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cuchulain

history and faith

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So what other questions can we see from looking at those articles?

There still is the question of the proto carnivore. Is their a proto herbivore? Do they have different beginnings. Or was there a proto mammal? Why is it that we can find so many fossils of species that we see as distinct from other species but have yet to find anything in between species.

 

(as a side note; I think in maybe another 50yrs or so, we may be able to answer more of these questions through genetics. Perhaps will we be able to reverse engineer the genes to see if the origins of all life on Earth came from a single source of chance combining of  random amino acids to form strands of RNA that randomly combined with other random strands of RNA to eventually (over eons) to form the first strands of DNA that randomly combined to form (over eons) all life on Earth while floating in the ocean. Or, if there are multiple trees of life and that each kind (species) of animal has a distinct prototype that allows for adaptation and change and that each of those was created by an intelligent force that guided the beginnings of life on Earth. Until then the questions remain open. At least for me)

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consider the wiki on the pit bull.  it didn't exist as a species until man bred it into existence.  we used our knowledge to evolve the specific traits in this breed.  doesnt that prove at least some of evolution?

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2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

consider the wiki on the pit bull.  it didn't exist as a species until man bred it into existence.  we used our knowledge to evolve the specific traits in this breed.  doesnt that prove at least some of evolution?

 

Dogs, my favorite example of the difference between macro and micro evolution. Modern breeds of dog  are said to be descended from wolves. Their breeding has been controlled by an intelligent force ( man ) to create everything from St Bernards, Great Pyrenees, and Bull Mastifs all the way down to the Chihuahua, Yorkie, and teacup Poodle. Even after all of our efforts they still remain just as much a canine as the wolf.

Edited by Pastor Dave

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11 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

Even after all of our efforts they still remain just as much a canine as the wolf.

Although, to be fair, we weren't trying to breed them into cows. We were just trying to breed "better" dogs. That purpose decided which puppies got to live and which adults got to breed, which shaped each successive generation. Remove that purpose from the process, allowing other pressures to determine who lives and breeds, and you would get different results.

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17 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

Why is it that evolution theory is not held to the same strict standards of observable, testable, predictable, repeatable, falsifiable  evidence as other areas of science?

In what way is it not? Evolutionary theories deal with things we cannot (currently) directly observe. The way science handles those sorts of things is to theorize based on available evidence, and alter and/or discard the theories as new evidence is produced. Consider this

Evolutionary theories provide models for how the world works. Even if those models are inaccurate, they are useful. They are useful because they provide a research framework that can be built on. A lot of progress in fields like virology have been built on that framework. 

Edited by mererdog

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Just now, mererdog said:

 Remove that purpose from the process, allowing other pressures to determine who lives and breeds, and you would get different results.

 

Yes, remove that purpose and you would get different results. It is likely we would have none of those breeds. Without intelligent intervention they would probably still be wolves. 

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Just now, mererdog said:

In what way is it not? Evolutionary theories deal with things we cannot (currently) directly observe. The way science handles those sorts of things is to theorize based on available evidence, and alter and/or discard the theories as new evidence is produced 

 

The way evolutionists deal with the lack of evidence is with speculation and conjecture. At least that is how I see it.

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30 minutes ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

The way evolutionists deal with the lack of evidence is with speculation and conjecture. At least that is how I see it.

I can appreciate your reasoning.   For evolutionary biology - with a historic reckoning in the neighborhood of 65 billion years in the making.....even the much briefer history of life in this planet requires a wee bit more than 100 or do years to reconstruct in detail...perhaps.   

 

Mankind has had the mere blink of an eye to process the information coming to us anew.   Arriving daily.   From a myriad of sources.    Allowing young people to understand the process and allowing them to marvel at what is possible might well expedite the few missing proofs.   Eh.... not to mention not all physical evidence survives millions of years in the making ;)

.... organic material does decompose over time.  

 

 However  the fragments, bones and DNA collected so far has caused proofs to leap forward at exponential rates of late.    I find it all pretty amazing in the last 50 years.    It is amazing what is knowable now.    Adding to that is big chunks of information made possible by the Hubble telescope.    And in less than two years the data streaming in from the new Webb telescope will jump our understanding forward at rates that will astound us still.   

 

Compters are cranking out lots lots of proof of lots of things.   We need more scientists to collaborate, coordinate and share things known only to a few currently... but it is being released as quickly as it is verified, tested retested as valid.  It is encouraging that speculation items are able to predict outcomes with such pinpoint accuracy.  It is also a good thing that science is more than willing to correct the record whenever better evidence is provided.    I am happy the record no longer is offered to us to have a “flat earth” point of view.   

 

I feel  fortunate to have lived long enough to see what is likely ( or even possible) to know.   I won’t live long enough to see the conclusion of the story :blush: but it is grand to see how far we have come.    I am happy with the chances humans have for the next 1,000 plus years.   On whatever planet they might add for inhabitation.;)

 

In the last three million years the evidence points to an ever increasing brain power for humans.    I have met a couple of people that might cause a person to question that as fact  :lol:.... but a glance at our collective advances is convincing.   

 

von

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1 hour ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

The way evolutionists deal with the lack of evidence is with speculation and conjecture. At least that is how I see it.

I don't know a lot about evolution.  I simply knew that pit bulls did not previously exist and that seems like SOME evidence of evolution to me, be it micro or macro.  I have read the bible.  It says a lot of things.  There are some things in the book which are true, historically, such as city locations.  So in a sense, that is SOME evidence of biblical truth.  But along the same lines of logic you are using on evolution, that SOME evidence doesn't prove the whole either.  And I see theists using speculation and conjecture MUCH more than I see science using such...although there is nothing inherently wrong with speculation and conjecture, when they are used as tools.

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4 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

they would probably still be wolves. 

What was that you said about speculation and conjecture? Dingoes and jackals and dholes, oh my! So many possibilities for who descended from who. How did you pin a likelihood on your answer?

I saw a genetic study where the scientists were convinced their evidence showed that wolves and dogs share a common ancestor, but that dogs are not descended from wolves. I don't claim to be able to understand the specifics of their research, much less reproduce it, but I also can't find any evidence that disproves their conclusion. Its a falsifiable claim, and there's a whole planet full of researchers looking to make a name for themselves by proving the other guy wrong. The truth will out, no?

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3 hours ago, VonNoble said:

In the last three million years the evidence points to an ever increasing brain power for humans.  

There is a multiplying effect with communication advances. As it becomes easier for us to compare notes with one another, it becomes easier for each of us to look like a genius, you know? Add the actual geniuses into the mix, and we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Look how big we all look when we stand up here!

Edited by mererdog
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2 hours ago, mererdog said:

There is a multiplying effect with communication advances. As it becomes easier for us to compare notes with one another, it becomes easier for each of us to look like a genius, you know? Add the actual geniuses into the mix, and we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Look how big we all look when we stand up here!

:clap2::clap2::clap2:

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9 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

The way evolutionists deal with the lack of evidence is with speculation and conjecture. At least that is how I see it.

As I read this thread, it occurred to me that one simple statement of yours could be used to prove evolution, in a way.

You mentioned your belief that Adam and Eve were the first humans. From that, one could logically conclude they were of the same race, since Eve was created from Adam's rib, thus share similar DNA.

So it begs the question: how did we get all the different races of men we have today? 

An argument may be that God did create other men, but kept only Adam and his mate in Eden. Okay.

But then He created "the flood" that swallowed the world, leaving only Noah and his brood safe in the ark. What then?

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10 hours ago, VonNoble said:

I can appreciate your reasoning.

......

von

Thanks.

I'll have to get back to you later on the rest of your post. I'm on my phone now and dislike typing on it.

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9 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I have read the bible.  It says a lot of things.  There are some things in the book which are true, historically, such as city locations.  So in a sense, that is SOME evidence of biblical truth.  But along the same lines of logic you are using on evolution, that SOME evidence doesn't prove the whole either.  And I see theists using speculation and conjecture MUCH more than I see science using such...although there is nothing inherently wrong with speculation and conjecture, when they are used as tools.

 

Yes I see speculation in some things theists say. I also see some facts in evolution theory. I guess my big gripe is in the way the speculation is what seems to tie the facts together but is presented in a way that the less discerning might see the conjecture as if it were fact. 

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12 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

Yes, remove that purpose and you would get different results. It is likely we would have none of those breeds. Without intelligent intervention they would probably still be wolves. 

 

7 hours ago, mererdog said:

What was that you said about speculation and conjecture? 

 

My attempt at humor may not have come across on that one. If you look I also used likely and both likely and probably were italicized. I was speaking of evolution so I was using evolutionary vocabulary. 

 

7 hours ago, mererdog said:

So many possibilities for who descended from who. How did you pin a likelihood on your answer?

 

By looking at what has been generally accepted by evolutionists and dog breeders for decades.

 

7 hours ago, mererdog said:

I saw a genetic study where the scientists were convinced their evidence showed that wolves and dogs share a common ancestor, but that dogs are not descended from wolves. I don't claim to be able to understand the specifics of their research, much less reproduce it, but I also can't find any evidence that disproves their conclusion. Its a falsifiable claim, and there's a whole planet full of researchers looking to make a name for themselves by proving the other guy wrong. The truth will out, no?

 

If this is true it doesn't really change my basic premise. I may need to pick a "new favorite" but the concept remains. 

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2 hours ago, Key said:

As I read this thread, it occurred to me that one simple statement of yours could be used to prove evolution, in a way.

You mentioned your belief that Adam and Eve were the first humans. From that, one could logically conclude they were of the same race, since Eve was created from Adam's rib, thus share similar DNA.

So it begs the question: how did we get all the different races of men we have today? 

An argument may be that God did create other men, but kept only Adam and his mate in Eden. Okay.

But then He created "the flood" that swallowed the world, leaving only Noah and his brood safe in the ark. What then?

 

Selective breeding. 

 

Btw all races of people are one species. 

 

Edited by Pastor Dave
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So very much wrong with the tortured logic that I have read here.  

 

In no particular order:

 

There is no evidence of the Great Flood.  Furthermore, there is not enough water on the planet, including the polar ice caps, to have raised the sea level to the point where the Ark would be able to float around for 40 days and 40 nights without scraping bottom.  And then, when the Flood receded, where did all that water go?

 

Evolution can be directly observed in high school biology class.  I did it in the early 90s by selectively breeding fruit flies (life span of about 30 days, reproductive phase of about 7 days) for chosen traits, like eye color and wing shape.  See also the work of Gregor Mendel and his pea plants.

 

Evolution is always happening due to environmental pressures preferring certain traits over others.  Darwin observed this directly with the "Darwin Finches" of the Galápagos Islands.

 

Please, for the love of all that you (each) hold holy, stop leaning on Wikipedia as a source of information.  As it can be edited and changed by basically anyone, it is generally unreliable on it's own.  Rather, read the post and scroll down to the bottom and search through the linked references.  THAT is where reputable information will be found.  In my university studies (about 6 years' worth, including an Associate's degree, a Bachelor's degree, and ongoing Master's degree work), the use of Wikipedia as any reference earned an automatic zero for any assignment.

 

The dependence on a monoculture (one general set of genetic stock) is an inherently unstable system.  That's one of the things that caused the reduction and extinction of previous species of banana.. Did you know that what we have today is not the same fruit as we had 20 years ago?

 

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6 minutes ago, Geordon said:

So very much wrong with the tortured logic that I have read here.  

 

In no particular order:

 

There is no evidence of the Great Flood.  Furthermore, there is not enough water on the planet, including the polar ice caps, to have raised the sea level to the point where the Ark would be able to float around for 40 days and 40 nights without scraping bottom.  And then, when the Flood receded, where did all that water go?

 

Evolution can be directly observed in high school biology class.  I did it in the early 90s by selectively breeding fruit flies (life span of about 30 days, reproductive phase of about 7 days) for chosen traits, like eye color and wing shape.  See also the work of Gregor Mendel and his pea plants.

 

Evolution is always happening due to environmental pressures preferring certain traits over others.  Darwin observed this directly with the "Darwin Finches" of the Galápagos Islands.

 

Please, for the love of all that you (each) hold holy, stop leaning on Wikipedia as a source of information.  As it can be edited and changed by basically anyone, it is generally unreliable on it's own.  Rather, read the post and scroll down to the bottom and search through the linked references.  THAT is where reputable information will be found.  In my university studies (about 6 years' worth, including an Associate's degree, a Bachelor's degree, and ongoing Master's degree work), the use of Wikipedia as any reference earned an automatic zero for any assignment.

 

The dependence on a monoculture (one general set of genetic stock) is an inherently unstable system.  That's one of the things that caused the reduction and extinction of previous species of banana.. Did you know that what we have today is not the same fruit as we had 20 years ago?

 

 

 

It is so much worse than that.  Pretend for a moment that all of these events actually happened.  It rained and rained until the oceans of the world covered the entire planet.  The entire planet was soaked in salt water.  You know what happens when land is covered in salt water?  Nothing grows there.  All plant life, everywhere, is gone.  Good by photosynthesis.  Good by oxygen/carbon cycle.  The planet's biosphere is dead.

 

So, the Ark finally lands, in the center of the ultimate bog.  Imagine the stench from dead bloated animals and rotten vegetation.  No food anywhere.  What does Noah do?  An animal sacrifice.  What are the carnivores going to eat?  What are the herbivores going to eat?  How are the penguins going to get to the south pole?  How are the Kangaroos going to get back to Australia?  How are the Lions going to get to Arica?  How are any of them going to breath?

 

Oh, yes.  Bio diversity.     Who are Noah's children going to mate with?  There is no one else.  That leaves incest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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