Is the death penalty morally right?

[Pete]

I have heard some poor countries have the death sentence because they cannot afford the prisons, but we are talking the US and UK here. The death sentence is not needed. I personally am against killing for killing because given the wrong circumstances everyone is capable of killing. I have not done because I have not met those circumstances and I am glad of that. I also don't like the idea of killing innocent people and those rehabatable back into society. That to me is not justice. Prisons are there to safe guard the public, prevent further crime, punish and rehabilitate. The death sentence is for me no less guilty in society than the murder. They are just killing out of malice and convenience and is just as bad a deed as murder. (Imo)

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

I know this is the monotheist section and Dan can speak about his faith here but a problem I get is qoutes like archeology does support the bible. The fact that a place may of existed does not prove anything happened there. Secondly there are loads of fundamental so called archeologists roaming Isreal and claiming all sorts. It's like they find a foot print in the sand and declare it as proof Jesus walked there. It is not scientific research. It's just trying to support their own beliefs. That to me is not archeology and it's just fantasy.  Another qoute is history does not contradict the bible. History cannot even prove Jesus existed so let's not say history supports the bible. It doesn't. 

Then there is the justification of every heinous deed in the bible as being God's indignation against sin. For me no God who supports torture, slavery, stoning and burning people is worthy of worship. That may of convinced ancient man but it has no place in modern society.  

 

 

I used to enjoy the Planet of the Apes movies.  It was fun picking out the landmarks from New York City.  The Statue of Liberty  -- old posters in the subway stations -- Grand Central Station.......

 

The Ghostbusters movies had scenes in New York City.  So did the Men in Black.  So did Spider Man.  Batman roams Gotham.  A nickname for New York.

 

It's all fantasy and fiction.  Nobody was confused.  Move the action to the Middle East -- and watch the lines between reality and fantasy blur.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 2/23/2020 at 9:33 AM, damnthing said:

I think 'religion' here is a very thin slice. You read my viewpoint  and declared it void because you don't like my tone.

 

As for 'senseless to denigrate a belief...', well as I see it, your particular viewpoint IS a problem. You just quote one line of dialogue after another and essentially spout an opinion that belongs to others. You don't have an opinion other than what 'preachers' have told you to have.

 

Interesting too that you have somehow come to the conclusion that I'm a pacifist. I served out country, have had a CCW for over 30 years, practiced regularly and would have easily used it in defense of myself, family, even strangers. So see you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.

 

As for 'tapping out', well that's your choice and probably for the best as you only spout dialogue to support your holier-than-thou position.

 

I especially like your closing paragraph where you get to put in all those nice, thinly veiled insults (so much for being nice here, huh?).  The part where you accuse me (or Pete?) of showering killers with kindness, I hadn't picked up on that but I'm sure it comes across that way to you because you've made it clear you believe in killing but, didn't your jesus teach the opposite? I kinda thought xtianity was about forgiveness, loving one another, etc etc and let the judging and sentencing up to god? Or do you subscribe to a more...bloodthirsty and revenge seeking god? And you also see to only be in favor of retribution rather than forgiveness so I guess that makes you more of a jewish vengeful god rather than a loving and compassionate jesus.  god complex much?

 

And finally, the jab about killing a baby two minutes before birth? That is where you end up, at the most extreme, most illogical, most....egregious example of who you are and what you believe, as we all know,  women will just randomly decide to kill their baby just before it crowns. The fact that you would say that suggests, along with all your other issues, that misogyny is big on your list. Your comment is a perfect summation of why you and people like you are so troublesome and disturbed. Your 'religion' tends to fill you with hate and that comes from, not your GHGttG book but from the people that taught you. Hate begets hate and you clearly seem like someone who doesn't, can't and was never loved (at least in a good way) and for that...well maybe you'll do better next incarnation (hopefully in a higher life-form that you are presently)

 

 

 

You must have noticed.  Dan "denigrates" every belief, religion, philosophy and opinion that he doesn't share.  You still care what Dan says.  In time, you won't.

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I have heard some poor countries have the death sentence because they cannot afford the prisons, but we are talking the US and UK here. The death sentence is not needed. I personally am against killing for killing because given the wrong circumstances everyone is capable of killing. I have not done because I have not met those circumstances and I am glad of that. I also don't like the idea of killing innocent people and those rehabatable back into society. That to me is not justice. Prisons are there to safe guard the public, prevent further crime, punish and rehabilitate. The death sentence is for me no less guilty in society than the murder. They are just killing out of malice and convenience and is just as bad a deed as murder. (Imo)

 

America has for profit prisons.  People who should be released on parole, are kept imprisoned, due to contractual obligation.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, damnthing said:

The problem is, it turned into him making a fatuous comment about 2 minutes before birth abortions, referring to all who opposed his opinion as pacifists who would kiss murders. That's not exactly quoting the GHG, it is one person's arrogance that strongly suggests he knows the mind of god and, I could be wrong here but doesn't the GHG somewhere state that no man knows the mind of god?

 

As for the death sentence, without even addressing the issue of whether it's or morally right or not, the strongest objection (and the only one I think that is really needed) is the very real risk of an innocent person being put to death. And I'm not talking about someone who didn't deserve the sentence, who had - according to sentencing guidelines - mitigating circumstances. I am talking about the totally innocent person, falsely charged, arrested and convicted, who was in no way involved in the crime but has been found guilty for any number of reasons; lack of, or manufactured, or constructed evidence, prosecutorial malfeasance, defense malfeasance, etc.

 

Near as I can find about .04% of prisoners given the death sentence are innocent. Now I know that some people will see that as a very small (and perhaps to them acceptable) number of people  but it works out to 1 in every 25 prisoners sentenced to death is innocent. For every 100 executions, 4 innocent people die. I don't see how anyone, of any religious stripe, could ever find that acceptable. Especially one who wholeheartedly opposed abortion as the murder of innocents. No one who opposes the later could possibly be in favor of the former, it would boggle the mind to think anyone could be both that blind and that hateful.

 

Yes.  Keep reading Dan's comments.     

 

 

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

Giving a lot with this, hypothetically if the punishment were just...it is still morally wrong.  It is imposed by a fallible and often corrupt system, regardless of where you live.  If it is possible that the convicted did NOT commit the crime, then to apply death to the individual is reprehensible.

I view the punishment of death as unjust because the act of killing, even lawfully, has the potential to damage the do-er, and the families and lives that interact all around.

And no, dan.  Being anti death pen doesnt equal being anti punishment.  There really are other punishments.

[Key]

My two cents on this might not actually be worth that much to some folks, but I'll put it in just to stir some more thought into the mix.

I'm fairly conflicted on the death penalty. On one hand, the dispensary of justice for it is flawed, as evidence of possible innocents being wrongly convicted. On the other, why should a serial/mass murderer be allowed to live much longer than his/her victims, even if in prison?

If one answer to the latter is, "to reflect on his/her crimes and discover remorse", than more often than not that would be a bet no gambler would be willing to take. It would be enough for them to be alive, and some actually might enjoy remembering their acts.

Any criteria that may be established can be viewed as made with bias, no matter what it is. How can that be overcome in the interest of fairness and justice for all?

The issue is a deep quagmire of muck, even before the issue of religious conviction is factored in.

I only know that on a personal level, if a person kills a member of my family, and I know for certain who did it, I'd want them dead, too.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Key said:

My two cents on this might not actually be worth that much to some folks, but I'll put it in just to stir some more thought into the mix.

I'm fairly conflicted on the death penalty. On one hand, the dispensary of justice for it is flawed, as evidence of possible innocents being wrongly convicted. On the other, why should a serial/mass murderer be allowed to live much longer than his/her victims, even if in prison?

If one answer to the latter is, "to reflect on his/her crimes and discover remorse", than more often than not that would be a bet no gambler would be willing to take. It would be enough for them to be alive, and some actually might enjoy remembering their acts.

Any criteria that may be established can be viewed as made with bias, no matter what it is. How can that be overcome in the interest of fairness and justice for all?

The issue is a deep quagmire of muck, even before the issue of religious conviction is factored in.

I only know that on a personal level, if a person kills a member of my family, and I know for certain who did it, I'd want them dead, too.

 

 

There is an old curse, which I think applies here.  "Don't die.  Suffer."  Death is the end of torment.  A lingering life is not always mercy.

 

 

[Pete]

I have thought long and hard on this. Having seen people go through the rehabilitation process and knowing what a horrible world it is for some people I would not want to see the death penalty for mine or my families killing. Hell it would hurt, but I still would not want it. 

I believe prison does work and for some its the only consistent family they have ever known. Although I believe in the eventual rehabilitation even I recognise that there are some who will always be a danger to the public or permanently disturbed and for them life in prison is the only solution.I don't believe killing for killing solves anything. If it was the US, China, and Russia would be the most safest in respect to murder in the world but they are not. China kills so often and for petty crimes but it still has criminals and murders.

[Key]

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

There is an old curse, which I think applies here.  "Don't die.  Suffer."  Death is the end of torment.  A lingering life is not always mercy.

 

 

Just as the question of the death penalty, here, too, depends on the perspective. Life imprisonment affords them the ability to breathe air that they denied their victims, which in turn may anguish and torment the families of those victims knowing this.

Also, these predators are not being made to cry and beg for their lives as they may have done their prey.

Not saying prison is like resort living, but it isn't always the torture made out to be in movies.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Key

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Key said:

Just as the question of the death penalty, here, too, depends on the perspective. Life imprisonment affords them the ability to breathe air that they denied their victims, which in turn may anguish and torment the families of those victims knowing this.

Also, these predators are not being made to cry and beg for their lives as they may have done their prey.

Not saying prison is like resort living, but it isn't always the torture made out to be in movies.

Yet, they know every day will be the same as the next with no change for years and their life is ticking by. Even when the sentence is over there is no immediate release. When we used to rehabilitate it was said it was a privilege and not a right and if you hack up then you go back. Even when they are out then it is on license in the UK. That means any infringement with the law and your back inside. It is a life of mediocrity rather than luxury.  I have seen petty conflict over the most stupid of things. It kills the boredom.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Yet, they know every day will be the same as the next with no change for years and their life is ticking by. Even when the sentence is over there is no immediate release. When we used to rehabilitate it was said it was a privilege and not a right and if you hack up then you go back. Even when they are out then it is on license in the UK. That means any infringement with the law and your back inside. It is a life of mediocrity rather than luxury.  I have seen petty conflict over the most stupid of things. It kills the boredom.

 

 

I think it is true, that life in prison is better than being dead.  We are back to the starting point.  Do we want the State killing people?  Even when we think that they "have it coming?"

 

The world is not yet perfect.  We must cope as well as we can.

 

 

 

[Key]

17 hours ago, Pete said:

Yet, they know every day will be the same as the next with no change for years and their life is ticking by. Even when the sentence is over there is no immediate release. When we used to rehabilitate it was said it was a privilege and not a right and if you hack up then you go back. Even when they are out then it is on license in the UK. That means any infringement with the law and your back inside. It is a life of mediocrity rather than luxury.  I have seen petty conflict over the most stupid of things. It kills the boredom.

As mundane as it may seem, it still affords them a form of comfort. They know where they have a bed every night, and have meals made for them everyday. There are no bills to pay. No dependents to support. Yeah, that sounds like a real need for rehabilitation. Mediocre or not, they are not truly suffering, or even made to see a need for remorse. Some become institutionalized, which makes them not able to convert to life outside of prison. Still, they have a better life than they afforded their victims.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 minutes ago, Key said:

As mundane as it may seem, it still affords them a form of comfort. They know where they have a bed every night, and have meals made for them everyday. There are no bills to pay. No dependents to support. Yeah, that sounds like a real need for rehabilitation. Mediocre or not, they are not truly suffering, or even made to see a need for remorse. Some become institutionalized, which makes them not able to convert to life outside of prison. Still, they have a better life than they afforded their victims.

 

 

I have two different responses.

• First, if life in prison were that wonderful -- I think a lot more people would opt for it.
• Second, I expect my government to have higher standards of conduct, than criminals.

 

 

[Pete]

The thing about prisons is that they are grubby places with no privacy. They force lots of people of temperament in a small place. You have nothing not owned by the prison and no right to make any decisions for yourself. You cannot even turn a light on without some guard turning it on for you. You cannot walk anywhere outside your area unless given permission to.You are stripped of everything that gives you a personal identity.  Even relatives have to ask permission to visit and then for only short periods. They are scary places full of conflict and every one irritating each other. Bullying is rife and there is always the potential for violence over the most petty of conflict. There is no privacy when washing or using the loo. If you visit one you get the feeling of claustrophobia.  They are not nice places.

[RevBogovac]

 

[Key]

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I have two different responses.

• First, if life in prison were that wonderful -- I think a lot more people would opt for it.
• Second, I expect my government to have higher standards of conduct, than criminals.

 

 

First, I never said prison was wonderful. And compared with being put to death, yes, more people do cherish life more. (Their own, that is.)

Second, I agree, but many times it doesn't.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Key

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

 

If these are the prisons that people don't want to live in -- the rest of society must be a great place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

4 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

If these are the prisons that people don't want to live in -- the rest of society must be a great place.

 

 

 

“A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

18 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

“A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

 

 

 

Yes.  A self evident truth.