate affront. It hurt. But I was not damaged. I understood it was not intentional. It is NOT a perfect world. Accidents happen. Not every wrong requires a person to rile up. We must factor in that sometimes people just over-react for a bevy of reasons. This Forum demonstrates continuously that even when we FEEL an emotional reaction to an idea we see.....that we fundamentally disagree with - we often choose to try understanding BEFORE anger as a reaction, no? So too in real life. I would venture that hitting back is actually NOT most people's response to getting hit. What the hell happened... is probably more likely. Most of us are not walking around doing things we expect to be hit over. I don't think I have ever advocated people be a doormat or punching bag. You can choose a range of options, even when angry. You can strike back. it could be necessary. Most often it would not be. But that is one option, when necessary. For some revenge is a dish best served cold. For some - walking away is also an option. Not every wrong is an extreme, ongoing or even justified. Some are. Some very much are not. Understanding is the best first step to determine if you need to bob, weave or run. ...or pick up a bigger stick to respond. If you note my comment was in response to this statement: The person who has been wronged needs to release anger over the wrong Which indicated a premise I did not grasp as true. A person wronged does NOT need to release anger - if they have no anger. Not every wrong results in anger. von

Thanks for hanging with me on this one. If you have wronged me (which you have not) ...but if you did and neither of us are believers in God....then there is really no issue. Each of us forgives the other because it is the normal flow of keeping our own life in order. For a God-Believer - some sects, as a matter of doctrine, believe that God DOES forgive them if and when they ask God to do so. He does not withhold forgiveness, as I understand it - but grants it upon request. I sort of am confused by "God" as a supernatural being - ever being the injured party. There may be a rule for a believer to come and state that the sinner "gets" that they broke a rule ....but I am confused that God needs to hear it. It is more that the human needs to say it for the human's benefit. God doesn't need to hear it. The human grows if he says it. Or did I take a wrong turn here (I sometimes do) - help me out and run it by me one more time please and thank you. von

Release anger? I don't follow. I have been wronged and felt no anger at the situation or the person. At times I have felt compassion (at times anger too) but often it is more feeling sorry for them ....often...not every wrong was intentional....and certainly many happen because of ignorance of the facts. I am not sure how many people feel anger over being wronged. I don't think I quite get that. I rather agree with Songster - I have an option to forgive regardless of receiving a request for it, no? I am not entirely sure making amends (restitution for example) is exactly the same as forgiveness....(doing penance is not the same thing as rendering unconditional acceptance or love) ...maybe Even though I had some trace amounts of Catholic doctrine floating around an otherwise pretty liberal home growing up - I am not entirely sure that the Catholic Church regards God as the injured party but I get your drift. I think (one of the Catholics can help me out here) - I think the notion was more that YOUR ACTION might have damaged YOUR character or for want of a better word your relationship with God. You cut yourself off from being part of the good guy club to a greater or lesser extent and you had to KNOW that you screwed up and say so to get back in. Maybe that is half-baked but that is what I got out of what I heard. It was more for you having a way to regain grace and set yourself on the right path anew. How do you avoid doing the same stupid thing unless you take a break and recognize the folly of your actions? Oh well - I am on very think ice at this point so I will yield the floor to someone who can shed some actual verification of beliefs in this regard. von

FASCINATING! Thank you very much for this posting. It will take me awhile to fully absorb it but it was a most captivating read. Again, my thanks von

There are days I miss the norms too. You have hit something in here that may get to the heart of this topic better than the original posting (thank you).....did the protocols we USED to use allow for expectations to be more comfortable? Any two people (dating or not) at least had some degree of comfort because they had reasonable expectations of how the initial exchanges would occur? Interesting. von

Honesty is also subjected to equivocation. Which means the exchange can be just as imperfect. So I am not sure the structure in either case one ups the other. That regular maintenance would benefit from feedback. Which requires working dialogue. Perhaps from an imperfect foundation that both can at least understand. Hence, maybe, requiring an agreement upon which they can build. Maybe Fair? What's that? von