Is the death penalty morally right?

[Pete]

I have met Christians who believe in the death penalty and others who feel in an advanced civil society it is morally wrong. I am asking all viewpoints.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

43 minutes ago, Pete said:

I have met Christians who believe in the death penalty and others who feel in an advanced civil society it is morally wrong. I am asking all viewpoints.

 

 

 

In the majority of instances, the use of the death penalty is abhorrent.  It is morally repugnant and is usually about revenge instead of justice.  The legal safeguards, against misuse of the death penalty, are inadequate.  Implementation is a nightmare of botched, incompetent executions.

 

In addition, there are so many instances, where the death penalty, is outright crimes committed by the State.

 

In China, not being loyal to the State, gets the death penalty.  This includes belonging to the wrong religion.  Or lacking fervor, in praise and adoration, of the President.  China is renowned as a source of Human organs for transplant.  Many of the "donors" are political prisoners.

 

In Saudi Arabia, there are various ways to earn the death penalty.  Being a Homosexual.  Being an Atheist.  Being an apostate from Islam.  Being accused of blasphemy.  Being a woman who is raped -- then accused of adultery. 

 

A legal death penalty is too easily abused.

 

There are a few, rare instances, where the death penalty makes sense.  They are few and far between.  On balance, even these are generally not a good idea.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

Yes, I concur with Jonathan on a lot of points. Basically, as I always put it:

 

1. people make mistakes, judges/states too and the death penalty is a hard thing to "correct";

2. it is very impractical because if you want to do it "right" you have tu build in so many safeguards it's simply cheaper to give a life sentence;

3. it has nothing to do with justice/rehabilitation, actually... once you have put the person to death he couldn't care less (any more);

4. the few cases it actually does make sense are so rare it does not provide justification for the vast majority of cases (1 through 3).

 

A more interesting point in my humble opinion is a "voluntary death penalty". In case: a Belgian prisoner for life had petitioned a transfer to a Dutch prison because in the Netherlands there is a law that provides for euthanasia for people who have prolonged, inhumane suffering without perspective on getting better. He wanted to argue that a life prison sentence is exactly that and he demanded the right to end his own life in a humane way...

[Pete]

In the states the sentences look much longer than the UK. I don't know why that is. Life in the UK is about 30years and you may get out early on licence for good behaviour and leave by the home office.  The later safe guard is about those who are deemed still a risk. Multiple murderers may never get out. Yet, the states you may get 20 years and then a death sentence   I am not saying the UK is perfect, it ain't. But it seems more severe or have I got that wrong. 

I have met people who went to prison for 15 years living a normal life and I don't believe they would do it again. Life is hard and for some particularly hard. I believe in the second chance.

[Dan56]

No surprise, I'm all for the death penalty, a life for a life is fair and just.. But only in the case of premeditated 1st degree murder. I don't believe a killer should get a second chance, after-all, his victim doesn't have one.

[Pete]

17 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

No surprise, I'm all for the death penalty, a life for a life is fair and just.. But only in the case of premeditated 1st degree murder. I don't believe a killer should get a second chance, after-all, his victim doesn't have one.

I am a little surprised as god  did not order the death of Cain when he slew Abel and yet you do. Was not that also premeditated. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

No surprise, I'm all for the death penalty, a life for a life is fair and just.. But only in the case of premeditated 1st degree murder. I don't believe a killer should get a second chance, after-all, his victim doesn't have one.

 

None at all.  I was expecting it.     

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I am a little surprised as god  did not order the death of Cain when he slew Abel and yet you do. Was not that also premeditated. 

 

 

 

Yes.  Good point.

 

 

Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

13 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Yes, I concur with Jonathan on a lot of points. Basically, as I always put it:

 

1. people make mistakes, judges/states too and the death penalty is a hard thing to "correct";

2. it is very impractical because if you want to do it "right" you have tu build in so many safeguards it's simply cheaper to give a life sentence;

3. it has nothing to do with justice/rehabilitation, actually... once you have put the person to death he couldn't care less (any more);

4. the few cases it actually does make sense are so rare it does not provide justification for the vast majority of cases (1 through 3).

 

A more interesting point in my humble opinion is a "voluntary death penalty". In case: a Belgian prisoner for life had petitioned a transfer to a Dutch prison because in the Netherlands there is a law that provides for euthanasia for people who have prolonged, inhumane suffering without perspective on getting better. He wanted to argue that a life prison sentence is exactly that and he demanded the right to end his own life in a humane way...

 

 

We are now discussing death as a goal.

 

There is also the Islamist terrorist, who wants a glorious death for the faith.  He thinks it will get him entry into Paradise.  We should not help him get this.  He does not want life in a cell.  That is what he should get.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mark 45]

in"escape from new york",when you were being sentenced,you had one of 2 options:a.permanent jail time in new york,with no chance to ever return,and b.suicide(your choice how).there was a third option:trying to escape,in which case you were blown out of the water.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 minutes ago, mark 45 said:

in"escape from new york",when you were being sentenced,you had one of 2 options:a.permanent jail time in new york,with no chance to ever return,and b.suicide(your choice how).there was a third option:trying to escape,in which case you were blown out of the water.

 

 

Clearly, John Carpenter never priced Manhattan apartments.    😜   

 

 

 

[Dan56]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

Yes.  Good point.

 

 

Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

 

Personal vengeance is negated in place of the law,  “But if anyone hates his neighbor, lies in wait for him, rises against him and strikes him mortally, so that he dies, and he flees to one of these cities, then the elders of his city shall send and bring him from there, and deliver him over to the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Your eye shall not pity him, but you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with you" (Deuteronomy 19: 11-13).

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 minute ago, Dan56 said:

 

Personal vengeance is negated in place of the law,  “But if anyone hates his neighbor, lies in wait for him, rises against him and strikes him mortally, so that he dies, and he flees to one of these cities, then the elders of his city shall send and bring him from there, and deliver him over to the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Your eye shall not pity him, but you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with you" (Deuteronomy 19: 11-13).

 

 

How strange.  God can't do his own killing.  He needs us.     

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 2/19/2020 at 8:33 PM, Pete said:

I have met Christians who believe in the death penalty and others who feel in an advanced civil society it is morally wrong. I am asking all viewpoints.

 

Here's a viewpoint.

 

 

[RevBogovac]

10 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

We are now discussing death as a goal.

 

There is also the Islamist terrorist, who wants a glorious death for the faith.  He thinks it will get him entry into Paradise.  We should not help him get this.  He does not want life in a cell.  That is what he should get.

 

 

 

I agree 100% (see my 3rd point):

 

23 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

[...] 3. it has nothing to do with justice/rehabilitation, actually... once you have put the person to death he couldn't care less (any more) [...]

 

[Pete]

10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Personal vengeance is negated in place of the law,  “But if anyone hates his neighbor, lies in wait for him, rises against him and strikes him mortally, so that he dies, and he flees to one of these cities, then the elders of his city shall send and bring him from there, and deliver him over to the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Your eye shall not pity him, but you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with you" (Deuteronomy 19: 11-13).

I thought Jesus did away with the law. Why obey just this one and not the one about killing everyone in a nearby town who had someone preaching another religion.  

I also note that Christianity is popular in prisons. Are you saying you would pray with them and throw the switch. It seems like double standards to me.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I agree 100% (see my 3rd point):

 

 

 

 

It is expectation.  Once the brain shuts down, horny young Islamists -- who can't get layed -- will lose their sexual urges.  Before that, they think being martyrs is their best route to eternal sex.  They want to die so that they can get busy with their heavenly virgins.  Life in (celibate) prison is not what they want.  That is what they should get.  As a standard punishment, it should calm the hormones of their peers.  They will know that it won't get them what they want.

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pastor Dave]

17 hours ago, Pete said:

I am a little surprised as god  did not order the death of Cain when he slew Abel and yet you do. Was not that also premeditated. 

 

There was no law at that time.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

There was no law at that time.

So your saying God's desires for us changed. I thought God was the same yesterday as today.

 

[Pastor Dave]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

So your saying God's desires for us changed. I thought God was the same yesterday as today.

 

 

Not at all Pete. What I said was,

2 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

There was no law at that time.

 

There can be no transgression of the law until the law has been given.