Epic Debate Over God's Existance

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Never mind.  I started the thread.

 

 

Free Will. Do we have it?

By Jonathan H. B. Lobl, Just now in Philosophy & Theory

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Did you see my physics question on time?

 

 

 

 

That is what I was interested in discussing.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 minutes ago, Seeker said:

 

That is what I was interested in discussing.

 

 

The new thread is waiting.  Just click on the link.  

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

That may be the worst thing you ever said on this board.  A true death cult.        

 

Don't know where you got that impression? Equating eternal life to a death cult is a real stretch.

 

21 hours ago, cuchulain said:

So history literally changes to suit your beliefs...not egocentric at all.  Good luck with that b.s.

 

Don't know where you got that impression? No where did I write that history changes. My point was that the future is not predetermined.

 

Its clear that my conversation often goes over your heads, or your just intent on extrapolating things that were never written.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Don't know where you got that impression? Equating eternal life to a death cult is a real stretch.

 

 

Don't know where you got that impression? No where did I write that history changes. My point was that the future is not predetermined.

 

Its clear that my conversation often goes over your heads, or your just intent on extrapolating things that were never written.

 

 

 

 

Don't know where you got that impression? Equating eternal life to a death cult is a real stretch.

 

Killing babies, so that they can live forever, is a death cult.          

 

Its clear that my conversation often goes over your heads,

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Key]

21 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I'd prefer to start a new thread.

 

That works for me.  If you start a new thread, I will be happy to chat there.

 

 

 

Besides, I'm likely to leave a lengthy response

 

Small bites, please.  It can get lengthy, but not all at once.  If the opening statement is huge, it's hard to respond.

 

 

😎

 

 

 

 

 

Have you forgotten my inability to be as concise as you? 

[cuchulain]

On 7/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, Dan56 said:

 

I'm no Physicist, I simply believe God created time for us, and because of us. As to your hypotheses, the  book analogy applies to God, but I don't think the latter chapters of a book are set in stone since God being omnipotent as well as omniscient, has the capability of changing what may have been.

This is where you said God can change what may have been.

Remember now? It allows you to change the rules to suit your view.  

[Dan56]

11 hours ago, cuchulain said:

This is where you said God can change what may have been.

Remember now? It allows you to change the rules to suit your view.  

 

My point was that history is history, but that God has the capacity to change the future. I was responding to what Jonathan wrote; "Like the pages in a book.  We can turn the pages back to an earlier chapter.  We can turn the pages ahead to a later chapter.  We can't change the story". So if your in the middle of reading a book, you know the former chapters, but you still need to read the rest of the book to see what happens. That's what I meant by saying that God can change what hasn't happened yet, i.e; how the book ends.. Apparently, I didn't explain it very well, sorry about that.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

My point was that history is history, but that God has the capacity to change the future. I was responding to what Jonathan wrote; "Like the pages in a book.  We can turn the pages back to an earlier chapter.  We can turn the pages ahead to a later chapter.  We can't change the story". So if your in the middle of reading a book, you know the former chapters, but you still need to read the rest of the book to see what happens. That's what I meant by saying that God can change what hasn't happened yet, i.e; how the book ends.. Apparently, I didn't explain it very well, sorry about that.

 

 

Alright.  You are asserting that God can change the future.  Can God change the past?  Be careful how you answer.  If God can change the past, then the Fall can be undone.  If God can not change the past, then God is not all powerful.  You are the one who insisted on dragging God into this.  Not me.

 

Is the book complete, or are the future chapters full of blank pages?  In other words, does the future exist in the same way that the past exists?  That was the question.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Alright.  You are asserting that God can change the future.  Can God change the past?  Be careful how you answer.  If God can change the past, then the Fall can be undone.  If God can not change the past, then God is not all powerful.  You are the one who insisted on dragging God into this.  Not me.

 

Is the book complete, or are the future chapters full of blank pages?  In other words, does the future exist in the same way that the past exists?  That was the question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the fall of man were undone, then free will would be eliminated. "With God nothing shall be impossible" (Luke 1:37). In a sense, God did change the past when Christ blotted out the sins of believers. Sure, I believe that God, if He chose too, could erase everything that's ever happened. But of course He won't, because everything has had a divine purpose.

 

The future is not complete until time ends, which occurs at the second advent of Christ. So no, the book is not complete. Some things are known, but I believe with an interactive God, individual destinies are not predetermined, we are all works is progress. If our fate was known, then free will wouldn't matter.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

12 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

If the fall of man were undone, then free will would be eliminated. "With God nothing shall be impossible" (Luke 1:37). In a sense, God did change the past when Christ blotted out the sins of believers. Sure, I believe that God, if He chose too, could erase everything that's ever happened. But of course He won't, because everything has had a divine purpose.

 

The future is not complete until time ends, which occurs at the second advent of Christ. So no, the book is not complete. Some things are known, but I believe with an interactive God, individual destinies are not predetermined, we are all works is progress. If our fate was known, then free will wouldn't matter.

 

 

 

Uh-huh.          Then the Fall was supposed to happen?   

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

If the fall of man were undone, then free will would be eliminated. "With God nothing shall be impossible" (Luke 1:37). In a sense, God did change the past when Christ blotted out the sins of believers. Sure, I believe that God, if He chose too, could erase everything that's ever happened. But of course He won't, because everything has had a divine purpose.

 

The future is not complete until time ends, which occurs at the second advent of Christ. So no, the book is not complete. Some things are known, but I believe with an interactive God, individual destinies are not predetermined, we are all works is progress. If our fate was known, then free will wouldn't matter.

 

 

That is changing the subject.  Do we have free will?     

[Dan56]

17 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

That is changing the subject.  Do we have free will?     

 

I obviously believe we do.. Every time you make a decision your exercising free will. Its as simple as that. Even if a supreme being were to know what your every decision would be, it still wouldn't negate the fact that you have the freedom to make your own independent choices.

[RevBogovac]

4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I obviously believe we do.. Every time you make a decision your exercising free will. Its as simple as that. Even if a supreme being were to know what your every decision would be, it still wouldn't negate the fact that you have the freedom to make your own independent choices.

 

You do understand you're contradicting yourself...? If that supreme being already knows what you're going to do, you actually do not have free wil... it is all predestined then.

 

[Dan56]

18 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

You do understand you're contradicting yourself...? If that supreme being already knows what you're going to do, you actually do not have free wil... it is all predestined then.

 

 

If I asked my kid if she wanted some ice cream, I know that she would answer that question with a resounding "yes".. The fact that I know what her response would be, in no way negates her choice. It isn't a matter of predestination, God knowing how we will respond doesn't equate to God forcing or predetermining our choices. Its like asking an alcoholic if they'd like a drink, the nature and character of a drunk makes their response to the offer very predictable.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

If I asked my kid if she wanted some ice cream, I know that she would answer that question with a resounding "yes".. The fact that I know what her response would be, in no way negates her choice. It isn't a matter of predestination, God knowing how we will respond doesn't equate to God forcing or predetermining our choices. Its like asking an alcoholic if they'd like a drink, the nature and character of a drunk makes their response to the offer very predictable.

 

 

With that same reasoning, God the parent, would have predicted how Adam and Eve would react to the forbidden fruit.

 

Would you leave the ice cream for your daughter to find, then punish her forever when she was tempted?  

 

Would you leave the bottle for the alcoholic to find?  Then punish him forever?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

If I asked my kid if she wanted some ice cream, I know that she would answer that question with a resounding "yes".. The fact that I know what her response would be, in no way negates her choice. It isn't a matter of predestination, God knowing how we will respond doesn't equate to God forcing or predetermining our choices. Its like asking an alcoholic if they'd like a drink, the nature and character of a drunk makes their response to the offer very predictable.

It is with God.  Choice is determined by environmental factors and biology.  God created all the factors involved and set up how they work.  It's more like playing a game of cards where he designed the rules the cards and determined who gets what cards in advance.  There is no chance involved. So there can only be very specific responses.  

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Would you leave the ice cream for your daughter to find, then punish her forever when she was tempted?  

 

She knew the ice cream was in the refrigerator, but had the self-discipline not to indulge without permission. Obedience to God works the same way.

 

16 hours ago, cuchulain said:

It is with God.  Choice is determined by environmental factors and biology. 

 

There's a spiritual factor that ought to influence our choices too. There is a 'chance' because decisions can go either way. I'm sure Abraham didn't want to sacrifice Isaac, but he was willing because God commanded it to test his faith. I'm sure Jesus was hungry when he fasted in the wilderness for 40 days, but he overcame his environmental and biological needs and brought them under subjection to his spirit. That's what separates us from the animals. i.e; I want this, but God says "no', so I will obey my God and not be a slave to sin. Sometimes we deny ourselves in order to please our God.

[cuchulain]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

She knew the ice cream was in the refrigerator, but had the self-discipline not to indulge without permission. Obedience to God works the same way.

 

 

There's a spiritual factor that ought to influence our choices too. There is a 'chance' because decisions can go either way. I'm sure Abraham didn't want to sacrifice Isaac, but he was willing because God commanded it to test his faith. I'm sure Jesus was hungry when he fasted in the wilderness for 40 days, but he overcame his environmental and biological needs and brought them under subjection to his spirit. That's what separates us from the animals. i.e; I want this, but God says "no', so I will obey my God and not be a slave to sin. Sometimes we deny ourselves in order to please our God.

The analogy holds.  Because if God created everything he also created this spiritual factor you speak of and it operates on rules he created and he knows how you will choose in advance.  Liking or not liking a choice you don't have is irrelevant to freewill.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

She knew the ice cream was in the refrigerator, but had the self-discipline not to indulge without permission. Obedience to God works the same way.

 

 

There's a spiritual factor that ought to influence our choices too. There is a 'chance' because decisions can go either way. I'm sure Abraham didn't want to sacrifice Isaac, but he was willing because God commanded it to test his faith. I'm sure Jesus was hungry when he fasted in the wilderness for 40 days, but he overcame his environmental and biological needs and brought them under subjection to his spirit. That's what separates us from the animals. i.e; I want this, but God says "no', so I will obey my God and not be a slave to sin. Sometimes we deny ourselves in order to please our God.

 

 

And the alcoholic?  A person who has damaged or weak impulse control?  Would you forbid him to take a drink -- leave a bottle for him to find -- then punish him forever?  You understand his weakness.  You know he will fail the obedience test.  But it's worse.  Allow someone with evil intent to tell him how wonderful the bottle is.  It's the good stuff.  It will make him happy.  Would you set him up for failure -- then punish him for ever?

 

 

In the analogy, I stress poor impulse control.  Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve did not yet understand the idea of Good and Evil.  That came after.

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl