VonNoble

A hospice patient does not want a reconciliation with an adult child. They have not spoken in years. The adult child has no way of knowing where the patient is located, nor does the adult child know that the parent is dying....although rumors are reaching that adult child that the parent is sick. Because of those rumors the adult child is seeking verification of the parents whereabouts and asking questions about the parent's health for the first time in years. The friends surrounding said patient's bedside - think it is critical to reunite these two and "make peace". The patient remains adamant that they have no interest in reconnecting to the child and the patient wants to die in peace without the well-intended friends insisting on this "bridge to peace." You are the patient's minister. The adult child has become aware of that fact. Your primary role is to render comfort to the dying patient. Is there merit for the patient - to nudge a bit for the personal peace accord. Is it better to allow the dying person to go out "as they choose".... Does the adult child have any claim on contact? Does the adult child have any say in this matter? Does the adult child have any moral rights? If a dying person's wish is to be left alone - is that sacrosanct? Any ideas to share on this situation? Thanks, Von

goldenskyhook (Rev. Patrick Dieter) Welcome back! So happy you are back. I was ordained in 2003. Officially founded the church six months later with my first order of business - registering with the IRS as well as the Secretary of State. I chose to consult an accountant (who reviewed IRS regs quickly with me for a very nominal fee) and I also visited with an attorney (again a VERY nominal fee). I found ALL of the information on this Forum to be THE BEST resource for advise. MDTaylor and Dorian Gray especially were quite valuable during the set-up phase. The rules have changed however you certainly have the basics. Forming a board, figuring out your record keeping, being able to explain your doctrine and dogma, proving you have regularly scheduled spiritual events (handled in our case by church bulletins announcing and reporting on said events) .....having an IRS employer number (you might have difficulty opening a bank account without that) as banking regulations are pretty fussy on any DBA (doing business as) accounts now........probably most of the stuff you need to do has not changed that much. If you intend to SELL anything (like have a gift shop or on line donation situation) you will definitely want to get some outside advise. The IRS takes particular interest in retail commerce working through church locations. I have found - in nine years so far - we have had ZERO issue with the IRS. In fact, we have gone to them more than once and flat out said we didn't understand what we were suppose to do with this or that and they were VERY polite and pretty doggone helpful. They have never once - even remotely - been anything but a good resource to us. We are transparent with all money coming in and going out and we log every single penny. We log every thing donated to us (food, clothing, toys, paper, stamps) - anything - is logged and when it is used, shared, distributed or thrown away it is logged in detail. I think keeping good records to discuss intelligently and accurately what you are doing is the most important part of your new (for the second time) adventure. THE SINGLE BEST ADVISE I can offer is to read the postings on this Forum. I doubt we would be planning our 10th anniversary as a church without the wisdom we gained from the other people (both practicing ministers and ministers who are not currently practicing but who are resourceful and intelligent and willing to help). Again, you are most welcome. Von PS - somehow I launched the posting before I finished writing it so if it notes an edit - it was because I am technologically slow and have no idea how to insert a smiley face to indicate my laughing at my own boo boos and goofs.

One of the most frequent questions I am asked.... Who ordained you? What church ordained you? Are you really an ordained minister? I checked with the Secretary of State as to which churches could legally ordain people in this state. I discovered the Universal Life Church in California was both recognized and legal. I applied. They accepted my application and I was ordained by them. There are rarely an additional questions. TWICE only in ten years - someone asked about it being an "on line" or not-real ordination. Certainly you could view it that way. Then again, (insert smile here) you know there are some formally trained clergy who are not getting it too right so I am not sure that the formal schooling approach guarantees a perfect solution either, does it? I could then fall back on my College credentials to remove the doubt that I had some formal training - perhaps not from a seminary but something in a related field. Since it only came up twice in ten years - I suspect it is no more of an issue that the very same question put to any clergy and it is a fair question. Ya wanna know the person to whom you are entrusting some important exchanges appears to be a solid sort. Also twice I have had someone "sneak attack" or attempt to by revealing in group settings that I have "nothing more than an on line ordination as a credential"......and both times I quickly agreed with them. In fact loudly agreed with them and quickly point out that I have given interviews stating that - so it is no secret. I add that after years in business I didn't feel I needed to learn how to administrate running the paper work side of a church or manage the people. I already had college level courses in comparative religions. And didn't see much in standard seminaries that would be additionally helpful to me to set up a NEW kind of church. Free of some of the now meaningless rituals of long ago. At which point the subject bounced back to what we actually are doing and the spotlight was off of me and ULC. I guess being very up front about ULC helps both you and ULC If you are generally considered to be a stable person and you have no qualms about being open about your ULC ordination - most often no one will make much of it. When they do - it is a teachable moment. You CAN opt to go into the entire history of ULC OR....you CAN got into your own entire history and why ULC was the expedient means to an end for legality purposes. Either way - I note the VALUE of ULC in providing a vehicle by which many a good work happens, many a church is started and many a solid upright person can move forward with their calling - be it a calling from God or a tugging of the heart or a need to reach out and do more. Seems to work. Von

Pete, Thanks for your post - I learned a great deal from it. It did help widen my perspective. We can minister small scale without buildings, weddings, and funerals. Much of my work is done on a one-to-one basis. Like many I suspect in the ULC - we worked out of our living-room initially. We seek nothing from the government in much of our community outreach. Helping others does not involve changing paperwork in many instances. I think that is one of ULC's strong advantages. We are free to look around us and DO RIGHT to whatever extent we are able. Additionally, the credentials to DO RIGHT begin with being an example of living right. That is ultimately the credential most likely to garner attention and belief in our words. Which I suspect you do already. It is frustrating to want to do more (and be stymied by legal and financial issues) but each of us has the opportunity - stymied or not - to have an impact. Having read your posts - I am pretty sure you do a good job of being a ULC advocate by the nature of your life and the depth of your compassion. Therefore you are answering more questions than you ever heard asked. People have sometimes implied my ordination is not real. Not for long though. The measure of the validation lies within I suspect. You are in good shape from all I can see with any reasonable person you interact with..... Von

I am enjoying reading the shared experiences. Since I live in "the Deep South" ...deep in the "Bible Belt" I did have one comical incident. It didn't start out that way but it sure ended with thundering laughter. Someone with an agenda - apparently in an attempt to discredit me (or ULC) not sure which was the primary target - anyway - I was speaking (I had the microphone) when someone started shouting and the only thing that I heard out of all the commotion was a question hanging pregnant with promise in the air... WHAT BIBLE ARE YOU USING because you are painting with a very broad brush and I want to verify what you claim to know by checking my Bible. I would love to take credit for being quick-witted but I wasn't. The room was absolutely quiet. I paused. Looked over the gathering and said; I most commonly use the same one that Jesus used.... Not a sound. Then lots and lots and lots of laughter....even the heckler ended up grinning. So there is a one liner if you get a chance to use it. Sometimes the right things blups out without effort. When that doesn't happen - hopefully this thread will grow to be a resource. Von

Like many here, I suspect - I didn't know what exactly I would "do" with my ordination but that didn't keep me from applying for it. I had some vague notions about some day. When the first opportunity came to identify myself "as a minister" - I did so hesitantly as after all - even I didn't believe that a "legal" fine line made me into my notion of all that a "minister" should know or be able to do. Over the past ten years I have realized that many of the obstacles to "success" and acceptance were obstacles that were largely of my own making. I assumed when I should not have....I foisted projections that were not reality.....I feared responses that never came and I failed to give others the benefit of the doubt. Like everyone at some time or another. Even now when people ask (and they do ask) where I received my ordination, where I went to the seminary, what degrees I have, by who's authority do I "preach" - and the endless questions about denominational affiliation.....I realize they are MOST often nothing more than curiosity. As my vision has grown, as my wisdom has inched forward....I realize that people are naturally curious. It is not necessarily an attack. I do not need to drop to ninja defensive posture every time someone makes an inquiry. Often if I conduct my response openly - honestly .....I get a chance to explain fully and make a new friend. So...because this Forum has lots of lookers and frequent new arrivals who are unsure of the questions that are about to happen all around them....it seems a good time to review some of the most frequently asked questions we receive. And gather some really good responses (that are not retorts, debates or at all negative about anything or anyone. ) Anyone up for it? Von

As a "no" denominational church we are asked to provide a wide selection of musical hymns and songs (especially at funerals) There are two songs that are requested frequently for funerals ...How Great Thou Art ...and Amazing Grace..... We also have done spiritual retreats and we offer - again - depending on the group, a wide sampling of church music (and sometimes not at all church music) It is always good to invite the views of others to enrich our own. Which hymn (song) do you find to be the most spiritual moving (and if the artist makes the song - which artist(s) - are "the best" for that musical selection) You choice can be traditional (the most requested variety we have) but maybe something new and fresh is good for us to take a look at as well. Thanks Von

Dianna, I didn't hit the "quote" button on this one as my comment is directed at your entire message of both postings. Thank you. I have concluded very much the same thing - and did it via the same protocol. Bravo to you for both postings. I concur with your conclusions. Von

Odd the discussions that come up between ministers. In our area - the ministers of all faiths come together every few weeks for a minister's meeting. It gives us a chance to get to know one another - share resources and work jointly on community issues. Someone raised the topic of length of their worship service (two hours long) as being the "right" amount of time a worship service should last as it allows enough time for moving musical interludes (hymns) and allows him time to "fully develop" the message. His congregation, he claims, wants their money's worth and they don't want it to be shorter in length. In our church the service usually last about 40 or 45 minutes which includes three songs and announcements at both the beginning and end of the service (longest listening time to someone "just talking" at any one point is under 15 minutes)....and that works well for us.... Now I am curious - what is the "norm" for worship service in terms of time? How many hymns are "average"? How long would you consider idea if you were attending a worship service? Von

Hi Fawzo, Perhaps your point is indeed the reason. Interestingly enough - it seems there are many religions that have a "fear" of reading anything beyond the scope of their own (and they believe unique) text. As I recollect you have (as have others on this thread) read more than one sacred text....or parts of more than one. Do you find that perhaps that there is not quite as much originality in each as some believe? Particularly those who have only read one? For example, there are those who do not realize that there are overlaps between the Bible, Torah and Quran (Koran) for example. Over lap of characters and stories in the three documents. There are many faiths including ancient, tribal ones - of virgin births etc.........and overlaps regarding similar creation stories. The Book of Mormon has large tracts of the Bible embedded into it...and the Bible as you know - borrowed much of the old Testament from the Torah - then added a new "rest of the story" - via the New Testament You only can know this for yourself - if you read more than one. And your point re: science is well taken. Some faiths embrace it. Others fear it. Perhaps the fear of the devil (or weakness of faith) exists in the ranks of all religions? Von

On occasion I do dream in other languages. Once when I was living in Mexico - I was staying with a lovely Mexican family and had a very rare nightmare. I awakened the entire family with my enraged battle of whatever demon I was attempting to slay in my sleep...must have been a big one. They rushed in fearing for my safety - and flipped on the light - I woke up and found I was illiterate in all languages - which terrified me even more. NOTHING clicked. Not word or gesture for several seconds. When my brain finally did activate - the Spanish words finally started to tumble out and we all had a very good laugh. I never had such a moment - before or since. But for a few seconds I had the command of no language.....both a scary and funny happenstance. We refer to it as my complete and total literacy blackout. von

It is rather surprising to me that so many who choose to debate and argue over sacred text (any of them) have not READ the document in question. Fully. Or even half of it. Fewer still have read more than one and done their own comparison. What, if anything, does it say about you if you base your entire life choice and morality on a book you have never read? Of those who do read it - often they did not or do not trust their own ability to understand it and rely completely on others to explain the document to them. Initially, that may be necessary - maybe. But does it seem practical to forgo your own reason and ability to expand your knowledge base and never take ownership of the stories and messages for yourself? What, if anything does that reveal about you or the document or your originating teachers? It doesn't matter which sacred text we are discussing. Does it seem reasonable that a deity would issue a code than not provide each follower with the key to understand it? Just pondering all this.....thank you for any input. Von

I have been coming to this Forum (which I value highly) since 2003. I cannot recall ever seeing a single thread debating the merit of the overall message of Jesus. Sort of interesting to me that most the thoughts attributed to Christ are not much of an issue. Mostly the words seem to be fairly well regarded by all. So the majority of the debate between believers and slightly different believers.......between believers and nonbelievers......between the clergy and their congregations...between believers and the government.....between the message and the realities of application of that message lies elsewhere....not in the actual message. The greatest commandment (forsaking all other details) is; to love. If I as a non-Christian can respect the message as valid for all.... isn't it time at the start of this new year - to put away childish things as it were...and have unification that the vast majority of Christ-beleivers are no different than any other believers. They are trying to get it right. And like all of us - some have off days and some get confused and very few truly want to do anything more than walk their path with beauty? Is that an "amen" moment for all? Seems like it would be a good way to start the new year as an inclusive, respectful ULC Forum. There is so much wisdom here - what does it hurt to affirm all - especially the group I have noted over ten years to take a few undeserved lumps along the way. Von

Welcome to the FORUM family constantine 319, As you have already read - there is a community filled with great diversity here - and also great wisdom. People will snicker (a VERY few) when you mention ULC or reveal that your church affirmed your ordination with an on line notification. If I might - here are a couple of suggestions. As noted by an earlier poster - there IS an actual church building. This is not a fly-by-night operation. It isn't happening in a dark hallway in a basement with a bank of under-paid phone operators. It is a very real church. With a real office and real professional people processing paperwork the same as every other "real" church. This church does not REQUIRE that you attend a seminary, although if you feel you need to do that - there is an online seminary with real classes and a real schedule and a real state validated diploma. All the components of a real church exist. They simply do not impose a narrow doctrine. They do not impose an education requirement (by the way some big name mainstream churches operate exactly the same way they simply do not provide the convenience of doing so on line.) So when people mock you - it is very likely that they are showing their own ignorance of the facts in this situation. It is an opportunity to educate them if you choose to do that. As a new minister you might not be comfortable teaching the snickering types so it is fine if are uncomfortable saying something to them. An additional thing to consider is more than a few ULC ministers do also have church buildings and congregations and do have a physical presence in their community. There are people who get ordained on a lark or as a joke. That does not diminish the work of ULC at all. That is one person doing a silly thing. Maybe even a disrespectful thing. But one person acting foolishly outside the confines of appropriateness does not at al lessen the validity of your credential. Your credential as noted by many is legal in most jurisdictions without any problem or any sense by the legal community that is anything less or different than any other ordination. As you have read more than a few of us were ordained through this church because of the belief in doing what is right - (like you) - because of the legal protection or because of an inner yearning to try and be and do more. What does it mean to me? It means I took a stand publicly. I can't back off of that position easily now. I have opened myself up to scrutiny from those who have a propensity to judge, opened myself up to be used by those who have a tendency to take, opened myself up to serve even when I am too weary to want to serve and opened myself up to give even when I don't personally care for the individual asking for help. It does not make me better or more important than any other human being. NOT EVEN a little bit. I am exactly the same as every other human attempting to be decent and respectful. The only thing it means is that I wasn't afraid to go on record as such. I am willing to be judged accordingly. The decision to publicly state you ARE a minister doesn't end when the certification arrives. It is a decision you will repeat daily - with hundreds of chances to do what is right in very small but significant ways. ULC allows each person to be a better person in the most comfortable and supportive of environments. At a self-directed pace. It is quite unique in the world and quite wonderful. Welcome. Von

PIck and choose. Mix and match. Is knowing and not doing better or worse than doing and not knowing? Is it worse to notice the need and ignore it or provide the necessary assistance - but only if you someone ASKS you first When faced with a need knowing you have ability to render assistance would you tend towards careful consideration of what will happen to you first before you act or does that response fall far short of the example of the Good Samaritan who acted without hesitation believing if I don't/ who will? Is it more harmful to hit another with your fist or with your tongue? What is the difference between a miracle, Karma and good luck that remarkably beat the odds? Is it more desirable to have unquestioning faith, blind tolerance , or unconditional kindness? Von

Is evil the absence of good? Or is evil simply people and actions (hideous people and hideous actions) that I simply do not understand? Is the outcome of terrorizing situations always bad for the survivors? von

I have great respect for this position, Hyperreal. In fact, I believe it took some courage to post it in clear tones. I have not faced this nor would I begin to know what I would do. My father did however face it. He was in his late 80s......I live several states away. He had always lived his life prepared for death. He was a decorated Marine (heavily) from WWII, Korean Conflict and Vietnam. Front-line duty each time. Death did not hold any sway over him. Nor did the process of dying. From diagnosis to final breath it was 38 days. Prior to this, I had buried my mother and my best friend (my best friend when I was in my mid-thirties). Each taught me lessons about how to process death. My mother taught me how painful, slow and frustrating the process can be. For all concerned. My friend convinced me the medical folks are well intentioned by not really in control of much. And my dad taught me how to exiting with powerful strength if that is at all an option. He signed himself out of the hospital (of sound mind and then some)...he signed himself into a hospice facility...and when I left one night just after midnight - he called the staff to his room and he signed to do not feed orders. He removed the decision from the children. He planned the funeral service. And he called me to his beside without the others knowing (I flew in and out of the state without them knowing I had been there) - in order to hear everything he wanted to be said at the services. He tasked each of his children with management of a different part of the funeral. He gave each of us a message to deliver to the others when we were in the hearse riding to the cemetery. The eldest was designated to accept the flag once folded. And it was his express wish that not one of us "stand there blubbering - because that is not dignified and it is unnecessary".....we did as he requested. At least till we returned to the privacy of the limo. I think after watching him.....I can observe that he kept his daily routine as close to normal as he could physically muster. He offered polite conversation till he could not speak. He held our hand when we sang to him...he loved family sing alongs.... or when we read to him. On my last flight to see him - I arrived after three days of battling weather related problems keeping me from "making it in time".......and he had not spoken a word in two days.....My siblings had a car waiting at the airport and they whisked me straight away to the hospice facility. The room was that grim kind of quiet. I leaned over and called his name...and he opened his eyes.....and said in the faintest whisper - how was your flight (the siblings were stunned he talked!)...and I said fine...and he said; are your arms tired from flying? and he laughed. I haven't a clue if I would ever be able to do that. But if I could laugh and make others laugh - I think that would be a pretty great 30 days. Von

Thank you. One of the few times I was taken for an official anything. It might well have some of the old timers smiling as i am about the most techno-challenged person to ever land here - so many have had to walk me through (drag me to) the basics of computer operations. And have always done so patiently. So many times.....Edtrain, meredog, most recently Atwater, Dorian (a zillion times), Qryos, and of course Murph (from day one)...my ole buddy Mark45 .....It is nice to be able to have a a chance to catch up a bit. So much wisdom shared in this place. I do miss it when things get pressing elsewhere. I appreciate your kind words. NEVER had anything remotely close to that happen. How awful. I never heard of asking for a deposit either - but in light of that experience i can see why some would. Writing an original ceremony, personalized and within guidelines established by the bride an groom is VERY time consuming. That would be a major disappointment - and one I never realized was even possible short of them calling off the wedding. Ya learn lots here. Not always happy stuff - but real stuff, that's for sure. You make a valid point. Perhaps the perception hinges on the relationship of those involved, the tact of the ensuing conversation, and the mutual respect of all concerned. THAT was funny and I do appreciate your wit. I suspect, I'll be chuckling at that for awhile to come. Thanks. Von

Dark..........park night.....might Light..........fright? height.....bite Stark.....mark bright.....right Fray...day stay.........okay .....dark-lark v

I agree with you. Both that it was silly and that doesn't track as do-able with even a little effort to figure it out. When I "got to" have my lovely chat with the IRS...they said this type of thing happens all the time (incredible though it may seem.) BTW, kudos to the IRS in regards to assistance with lots and lots of questions. I have made numerous calls to their office and they have been exemplary in being helpful and friendly EACH time. They accept the fact I am not an expert by any means and I am calling to make things right or attempt to do so. In the example you listed, Dorian......they gave that very example to me over the phone and said someone DID try and deduct child care because the church ran the program. When our church was in the process of "filing" our papers - the very helpful person on the phone said; I cannot stress this to you enough....please avoid going into business on church grounds. There are numerous rule changes and pending laws that will effect that venture and if at all possible just don't conduct business on church grounds and for heavens sake don't sell anything there. It muddies the water considerably" It has been awhile since that conversation, but I heeded the message and have avoided anything happening for a profit on the church premises. I have no idea what legislation may occur but I did not mind that lady's advise. The accountant tells me we avoid a heap of paperwork keeping our books neat, clean, simple and open. Von

You are absolutely correct. More correctly stated - the morality comes from the honesty bit. If you are required, by law, to report something - and choose not to do so - there is a certain smack of dishonesty there, perhaps. Morally, honesty or lack there of becomes a related issue. Sort of like stopping at a stop sign at 3 AM with no one around. It is (as you noted) a legal issue..and s civil one.....is there is a twinge related to your integrity in all that. Are you obliged to adhere to rules which you accept by the very nature of your choosing to reside in an area that has such rules...is there an implied expectation that you agree to those terms? It seems like there might be. If there is - then choosing deliberately to circumvent them seems less moral than abiding by them or openly notifying authorities that you are not going to abide by them? Still your posting is absolutely correct (and as always) welcome. Interesting you would bring that up. I discovered one of the parents....of one of the couples I "married" TURNED IN a deduction for giving me a gift of cash (tucked in a card...and put on the windshield of my car of all places)....giving me the money - they presumed was the same as giving it to a church and thereby a valid tax deduction or so they thought. It is no surprise the IRS did not share their view and it was not an acceptable deduction. But their listing of "me" as the entity from which they were claiming a deduction - certainly drew attention to me. Nothing came of that moment in time....but that is I suspect one of several ways your accepting an honorarium might come to the attention of others. People talk. Thanks for joining in Dorian. You always add some wisdom. Von

It seems a high number of people who become ordained at ULC officiate at weddings (if they use the ordination for any purpose at all.) It also seems a fairly high number do a small number of weddings - ordinarily for someone they know. And it seems most do so without intent to make money. HOWEVER, any money you receive (no matter if you call it an honorarium or a fee) - is taxable as I understand it. Every wedding I have officiated since 2004 - any "gift" received has been in cash (I have never one time received a check) - which means reporting that money is really a matter of your personal integrity. So you this is a multiple choice thread....you an answer all questions or pick and choose. The FORUM is a good place to learn from those who are out there doing.....so whatcha doing? DO YOU REPORT THE MONEY YOU RECEIVE FOR YOUR SERVICES? (weddings, funerals....seminars, speaking fees) HAVE YOU RECEIVED ENOUGH THAT IT IMPACTED YOUR FINANCIALS? HAVE YOU BEEN AUDITED, QUESTIONED BECAUSE OF YOUR ORDINATION IN RELATION TO TAXES? HAVE YOU ESTABLISHED A WAY TO HANDLE FUNDS RECEIVED BECAUSE OF YOUR ORDINATION (separate checking account, consulted with an attorney or accountant)? SHOULD YOU? You may not have considered this aspect of dabbling with your ordination but in some cases it will take very few weddings to possibly have an impact on your financials. It is not unheard of to receive over $200 to officiate at a wedding. It is not unheard of to have the funeral director accept money on your behalf and give it to you AFTER the funeral and the family left. It is not unheard of to have an unexpected bit of money tucked into a thank you card. One time I was asked to speak at a retreat and at the retreat I stayed long enough to enjoy a meal with the group. Upon leaving, they handed me a wrapped package and told me it was a coffee cup - which it was - but inside the coffee cup there was just over $700 in cash - they had taken up a collection among the group without my knowing about it - stuffed it in a coffee cup and put it in a gift bag. I carried it home and didn't realize till the next day I had received the money. So figuring out what you are going to do should you receive money is fairly important, perhaps. Even if you do not intend to accept that money as part of your income - if you officiate at anything - you run that risk; it might be a good idea to check on what steps are necessary to handle the unexpected funds once received. It might (likely does) include a paper trail of receiving the money, redirecting it and recording your actions in accordance to standard business practices. If any one has experiences that relate to the thread and I didn't ask the exact right question - please be hereby officially encouraged to offer your wisdom and experience. Lots and lot of ULC ministers have come to rely on this FORUM to learn. Von

Thanks. I really didn't know which political box I fit in as that topic is not my forte. That was interesting. According to that - I am Centrist - Von

WELL NOW ....THAT was helpful ...very helpful - THANKS!!!!! Even I can manage that.....Your assist is much appreciated. Von

It seems to me that most things in life are best understood (at least by me) on a continuum. Therefore if I were to look at love it would be by degrees with extremes on either end. HATE....dislike intently.....dislike....sort of dislike} {sort of like.....like.....really like a great deal....infatuation.....lust......friendship.....love....obsession Now on that continuum you can substitute the words that work for you.....but that big gap in the middle.......that is the fulcrum and hinge of all that energy and emotion.....and it too is a force (to be overcome/welcomed)......so it actually love and hate are NOT opposites - they are the same emotion run through opposite filters. In reality it is the MIDDLE that is the opposite ground. HATE.................................INDIFFERENCE........................LOVE The opposite of hate is actually indifference The opposite of love is also indifference Indifference is the only NON-emotional response You can welcome the nothingness of indifference. You can work to struggle beyond it. If I were to transfer that to energy/motion/force it would play out to be Explosive.............neutral/non-reaction...............inert/dead or whatever analogy works for you....the vocabulary is not all that important. Understanding the mechanism might be..... .....In reality - in my view.......passion is less binding than love..........LOVE is less emotionally binding than friendship.....and loyal friendship trumps all. If you are exceptionally lucky/fortunate/blessed.........you get to meet up with someone who can move back and forth on the continuum at will....and cover several connecting dots simultaneously. Friend, love, counselor, playmate.....soulmate......it is rare. But it happens. [and with that ...I tip my hat to my much better half...] Von