VonNoble

Jonathan H.B. Lobl, You have noted several times that you are a work in progress AS ARE WE ALL. It is good to state your beliefs and understanding clearly and firmly. You demonstrate courage and I applaud that. To put a fine point on it (I am trying to be brief) - respecting that others do not see things as I do is not the same thing of agreeing with them. Perhaps all of us hide behind stuff. Scriptures are hardly the only "authority item" people hide behind. Perhaps each of us takes a turn living boldly. Perhaps there are moments that we have done all we can and there is just no satisfaction in our efforts. The good news is we live to do better (read that as do better rather than do battle) .....another day. Self worth demands we speak our truth. It does not demand others agree. When we disagree - how we disagree defines US (not them) Offering respect seems the best way forward to me. There are a great many people with whom I disagree. There are almost none that I do not respect. I often learn the most from those who do NOT agree with me. When I work to see their point - to understand what motivates their statements - rarely do I see uncaring dunderheads. Mostly there is a REASON they are saying what they are saying. If I work to "get" their reason - I can begin to appreciate the why of it all. It very often will NOT alter my point of view. But it improves my understanding of how to proceed in the discussion if the goal is for both of us to reach the middle of the bridge. We need not go any farther. Each of arriving at the middle is a victory for both of us. Thanks for hanging in there with us. I am glad you did and do. von

Certainly the only disagreement here is between our view, of God's protocol. (well in my case there is the issue of God's existence but I am setting that aside for this thread.) You have always afforded me respect as i do to you. Perhaps it is merely our own filter and experience in life guiding us to conclude as we do. There is no need for us to reach a consensus. Your beliefs keep you walking with God to the best of your ability. Mine keep me working to do and be better as well. To me it is all good. I understand I am not "forgiven" in your point of view. I am okay with that. I am also not saved. I am okay with that too. I respect you cared enough to make sure I was aware of the consequences. I "get" that is part of your duties as a Christian. I am not taking offense and appreciate you lived up to your calling. I hope you did not take offense either. It is my opinion that God (if there is one) would offer love in degrees we cannot imagine. God would expect us to do and care for one another no matter how limited our understanding. And that God would certainly want me to respect your views and allow you to live in accordance with your understanding. There is room to agree to disagree .....without being ugly. I fully believe that neither of us represents evil. We have that in common. Thanks for sharing things faithfully and honestly. von

Clever analogy. Did you ever see the poster where the railroad tracks were built from two directions and didn't quite match up. Sometimes the workers don't follow the blueprints. Still you make a good point. Your analogy works better for some religions rather than others. The religions that might dampen the analogy are not monotheistic however. So I guess you have a point re: the brick building. A point I rather enjoyed. von

I am not sure that it was necessarily intended that way. When I am sitting with tribal members in a tribe in South Dakota...I can see that they can tell the story of their people back more than seven generations. The oral traditions of their beliefs come forward in contemporary language. The speaker knows the audience and can emphasis parts of the story (or play down parts) pending on what the audience needs to hear TODAY that is relevant. The written and UNALTERABLE word does not allow flexibility. Specifically to the book can also be offered as a fable or a general guide. It can be the authority that needs a supplement occasionally as society evolves. The core beliefs might not shift much but that is not wherein lies the breeding ground of contention. Additionally, if you do not absorb the lessons through your own though and process you are destined to learn ONLY WHAT the teacher offers. I am not sure that is what the original writers intended. Perhaps they intended for each to read and absorb it on their own. They did not start out with written documents. ALL OF THEM started out with oral traditions. So the authority thing....may be an unintended by product? Or maybe I just don't know enough. Observations alone don't tell the whole story either. von i

It has been a point of curiosity to me for more than (50) years.... so a half century of observation on this point. Each religion that attaches "a holy book" as THE ANSWER (the one, true and ONLY answer) - ends up by followers being NOT being able to agree on the meaning, rules and adherence. That is JUST my observation. Catholics come in more than one version (Roman, Orthodox and other).....Jews have a range from ultra conservative to more "progressive" - as do Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus. Another big curiosity is when I ask someone schooling me if THEY read the book in question - RARELY have they. I mean it is VERY rare that they have read the book in question. That always puzzles me. If you haven't read it yourself and come to believe it on your own....then are you not relying on what someone taught you rather than what you KNOW to be true by working your way through it? Do the religions that branch off from using the holy reference book or guide book - fair better over time (such as those that rely on oral tradition instead of a text?) von

Thanks for the example. It did clarify some things for me in your position. However, on the converse side, the first wedding I performed for gay friends we had to travel to N.H. as it was still a rare occurrence in 2004. That couple had worked very hard to raise awareness of their situation. They donated money. Send information out to friends regularly. They paid subscriptions to "gay" magazines and sent it to straight friends. They worked quietly and non-violently. One of their most effective tools was inviting neighbors and friends to dinner to see how very normal and very boring they were. They also brought about the change with dignity and grace, no? von

How does that help them or you? Would they not have to RESPECT you or your opinion in order for your "telling them" to matter? Why would your opinion of them matter a bit? Unless of course they respected you. Doesn't that probably require that they sense you respect them? von

Finally! Thanks for your patience. I got it this time around. Agreed. von

Dan56, I respect your belief. I even share the sentiment at least as a first blush. However too, in my studying of Christianity over decades, I have often heard very good Christian people note that they are thankful that God does not treat them in accordance with what they deserve. Few of us deserve the riches and blessings bestowed on us. We all "sin" ....we all fall....we all realize that we did so much less than we should have on so many occasions. God is often more merciful than just - at least in my understanding of it. He often demonstrates mercy and forgiveness quickly. God chooses forgiveness - always. If we are to emulate those actions (and most major religions share that view) then do we not obliged to forgive first, to be the first to offer a hand up, turn the other cheek or whatever Scriptural reference is appropriate (thanks to any believers who can help me with that footnoting)... ARE WE not defined by our response in the face of those who error? Von

Nice one....I had a small postcard with that quote for many years.....very appropriate. Aren't these two positions, in part, mutually exclusive? I think you have, perhaps more succinctly, highlighted my muddling. Evil exists. Some offensive people are not necessarily evil. They are fearful, uneducated, drunk, or very much in need of attention, in need of a fix (drugs, power, whatever.) Without positioning ourselves as willing to understand them (read that as offering respect even when they are not acting as if they deserve it) - how do we ever determine which of the many (justifiable and not justifiable) motivations is in play? Racism can be learned. Hatred can be cultivated. Some evil is not carried out by the mastermind. Some of it is carried out by those who do not yet fully understand their options. Sometimes they do know their options but are completely ignorant of the ultimate outcome of those actions. Sometimes people in front of us are responding to lies, deceit, manipulation, fear mongering. Sometimes they are not as evil as their actions imply. They are just scared or stupid ....or scared stupid. Even when dealing WITH evil...how does responding in kind help me? Withholding communications doesn't seem like a likely win does it? It isn't always possible to remove oneself from or protect yourself from evil...sometimes you HAVE TO deal with it..... von

Agreed. It was not until I rounded the corner into my 40s that I realized I did not have to be accessible to everyone who reached out to me. CERTAINLY, retirement has only helped that choice. So I applaud you in that regard. The struggle comes when I am in situations where interaction is NOT optional (socially) (brief) ...everyone has been in a social setting with clumsy moments. Seated next to an intoxicated guest at a wedding reception, on an airplane at someone's home, in an elevator. We can avoid contributing or drawing attention to ourselves as much as possible but at times you are sort of thrown into the spotlight or the conversation and there you are. A person you would never choose to associate with is in your radar for the next few minutes. There are people who just rankle us. What I am curious about is not so much that we have to be false Nor do we have to hurtfully honest in every instance. There are social norms. There are quick exits. And then there is the other option. Maintaining some degree of respect at least outwardly. For many reasons it seems good to do so. I can't think of too many reasons not to do so. Your insight is appreciated. von

EXCELLENT

re: the notion that people deserve to feel a certain way is sort of weird.....YES....at one level that is absolutely true. However, along with that enters the notion of expectation. You arrive to every interaction with your bag of expectations as do they. At times people are clueless how they are perceived. The more clueless they are - sometimes the higher their expectation that they are correct, brilliant or on par with you . At which times YOUR VIEW might clearly not be aligned with that. They might not do a darn thing to make you respect them - or in fact fuel the fire to make it difficult to even be anywhere near their toxic self (if it goes extreme in your judgement) - still - where does your ability to rise above your comfort in the interaction - enter? If they KNOW they did not earn your respect, does it reveal as much about you as it does about them? You may be aware of their expectation that you will respect (or like them) ...they may not get at all that your feelings run contrary to that expectation.....OR....you may clearly signal to them that they "got it wrong"..... When interacting with someone I can offer respect because it is the proper response. I can withhold quietly with a good poker face. Or I can clearly signal they are NOT respected by me. The choice in reaction is mine. Which ever way I chose - I am holding the cards. I am also setting the stage for any future interaction. My reactions might not have to live up to their expectations. But probably my reactions should live up to mine. Which sometimes might allow another to save face, keep them in doubt, or allow them to remain blissfully ignorant of the cards I am holding. Sometimes von

....had to chuckle at that...yes, you are right the truth sometimes stink but remains unaltered... I am not sure that lacking respect is one and the same with faking respect. It could be...but sometimes not so. I can disagree without being disagreeable. I can withhold respect without losing civility. Also I can extend respect even when I KNOW the other person knows they are not entitled to it. It says something about me (it could be fakery) or it could go right back to being the first one to open the door to better next step....maybe...sometimes. Still your point is well made. von

Ha! As if ...(as if one could make my mind more clouded than I do my own self) So, am I to understand that everyone deserves it - even though possibly not automatically? They should earn it? Perhaps I didn't understand that when I read it. Then again maybe I did. So it goes with a muddled mind. My mother (if ever there was a saint it was my mom - FOR SURE) - she always said we are to give respect even when not earned because that person might need it most. Mom was rarely wrong. (According to her that would be corrected to NEVER wrong) but she had a sense of humor and would laugh when she said it. ) Just for fun - one time I was indignant as a grades-schooler and telling her that I had pulled a fast one one someone...and ended with : "I am not as dumb as I look!" My loving mother replied: You couldn't be !!! She chuckled for hours at her joke at my expense - it became one of her favorites to retell. Somehow when it was her telling it - I never minded and laughed right along with her. Thx for joining in ...I am still sorting all of this out in my mind. von

Would offering it - help one to cultivate it I wonder? You made an excellent point there! thx von

Mark 45, You got me thinking (as you so often do) (thank you) ....does respect (and even dignity) begin with our giving it to others.....or giving it to ourselves FIRST ? Now that you got me thinking about it I am wondering if our respect for others is somehow association with our respect of self? von

Labels. Perhaps that very issue is what drove a goodly number of us to join ULC. Even that causes confusion. Is the UNIVERSAL LIFE (some reference to God who ever was and every will be)......thereby making this church somehow tied to the notion of God? OR is UNIVERSAL LIFE a reference to the fact that we reincarnate and our impact upon mankind moves forward beyond death in some way? OR was it just a version of trying to come up with a no denominational concept at the time? Labels are such pesky devils. I suspect like many - I have toyed with several and never quite find an exact match up. The other problem for more than one of us - when I do find one that sort of fits we can't quite affix it. I seem to find (almost as quickly as I settle upon one) - I find all too quickly, a few other people sharing the label who are far afield to one side or the other - with the basic beliefs. They quickly put on and sport the label without a commitment to adhere to the basics (or ever for pity sake to understand the basics) Radical extremists seem to be on the bell shaped curve of every label so it makes it difficult to wanna join in. If you are guilty by association with the dunderheads you end up spending a bunch of valuable time explaining, apologizing or being frustrated by the least of your brothers. Time better spent doing good quietly. It is enjoyable to see the lengths to which creative writers do wordplay to invent proper labels. I am seeing that the labels we choose are diversifying into numbers akin to that of snowflakes and fingerprints. Not having a label is also problematic as it smacks of not winnowing down beliefs enough to find a common denominator with others. Being label-less too i s a bit faulty in presentation. Labels are a convenient starting point, a quick reference tool for us to smell out those who are alike and different from us. Unfortunately many people never get beyond them. Labels can become the yardstick by which others judge your hypocrisy. So they work to attract and repel people in about equal measure. Forgive the rambling..... von

Rev. Calli, Ah! working in prisons.....there is a whole different type of ministry! Thank you for your time invested. I found often the connect with those in prison was proposing to them that YOU GOTTA do good to feel good . ..do better to feel better ....at least at that place and time it seemed to provide motivation in that world. They had heard all the traditional stuff and rejected it so we had to enter with some sort of new information in order to reach in to them. Nothing was as strange to me as watching the group handling quiet meditation and growing because of what THEY came to understand about themselves. Hopefully both approaches helped them to believe they deserved respect. Doesn't everyone? Perhaps we will hear an example that would indicate that is not a universal requirement. I am always widening my view after reading postings from others. thx von

Hello Rev. Calli It is a very good thing you are here on the Forum. It seems we are ending up in close to the same location but we (as often we do) ....we take different paths to get there. Certainly I would agree that we should grow our talents and abilities and share them. I truly believe we are happiest when we are useful. WE GET far more than we give. If the formula you outlined works (with God as the impetus) ...I suspect it also works for those who just feel the benefit of doing it because we feel better our own selves......no external motivation required. I know you well enough to know you and i both believe people cultivating kindness (for whatever reason) makes for a better world. As usual we are on the same lake moving our canoes in the same direction and appreciating the view along the way. Good to see you again. von

Hello RevTom, I am not sure that the original posit is 100% in accord with my understanding but I get the drift of the thing (at least I hope I do ) Sort of seems like necessity is the mother of invention might apply to some discoveries, no? (maybe a bunch of them anyway) The reason I questioned our wanting to evolve into more is due to reading more than a few postings in this Forum where people are trying to devolve; into less. Less need. Less complication. Less dogma. Less rules. Less ego.......etc. YOU ARE CERTAINLY CORRECT in that as we expand we make discoveries, mostof which we find a way to put to use! Many for our betterment. Too, the flip side is ironically also true, maybe, by wanting less, needing less, using less and taking less we care much less about the future and enjoy the dickens out of this hour and this day. We start to master when is enough - enough. Very often we have it. BTW, kudos on including the quark. I am rather smitten with quarks. von

Is every human automatically entitled to respect? Must it be earned? How is respect lost? Is it ever lost? Is it a constant? An entitlement? Can we all agree we know it when we see it? Or is that yet one more intangible in society? Are there guidelines that clearly note respect? Dignity is the birthright of every human? Does one give up dignity? Is it taken by force? Does an individual claim dignity or does the outside world define that for each? Is it an internal manifestation generated or an outward cloak bestowed? Does every human posses the intangible of grace to give or award to others? Is offering grace the same as being gracious? Does every human have a reserve of grace? From whence does grace originate? Is it an invisible force or an outward behavior/ trait? Is it spiritual or behavioral? Amazing grace saves us or impinges us? Pick and choose - my mind is muddled this morning (well even more so than normal) von

Mark45, good to see you, friend. Good to see you have kept meditation as a critical part of your path. Thank you also, for the welcome back von RevTom, I commend you for coming to terms with depression. It is a most difficult condition to contend with and often misunderstood. i also commend you for urging those who recognize they need professional help to seek it. Very good advise. Lastly, congratulations of finding a path that supports your well self. edcrain's original posting: If You are depressed You are living in the past. If You are anxious You are living in the future. If You are at peace You are living in the present ...as you likely noted yourself ...it refers to little "d" depression ...the variety shared by all humans routinely (not big D.....Depression the very real and very difficult disease you mentioned) I suspect either way (routine common depression or major very real medical condition Depression) - either group can move forward by reflecting on the overall message of the posting. Again, my salute to you for finding a way to cope with Depression. I applaud you and hope you inspire others to find a way to cope with it. It is quite awful to deal with...and I have known a couple of family members to suffer horribly because of it. von

Before I forget I got the biggest grin reading Exalted Being...excellent. * I have never ever given that I did not receive in equal measure ....so, just for me, I guess I never view that as a sacrifice Not just giving money - but giving time, effort, or even of talent (what limited talents I have to give)...I always find I am enriched in equal or greater measure * again, it may be an oddity of my own point of view (heaven only knows my family has told me often enough that I am odd!) but it is not so much a betterment of me that might be the push - but the fact i see the worsening of my self when I don't do good - the growing smaller, less trustful, more controlling , quicker to judge, quicker to anger, growing arrogance etc. when I don't do good. I see your point (and the validity of it) but I guess it seems to filter down to do good (as you note cuz it might make my character better) but even more selfishly put.....it makes me hurt less I appreciate your insight...I'll think on it a bit more von

Doing good for goodness sake was what I used to hear as a child. Is that the real answer? OR is it more like? You do good because it hurts YOU when you don't von