A Scientist Asks the God Question.

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Key said:

 Atheist can believe there is or isn't a God, but absent proof of existence, won't.

There's no compelling reason to believe, without evidence.

 

Of course, anyone can accept God with proof, but Atheist are Atheist because they'll never get that absolute proof.. So imo, they won't and don't believe anything about God. Consider that absolute proof removes the necessity of belief.

 

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Dan's standard response at this point, will be about receiving belief by faith.  He will also tell you that accepting belief is a choice.

 

Faith is the result of belief... And yes, belief is a choice, it can be nothing else.. Its a standard response because its absolutely true

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

57 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Of course, anyone can accept God with proof, but Atheist are Atheist because they'll never get that absolute proof.. So imo, they won't and don't believe anything about God. Consider that absolute proof removes the necessity of belief.

 

 

Faith is the result of belief... And yes, belief is a choice, it can be nothing else.. Its a standard response because its absolutely true

 

 

 

Alright.  I'm considering.       Your point?     

 

Brain damage might also remove the necessity of belief.  That would be a bad thing.  

Proof would be a good thing.     

This is why religion is called faith.  Not facts.    

 

Muslims also have faith.  So?    

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Key]

11 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Of course, anyone can accept God with proof, but Atheist are Atheist because they'll never get that absolute proof.. So imo, they won't and don't believe anything about God. Consider that absolute proof removes the necessity of belief.

 

 

Faith is the result of belief... And yes, belief is a choice, it can be nothing else.. Its a standard response because its absolutely true

 

Just as anyone can dismiss God without proof.

There are numerous religions with claims to an authentic God, while also claiming the other religions follow a false God. Accepting one or another God would also require faith, but doesn't necessarily mean they believe in the right God, right? Wouldn't burden of proof then validate belief?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

37 minutes ago, Key said:

Just as anyone can dismiss God without proof.

There are numerous religions with claims to an authentic God, while also claiming the other religions follow a false God. Accepting one or another God would also require faith, but doesn't necessarily mean they believe in the right God, right? Wouldn't burden of proof then validate belief?

 

 

Yes.     

 

 

[Key]

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Yes.     

 

 

Just understand, Jonathan, I am only arguing from the lens of what I understand another person's belief to be. Of course, that means I'm not always right, but am still grasping information as I go.

Personally, I do believe there is something unexplainable that exists and can't be either proven or disproved. I grew up Christian, after all.

But, as I got older, I started to see that maybe some of the things that Christ in the Bible was saying could be seen another way, similar to more Eastern thinking, or more Gnostic than is accepted by mainstream Christianity now or even when it became developed into a church after His death/ascendence.

Can't say it's a God, or universal consciousness that can be tapped into, or what. Yet, for me, there is something greater than just us out there.

Sorry, I have been accused of being quite wordy. I just can't elaborate as concisely as most folks.

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Key said:

Just as anyone can dismiss God without proof.

There are numerous religions with claims to an authentic God, while also claiming the other religions follow a false God. Accepting one or another God would also require faith, but doesn't necessarily mean they believe in the right God, right? Wouldn't burden of proof then validate belief?

 

True, many do dismiss God because of a lack of proof, they are called Atheist.

I claim that belief is a choice because it does involve choosing the right God. And since I 'believe' I've chosen the only right God (monotheist), I must presume all others are false and don't exist.   

Belief is what one has in the absence of definitive proof, but once belief is validated, its not belief anymore, it becomes a fact and belief is void of purpose (unnecessary).

 

Glad that your open-minded enough to wonder;  (Yet, for me, there is something greater than just us out there).. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Key said:

Just understand, Jonathan, I am only arguing from the lens of what I understand another person's belief to be. Of course, that means I'm not always right, but am still grasping information as I go.

Personally, I do believe there is something unexplainable that exists and can't be either proven or disproved. I grew up Christian, after all.

But, as I got older, I started to see that maybe some of the things that Christ in the Bible was saying could be seen another way, similar to more Eastern thinking, or more Gnostic than is accepted by mainstream Christianity now or even when it became developed into a church after His death/ascendence.

Can't say it's a God, or universal consciousness that can be tapped into, or what. Yet, for me, there is something greater than just us out there.

Sorry, I have been accused of being quite wordy. I just can't elaborate as concisely as most folks.

 

 

The ability to express ourselves, through words, is a skill that takes practice.  Don't worry.  Nobody is grading you.  You are doing well now.  With practice, you will become more skilled.  Like anything else.  Remember, the people who don't make mistakes -- seldom make anything else, either.     

 

Life is full of mysteries.  Deep mysteries.  Some people are happy to slap a God label onto things.  They think that this answers all questions.  I'm not one of them.  For that matter, there are different ideas about God.  And gods.

 

I am still searching.  Still questioning.  Over the years, I have found answers and discarded them.  Because I have been through these changes -- I don't worry about what other people think they have found.  At this stage in my life, I am much more clear about what I don't believe -- than what I do believe.

 

This much I am clear about.  It is best for me to be honest with myself -- and know when I don't know.  I don't need wrong answers, for the sake of having answers.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

True, many do dismiss God because of a lack of proof, they are called Atheist.

I claim that belief is a choice because it does involve choosing the right God. And since I 'believe' I've chosen the only right God (monotheist), I must presume all others are false and don't exist.   

Belief is what one has in the absence of definitive proof, but once belief is validated, its not belief anymore, it becomes a fact and belief is void of purpose (unnecessary).

 

Glad that your open-minded enough to wonder;  (Yet, for me, there is something greater than just us out there).. 

 

 

 

I have gone one step further, than you have.  I have gone on to not believe that your God exists.

 

They can't all be right.  They can all be wrong.

 

     

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

 

 

 

[Key]

On 11/25/2019 at 12:23 PM, Dan56 said:

 

True, many do dismiss God because of a lack of proof, they are called Atheist.

I claim that belief is a choice because it does involve choosing the right God. And since I 'believe' I've chosen the only right God (monotheist), I must presume all others are false and don't exist.   

Belief is what one has in the absence of definitive proof, but once belief is validated, its not belief anymore, it becomes a fact and belief is void of purpose (unnecessary).

 

Glad that your open-minded enough to wonder;  (Yet, for me, there is something greater than just us out there).. 

But what makes you think you "chose" to believe correctly? How are you certain your God is the right one out of so many, of which there are quite a few with similar claims or narratives.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Key said:

But what makes you think you "chose" to believe correctly? How are you certain your God is the right one out of so many, of which there are quite a few with similar claims or narratives.

 

 

Faith.               

 

 

 

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Key said:

But what makes you think you "chose" to believe correctly? How are you certain your God is the right one out of so many, of which there are quite a few with similar claims or narratives.

 

There are many reasons for my choice...

 

Put the New Testament to the test archaeologically, and it has been confirmed over and over again.

Jesus alone claimed that he was God himself.

Detailed material, eyewitnesses, and more written documentation of Christ than there is of Julius Caesar.

The truth will not contradict itself and the bible doesn't.

100% accurate prophecies, which is evidence of divine influence.

Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius, Krishna, etc, did not rise from the dead.  Only Christ physically rose from the dead.

 

I also believe that God reveals himself to those who earnestly seek him, its a spiritual revelation where one knows in their heart and is convicted of that one Truth.

All this adds to the legitimacy and credibility of Christianity above all other religions. So for myself, I chose to follow Christ.

But as Jonathan said, its a decision based in faith, and part of that faith is denying all other beliefs. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

There are many reasons for my choice...

 

Put the New Testament to the test archaeologically, and it has been confirmed over and over again.

Jesus alone claimed that he was God himself.

Detailed material, eyewitnesses, and more written documentation of Christ than there is of Julius Caesar.

The truth will not contradict itself and the bible doesn't.

100% accurate prophecies, which is evidence of divine influence.

Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius, Krishna, etc, did not rise from the dead.  Only Christ physically rose from the dead.

 

I also believe that God reveals himself to those who earnestly seek him, its a spiritual revelation where one knows in their heart and is convicted of that one Truth.

All this adds to the legitimacy and credibility of Christianity above all other religions. So for myself, I chose to follow Christ.

But as Jonathan said, its a decision based in faith, and part of that faith is denying all other beliefs. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)

 

 

 

 

 

 

To Dan:             Such wonderful consistency.  You will never change.     

 

To Key:        There are times when reason does not prevail.     

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

Further demonstrating that God is not a useful idea.

 

 

 

 

[Cornelius]

On 11/24/2019 at 8:49 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

And there we are.  Unchanging and unyielding.  Impervious to nuance or distinction.  And proud of it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you commenting on Dan or yourself?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 3/25/2020 at 11:10 AM, Stormbringer said:

Are you commenting on Dan or yourself?

 

 

Dan.

 

 

 

[Coolhand]

On 11/21/2019 at 5:44 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

A scientist Asks the God Question.

 

 

 

 

 

Pay attention around 2:40. It has always amazed me how otherwise brilliant smart people use tools and thoeries for physical properties and observation on something metaphysical, and then complain it does not work.

[cuchulain]

On 6/10/2020 at 2:31 PM, Coolhand said:

 

 

Pay attention around 2:40. It has always amazed me how otherwise brilliant smart people use tools and thoeries for physical properties and observation on something metaphysical, and then complain it does not work.

Similarly people use metaphysical hypotheses on physical properties with less success but insist it does work.

[Coolhand]

5 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Similarly people use metaphysical hypotheses on physical properties with less success but insist it does work.

 

 

Right........

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 6/12/2020 at 12:31 PM, Coolhand said:

 

 

Right........

 

 

I think that we are missing the humor here.  The conclusion, is that the question of God's existence, is not a science question.  It follows that science does not and can not answer that question.  That even asking whether or not God exists, is not relevant to science.  Science neither negates nor confirms faith.

 

I thought it was funny.  Also, valid.