VonNoble

panpareil, Thanks for the clarification....after reading your posting I went back and read that section of the reference materials again. Your wording is more clear (regarding the different tribes each having their one God) (singular) - so I appreciate that clarification. I had that confused. Your additional reference information started me digging a bit more into the historic aspects so your input is (again) most welcome and informative. Von

In spite of having a couple of friends in college who were Muslims I really did not understand much beyond the big rituals that are covered frequently in the media. In the last year some salient bits of information have allowed me to understand (not necessarily agree with...but understand) some of the dedicated responses I see from Muslims in discussing their faith and their rituals (and also their refusal to discuss these things)... If there are any practicing Muslims reading this - I would ask for your assistance if I confuse or misrepresent any of the core beliefs. In reading through some World Religion texts it seems one of the core issues at hand for Muslims is the fact that they can trace their lineage (as a faith) back to Adam and Eve? That Mecca holds a bit of the original altar used by Abraham? If these two things ARE IN FACT core beliefs; certainly those who are conservative believers would believe that the later arriving religions were splintering groups who have lost their way, no? Additionally, the VERY early days of Islam were not exclusively monotheistic however the Prophet Mohammed united all splinter and fringe groups into one cohesive unit that has since that time been very much monotheistic. Lastly, the amount of commitment required of a Muslim to practice his or her faith is considerably more demanding than most Western religions. Not only commitments of money and tithes but also large (and largely anonymous) donations to charities and charitable works. IF I GOT ANY PART OF THAT WRONG (this is new to me) - please jump in and give me an assist. If I got all of it right (I'll be happy I did that fairly) - I am also impressed that those who truly practice the faith are people who would be admirable in their behavior and social interactions by any other devout person of faith. Thx in advance for any assistance offered. Von

Seeker, That is sort of what I am trying to figure out. Just because ​I want something ....or I think something is necessary or a good idea doesn't make it one I have made a few million mistakes in judgement in my life. Which taught me I am wrong a good chunk of the time. Never having been an abused woman I really don't know (other than pretty awful) what the nitty gritty emotional churn they face feels like. If there is remotely a chance that such regulations exist - I would rather take the time to learn more, understand that my thinking is not going to make things rougher for them in any way - than assume everyone is starting the conversation from my side of the bridge. If such a regulation would exist, I want to understand why before doing anything that could 1) give offense 2) add pressure or guilt in a fragile situation or 3) violate someones confidentiality or security in any way - even remotely mererdog raised one issue that is in the back of my mind (and was early on) so it seems going slow is wiser than hurrying to "right" as defined by me when I in fact am pretty far off the mark as any kind of expert. BTW, should anyone want any follow up information this is what I have found so far..... 1) the fire department (of all places) had a start of some codes since it is a multiple resident facility 2) a former volunteer at the shelter from "one of the other churches" offered me a couple of good starting spots so I guess I finally have a first step and a toehold to getting to the bottom of all this..... http://ww1.umn.edu/humanrts/svaw/domestic/laws/samplelaws.htm http://www.ncadv.org/aboutus.php There was enough information on those two pages to get things rolling and I have recruited a couple of folks from the church to help us really understand what is expected and what is the norm for such operations. As always I appreciate the FORUM members for their input. Von

Kokigami, Thanks for your input. The director who told me all of this is someone I highly suspect is NOT telling the truth on more than this one topic. In fact, I would especially like to pursue as at some point, (with inclusion of the Board of Directors) asking her those very questions in conjunction (at the very least) with a performance evaluation. However, before going to them (the Board) - if anyone would happen to know what agency or agencies from the federal government (if there is or are one or some) that handle such things - I am reasonably sure I could verify several things that concern me. Your idea of asking her directly to cite the statues is fine - if all else fails. I would like to have definite facts in hand before doing that. Liars tend to be fast thinkers who can create more fairly quickly. Charismatic liars are sometimes more convincing than the truth. I don't know that this is happening, but there are more reasons than I have listed here causing me to think that is the case. To the best of my knowledge this one facility serves nine Parishes. And the other one in this state I was aware of closed more than a year ago. So as far as I know this is the only one left in our state. There could me more but they don't advertise in the yellow pages. The location of this facility is kept secret. Had they not called us for assistance (that we had to deliver to them) - I would not know about this place either. This may not be a solvable situation. However there are lots of folks on here in the medical field, chaplaincy situations and law enforcement that might have run into a facility like this (not run by a country or a church) (a free standing charity) .........someone surely does govern them but my visits with state and Parish officials have run into lots of dead ends. Which tells me I am missing a large piece of the puzzle in my thinking. I have contacted the clergy of the other churches I have worked with in assisting this home and none of them has any idea who actually oversees this type of institution. I check with sanitation, local housing ordinances (they are just out of the city limit) also with the Parish board, the Sheriff and and the local and Parish Social Services offices as well as the District Attorney and a librarian. No one seems to know who the definitive governing body for such a shelter might be.......The building was purchased and donated to the group many years ago. They receive an annual stipend from one single benefactor that pays the utilities and a set amount for staffing ....the rest is raised from private sources and somehow qualifying for more than one grant. My gut instinct at this point is - it has to be far simpler than it seems. Sometimes it is better to involve others as like most people - I might be missing the simplest answer. I have done that before. Getting help often from unlikely places. Thanks for validating my thinking is not too far afield in the questions that peaked my curiosity. Eventually I'll figure it out. Von

mererdog, You raise a very valid point in general terms. I agree with you and it definitely make sense. As noted the donors did not expect nor demand the gratitude (this time or ever.) THAT was strictly MY suggestion to the director. If I were in an institution and I was benefitting from some nice improvements in my living conditions, I might (MIGHT ) want to communicate those feelings as I would be aware that this was a kindness. I try not to ignore such things. Always getting without ever giving is not necessarily well balanced. Giving thanks while not required in any way - might have afforded someone a chance to reach back with kindness in equal measure. Allowing chores, pride, a sense of accomplishment is part of human life. Seems a life forced to constantly take without giving back would not be the best option. Your point is very valid. But neither point of view (yours or mine) will provide a comprehensive answer - there must be give and take from both sides of the equation. If you have no money - you can still reach in and validate someone's efforts ....not because they demand it or expect ...but for simply the opposite reason. They deserve it because they do not expect nor demand it - you actually have the power to offer something to them that can't be bought. You should, if respected, be afforded that right -in my view. Thanks for the input. I always enjoy your insights....AND assistance. von

We are about to celebrate our 42nd anniversary. We decided not to wait until our 50th to throw a big party - we did that at 40 and intend to do it again for our 45th if we are both lucky enough to still be alive to have that opportunity. At our 40th wedding anniversary we had a wonderful meal specially cooked for our guests at a very nice restaurant. It was a great night for us. As I looked around the room there was an assortment of married people and single people. Most productive, active and content. So both groups are thriving. When I narrowed my focus to "just the married people" in the room - I realized we had been married longer than anyone else that night. I guess we have been extremely fortunate in that regard. It got me wondering how much different my life had been if I had not met and married a person who made me better and made me want to continue to be better. One who is gut level honest even when I don't want to hear it, one who I can and have trusted with my life and one who makes me laugh always - especially during a crisis. One who never allows me to take myself or life too seriously. And annoying though it may be at times one who always sees the best in the world, in other people and in me. My life would have been fine either way but it is enriched because of the person sharing it with me. So the question is: What is THE BEST thing about being married for you? (for those not currently married - what would you hope to have happened when married)..... For those who opt out of marriage and choose another way to go - that is fine and this is not an attack on the single life, living together or any other option - IT IS however a chance for the married folks to focus on what is right with the institution as there is scant chance to tout it elsewhere. Thanks, Von

Thx mark45.....two issues ....one the funding is national and i have no idea who regulates such funding. I suspect it is a grant and I have no idea what agency. The other issue is I have no idea if these "federal guidelines" again are generic directives for shelter's in general or specific to a special HHS or HUD directive or what. I am hoping someone here knows something about shelter operations that might give me a lead. It is NOT a Red Cross Shelter directive (interestingly enough as a church if we house someone in case of an emergency at our church - we are not (if we are to be designated as a Red Cross Shelter) - we are not allowed to pray with them, give them Bibles or rosaries even if they request them - even if we do so away from the general population or otherwise act like a church. Which short of cracked me up. Obviously we did all of those things during Hurricane Katrina and we will do them again so we will never be an official Red Cross approved location. Thanks for the suggestion...not sure where to go...this shelter is not affiliated with any state agency (I at least found out that much).....and has some counseling assistance from the Parish (we have Parishes in Louisiana instead of counties) but I cannot find any Parish regulation about this matter. Von

For several years our church has assisted a local home for battered women. In fact, some of our church members have served on the Board of Directors and we have provided some fairly major support to the women and their children. We are not the only church involved. All of the churches work together beautifully to divide the labor and share the resources. One of the other churches recently made a very generous donation of both time and money to the ladies and their kids. That church also did some major renovations inside and outside the shelter. They added a play room and a library and gardens and new kitchen equipment among other things. Knowing this church group having worked with them before - I knew they would not demand any recognition for their efforts but I felt strongly that they should receive some thanks FROM THE RESIDENTS as their lives were enriched. I was told by the director of the shelter that she could not ask (or even suggest) to these ladies that they send a thank you card. She informs be because they accept government money they cannot require the residents to do much of anything beyond not breaking the law and having mandatory counseling sessions. The shelter may impose rules for the safety of the common good but the ladies do not have to search for work, assist in cleaning the facility or preparing meals even though it is listed as a requirement it is an unenforceable requirement as it is not a safety issue or a legal violation. Can anyone verify any of this or point me to a resource where I can verify it? Thank you. Von

You made me chuckle......because it was some what repetitive to me at that point (my mid 40s) - I skipped over a few pages of the book so I didn't actually read every page. I didn't want to claim to have read every word of it - If I, in fact, didn't read every word ( I am very aware of the overlap of information in the two books).... Thanks for the chance to clarify. von

Over the past (11) years I have seen topics inquiring why we joined ULC and became ministers. There have been topics asking what we are doing with the ordination (and a very wide array of responses). And lastly topics defending the legitimacy of the ordination. There are people posting on this Forum who were here long before I arrived and are still here. And then I notice a large transient group who are here for a few months or maybe a year who drop away and never return. So for those who are here now (newbie and long-time Forum members) - what is your view of ULC NOW.....not why you joined but I guess why you are hooked on staying? What attracts you and holds you to the Forum? (incidentally to Murph and the other moderators - thank you for keeping it together) - for those of us who are hooked on this Forum your assistance and your efforts are greatly appreciated. Von

I have read the Holy Bible (cover to cover) (yeah, I really did) more than once. I have read most of the Torah. I am reading the Qur'an ....slowly....as I have to use supplemental text to assist me with understanding a good many terms i heretofore have never met. I have read the Book of Mormon. My office shelves hold more than 200 books on Buddhism and and least two dozen on Hinduism. Over a number of years I have assembled a decent collection of sacred writings from Native Americans, a handful of decent reference books on Wicca and also some hefty volumes summarizing world religions. In all of that reading (and btw, there are quite a few people on this Forum who have read that many things and many, many more) (some in the original script).....so the point is not that I am particularly well versed but rather that I am asking a question with no intent to be flippant or shallow. Have any of these works - or all of them for that matter -had much impact upon the behavior of mankind, the enrichment of society or the betterment of our world? I am looking for specific examples of how these works have markedly changed/improved humankind (if they have at all) If they have not, I have to wonder why we revere them with such ferocity. If they have - we should be able to cite examples thereof, no? Von

The addict (not surprisingly) declined any offer of assistance for now. In extending the offer - acceptance of him as he is - was offered to him in the beginning, middle and end. Clearly we communicated that his refusal of assistance will not cause us to care less about him. He is an adult. He is valued in our community. We came to him quietly and discretely should he ever think he would like to know more about this one option. He has other options and we respect his right to choose another way. We assured him that we won't bring it up again - that is his decision. We just wanted him to be aware we cared enough to put our money where our mouth is - and we are patient enough to hold the offer until he decides it is the right thing to do. We thanked him for listening to our concerns. It was a calm, caring conversation. The mother was not made aware of the offer. All information was extended on a need to know basis to the five people involved and all took a vow of confidentiality. So the ball is in the addict's court. And we will continue as we always have. Incidentally, professional assistance options were also provided to mom. So the church is now allowing both parties to process their choices. I do appreciate the input provided and I will continue to monitor this thread for any additional suggestions. Thx again, von

ATWATER VITKI & MARK45 - right on both counts There really is nothing more to be done for the mother than what I am doing (prayer and listening) (and continuously suggesting the name of and numbers of professional people) (which are ignored.) Sometimes it just helps to bounce it off of someone else as the pain certainly looks deep and devastating when I am speaking with her. Atwater Vitki, I think you are definitely plowing in the right field with your assessment. The focus from church members is being drawn "to the mom" and the addict is a tiny bit - being vilified. I think I can neutralize the direction of the group dynamic, thanks to your heightening my awareness so that was very helpful. REVJACKP - I like your style and your approach. Good analogy re: the advertising parallel. I am going to step up my positivity and coach a couple of folks he is talking with to do the same - that was a solid lead of what we CAN and should do. Many thanks. Re: an update - I found a rehab program in Mississippi that will accept this guy..... IF.... he decides he wants help....and we found someone willing to pick up the tab for the rehab treatment. It is a residential lockdown program. It will get him away from the addict partner (again - gotta be his choice) but it is an option to offer him. In addition, upon his return, we have church members willing to hire him at a more than livable wage....and one ready to provide a decent apartment for him that won't bankrupt his earnings should he elect to take the rehab treatment. Actually it is a very, very nice apartment quite some distance from the travel patterns of the addict partner. I will join with a couple of his closest church contacts in making the offer of a new/better life and thanks to reading this before that meeting - I will also emphasize that he is valued even if he declines. The mother (again after reading this) might be better served with some gentle peer pressure (gentle over time) during the ladies circle chit chats and I have a couple of ringers in there that can lead the group that directions without much fanfare. We'll see what the mother and son choose for their future. It was VERY helpful to have some input from the FORUM. This place is a great resource. Sometimes you might even know the answer (but you forgot) (or you just need some validation it is the best answer along the way) Von

The Scouting program (girls and boys) is a social "clubbing" institution. The program RELIES on parents as volunteers to lead the children through a myriad of interactions (camping, crafts etc) in conjunction with an emphasis on character building (honesty, loyalty, teamwork). I don't believe it was intended initially to replace parents. But rather to offer a supplement to it since it has always relied on the men and women of the community to run the programs. I am not sure that it is as relevant today as it once was - perhaps it is - I am too far removed to judge that. I do know back in the 1920s and 1930s when the Scouting program provided direction to lots of children who's parents were wading through some hard times, long labor-intensive jobs. After WWI and through the Great Depression the organization provided direction for kids who might not have had two parents at home to guide them....perhaps. During the WWII era with so many men off to war and women working - the Scouting programs again provided adult leadership and fulfilled a kids natural need for clubbing and belonging as part of their development. I am reasonably sure it was never intended to undercut parents as the primary role model for kids. But sometimes in the history of a society, there are groups of children who are are in need of adult supervision for whatever reason. At times Scouts, Boys and Girls Clubs and the like have filled the void for lots of kids. von

As always (for more than a decade) the FORUM has some good, solid suggestions and I do appreciate them as this is an area of which I know very little. ATWATER VITKI ...thanks for the assist - where would I find episodes of INTERVENTION..... (sorry I live in a very rural area and we do not have television but the mother does and I would like to direct her to whichever place has the shows)......(is that a cable thing, Netflix, Amazon???) Would this distress her to see the full blown impact or would it be good to point her focus to be on the counselors to understand how to cope with the addict? Seeker, very good point I had not considered - the two addicts might (could) form a mutual support ...also ​had not considered that both parents would see the other's child as an enabler....good thing to keep in mind Mark45 - VERY good to hear from you - our path's keep crossing ....which is a good thing in my book Songster - your thoughts mirror my own...but it was nice to have the confirmation thereof Raincloud - my sympathies to you as it must be difficult for your family....I have plenty of oddballs in my family and more than a few alcoholics but I have never had to deal with a drug addict and this is all new territory for me - I appreciate your input and I will keep the prayer lines working on this situation emalpaiz - gentle one - thank you for the reminder.....I shall follow your advise and appreciate (always) your wisdom.... The mother seems to vacillate between fault finding with her parenting skills, resenting her ex-husband for not helping her raise the kid, hating the girlfriend "for getting the son hooked".....and being worried sick the next phone call will be from a jail or a rescue squad. There doesn't seem to be any room for calm in all that - she just swings from one emotional low to the next without much leveling off. There are not many options for professional help in this rural setting and I have so far not been inspirational enough to motivate her to go to a bigger city to get some help for her own self. She does not have a computer (she does have television reception) ...we don't have a library but I could go online and order a self help book or some literature for her if someone knows a useful resource (I went on line but I cannot tell which one of the things on there might be actually effective) - any ideas on that ...thx von

My apologies for the confusion in my wording. The mother and son are both members of my church but I am not related to either one of them..... Thanks for the input (and confirmation) of the situation. The question is more one of how to handle emotional churn which is quite an obstacle for the mother. The addict is not ready for help, I keep the door open but limit exposure. The mother cannot be rational - or detached and she is in considerable pain because of that. Somehow no words are offering comfort......even quiet support seems to be failing her. Ideas? von

Son is an addict. Mother worries about him. She has practiced tough love. He is over age 21. She stopped financially supporting him. Still she worries, frets, can't sleep and stews about what she can do. The son is also a member of your church. He has quit heroine several times. He is in a relationship with an addict. Eventually living with the addict he has access to heroine and starts using it again. You as the minister hear the hurt and despair from both members of your church. Recommendations, ideas, suggestions on how to best minister to both? Von

Moving too fast. Not physically but in my younger days that was true as well. Even though I am aware I jump to conclusions, make assumptions, etc - I often do not force myself to WAIT...think it thru more...question enough...... Too often because I can, I equate that with I must...or I should I know life is a marathon not a sprint but often, I fear I will miss an opportunity to I rush to absorb it and learn from it and I lose wisdom and perspective when I am hasty, I hurt feelings, I fail to fully understand. Learning to slow my actions and words down a bit has helped - I need to do so more. Von

By way of an update (and a continued thanks to the Forum) ...the adult child in question sent photos and a note to a concerned friend (not me) of the hospice patient. The "friend" in turn delivered the letter and photos to the person dying. At the patient's request, I read the brief note from the adult child. The adult child noted that they would like to have contact but respected that the parent did not want it. The photos were sent in a hope that the patient would see that love is available, and in hopes of offering comfort. It closed with the fact the adult child and extended family currently out of touch stands ready to come and render aid and comfort if contacted. The patient listened while I read the letter then asked to see it and did read the letter too. Then the patients asked for & looked at (studied actually) each of the photos; and totally refused any contact. Two days later; while I was there feeding the patient and watching a football game, the patient mentioned the grandchildren and looked rather wistful so I again offered to contact just the grandchildren if the patient would permit it. So far - the answer is still, "no" It seems an appropriate time to simply rely on hope and pray for all concerned. Von

An interesting topic emerged tonight in a discussion between myself, an RN, an EMT driver and a physician. All of us gathered to in one way or another support someone in a critical care situation. There was some joking going on as to who got the big bucks when you break down the number of hours really required to do the job and it made me assess what the cost is for ministers......not necessarily in dollars. When the conversation eventually (as the night wore on) got to a serious moment I found myself musing that the cost to be in an "on call" service oriented role - is not at all related to money but more a payment one makes at the price of owning your own time..... You sort of lose your own claim to time if you are "on call".... Doctors and ministers (cops, firefighters) - are never really off duty are they? What is the cost to you for fulfilling the role of minister (not that you are complaining about it - but more just noting you are aware of it.?) Or maybe it is of interest to note the toughest part of the job. I suspect it has nothing to do with others but rather with self? Von

As always, many times in the last ten years - I am most grateful to all Forum contributors as I have come home each night a bit weary...hospice work is not for sissies some days. I have stopped by my office to check your suggestions and weighed each one carefully. Again, I thank you for your genuine interest and assistance. I am guessing - as one never knows - that we have perhaps a week of time left to process this issue. I have gently probed (without judgement or nudging) the depth of the issue. The patient enjoys beer - perhaps too much, too often but certainly enjoys it is in there somewhere. The adult child objected to the destructive nature of over-indulgence. At some point an argument that was probably years in the making - occurred. As yet - the details are unknown regarding who said what to whom but it is likely we can write big chunks of that script for our own selves. It resulted in neither party contacting the other for years. Apparently just prior to this crisis becoming known the adult child did in fact, attempt to contact the parent. The content of that mission is unknown because the adult hung-up on the kid. ​That is the only additional information to surface since the first posting. My concern is at the moment less about a reconciliation and more about the patient finding some kind of peace. I am certainly not an expert in much of anything. Certainly not in reading the tea leaves of another's mind. But I suspect you can relate to the fact that there are ways and tones that tip you off that what is being said is not necessarily what someone means. The patient says that contact is a no no. The patient has effectively burned that bridge. I am not sure that the logic (justification) of all of that is working in tandem with the emotions of all of that. I have visited with the professional on the hospice staff and also asked two traditional ministers re: their take on this situation and it seems everyone can clearly see there are pros and cons to either direction. It sort of seems like feeling my way is the best option and making sure I don't make things worse as the best directive. So I keep the communications open and try and ask gently penetrating questions to the extent I am able to come up with them. Any additional insights would be appreciated. von

A hospice patient does not want a reconciliation with an adult child. They have not spoken in years. The adult child has no way of knowing where the patient is located, nor does the adult child know that the parent is dying....although rumors are reaching that adult child that the parent is sick. Because of those rumors the adult child is seeking verification of the parents whereabouts and asking questions about the parent's health for the first time in years. The friends surrounding said patient's bedside - think it is critical to reunite these two and "make peace". The patient remains adamant that they have no interest in reconnecting to the child and the patient wants to die in peace without the well-intended friends insisting on this "bridge to peace." You are the patient's minister. The adult child has become aware of that fact. Your primary role is to render comfort to the dying patient. Is there merit for the patient - to nudge a bit for the personal peace accord. Is it better to allow the dying person to go out "as they choose".... Does the adult child have any claim on contact? Does the adult child have any say in this matter? Does the adult child have any moral rights? If a dying person's wish is to be left alone - is that sacrosanct? Any ideas to share on this situation? Thanks, Von

goldenskyhook (Rev. Patrick Dieter) Welcome back! So happy you are back. I was ordained in 2003. Officially founded the church six months later with my first order of business - registering with the IRS as well as the Secretary of State. I chose to consult an accountant (who reviewed IRS regs quickly with me for a very nominal fee) and I also visited with an attorney (again a VERY nominal fee). I found ALL of the information on this Forum to be THE BEST resource for advise. MDTaylor and Dorian Gray especially were quite valuable during the set-up phase. The rules have changed however you certainly have the basics. Forming a board, figuring out your record keeping, being able to explain your doctrine and dogma, proving you have regularly scheduled spiritual events (handled in our case by church bulletins announcing and reporting on said events) .....having an IRS employer number (you might have difficulty opening a bank account without that) as banking regulations are pretty fussy on any DBA (doing business as) accounts now........probably most of the stuff you need to do has not changed that much. If you intend to SELL anything (like have a gift shop or on line donation situation) you will definitely want to get some outside advise. The IRS takes particular interest in retail commerce working through church locations. I have found - in nine years so far - we have had ZERO issue with the IRS. In fact, we have gone to them more than once and flat out said we didn't understand what we were suppose to do with this or that and they were VERY polite and pretty doggone helpful. They have never once - even remotely - been anything but a good resource to us. We are transparent with all money coming in and going out and we log every single penny. We log every thing donated to us (food, clothing, toys, paper, stamps) - anything - is logged and when it is used, shared, distributed or thrown away it is logged in detail. I think keeping good records to discuss intelligently and accurately what you are doing is the most important part of your new (for the second time) adventure. THE SINGLE BEST ADVISE I can offer is to read the postings on this Forum. I doubt we would be planning our 10th anniversary as a church without the wisdom we gained from the other people (both practicing ministers and ministers who are not currently practicing but who are resourceful and intelligent and willing to help). Again, you are most welcome. Von PS - somehow I launched the posting before I finished writing it so if it notes an edit - it was because I am technologically slow and have no idea how to insert a smiley face to indicate my laughing at my own boo boos and goofs.

One of the most frequent questions I am asked.... Who ordained you? What church ordained you? Are you really an ordained minister? I checked with the Secretary of State as to which churches could legally ordain people in this state. I discovered the Universal Life Church in California was both recognized and legal. I applied. They accepted my application and I was ordained by them. There are rarely an additional questions. TWICE only in ten years - someone asked about it being an "on line" or not-real ordination. Certainly you could view it that way. Then again, (insert smile here) you know there are some formally trained clergy who are not getting it too right so I am not sure that the formal schooling approach guarantees a perfect solution either, does it? I could then fall back on my College credentials to remove the doubt that I had some formal training - perhaps not from a seminary but something in a related field. Since it only came up twice in ten years - I suspect it is no more of an issue that the very same question put to any clergy and it is a fair question. Ya wanna know the person to whom you are entrusting some important exchanges appears to be a solid sort. Also twice I have had someone "sneak attack" or attempt to by revealing in group settings that I have "nothing more than an on line ordination as a credential"......and both times I quickly agreed with them. In fact loudly agreed with them and quickly point out that I have given interviews stating that - so it is no secret. I add that after years in business I didn't feel I needed to learn how to administrate running the paper work side of a church or manage the people. I already had college level courses in comparative religions. And didn't see much in standard seminaries that would be additionally helpful to me to set up a NEW kind of church. Free of some of the now meaningless rituals of long ago. At which point the subject bounced back to what we actually are doing and the spotlight was off of me and ULC. I guess being very up front about ULC helps both you and ULC If you are generally considered to be a stable person and you have no qualms about being open about your ULC ordination - most often no one will make much of it. When they do - it is a teachable moment. You CAN opt to go into the entire history of ULC OR....you CAN got into your own entire history and why ULC was the expedient means to an end for legality purposes. Either way - I note the VALUE of ULC in providing a vehicle by which many a good work happens, many a church is started and many a solid upright person can move forward with their calling - be it a calling from God or a tugging of the heart or a need to reach out and do more. Seems to work. Von

Pete, Thanks for your post - I learned a great deal from it. It did help widen my perspective. We can minister small scale without buildings, weddings, and funerals. Much of my work is done on a one-to-one basis. Like many I suspect in the ULC - we worked out of our living-room initially. We seek nothing from the government in much of our community outreach. Helping others does not involve changing paperwork in many instances. I think that is one of ULC's strong advantages. We are free to look around us and DO RIGHT to whatever extent we are able. Additionally, the credentials to DO RIGHT begin with being an example of living right. That is ultimately the credential most likely to garner attention and belief in our words. Which I suspect you do already. It is frustrating to want to do more (and be stymied by legal and financial issues) but each of us has the opportunity - stymied or not - to have an impact. Having read your posts - I am pretty sure you do a good job of being a ULC advocate by the nature of your life and the depth of your compassion. Therefore you are answering more questions than you ever heard asked. People have sometimes implied my ordination is not real. Not for long though. The measure of the validation lies within I suspect. You are in good shape from all I can see with any reasonable person you interact with..... Von