history and faith

[cuchulain]

i wonder of late.  if the bible IS infallible, and Christianity evolved from Judaism, and that began roughly 1500 b.c.e. by all the sources i can find, but the biblical age of the world is about 6k years...

 

why no evidence from BEFORE Judaism?  There was apparently 2500 years before Judaism, biblically speaking.  Am I missing something obvious?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i wonder of late.  if the bible IS infallible, and Christianity evolved from Judaism, and that began roughly 1500 b.c.e. by all the sources i can find, but the biblical age of the world is about 6k years...

 

why no evidence from BEFORE Judaism?  There was apparently 2500 years before Judaism, biblically speaking.  Am I missing something obvious?

 

 

If you actually care -- everything that happens in the Hebrew Scriptures -- everything -- has a date on the Jewish calendar.  If memory serves, this is the year 5778.  Have a care.  You are opening a huge can of worms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

30 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

If you actually care -- everything that happens in the Hebrew Scriptures -- everything -- has a date on the Jewish calendar.  If memory serves, this is the year 5778.  Have a care.  You are opening a huge can of worms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not trying to open that, just trying to find evidence of things from the beginning, where there appears to be a gap.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

not trying to open that, just trying to find evidence of things from the beginning, where there appears to be a gap.

 

Evidence?  From the Bible?  The gap is in external reality.  Where are we going with this?

 

 

[cuchulain]

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Evidence?  From the Bible?  The gap is in external reality.  Where are we going with this?

 

 

i was looking for archaeological confirmation from that 2500 year gap of christianity...you know they claim to have existed from the beginning, so there should be SOMETHING around the times of adam and eve, or close at least.  there are writings that old, so there should be something christian like that old since they had direct dealings with god and his NEW creations...or one would think, anyway.

[Pastor Dave]

Abraham was from Ur in Sumer. There are many tales written on tablets from Sumer that parallel pre Abraham stories in the Bible. Pre Noah, all archeological evidence would logically have been destroyed. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

52 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

i was looking for archaeological confirmation from that 2500 year gap of christianity...you know they claim to have existed from the beginning, so there should be SOMETHING around the times of adam and eve, or close at least.  there are writings that old, so there should be something christian like that old since they had direct dealings with god and his NEW creations...or one would think, anyway.

 

Alright.  Now that I have a grasp of what you are looking for.

 

The first thing to know about the Biblical God is that he's a trickster.  He created the world old.  If Adam had cut down a tree, he would have found rings in the tree showing a false age.  If Adam had dug into the ground, he would have found fossils of extinct species.  That is how a Young Earth Creationist explains away the evidence.  When we have an all powerful creator god, who lies and deceives, looking for evidence is a fool's errand.

 

The same all powerful creator god also hides and obscures evidence.  There is, for instance, no evidence at all that the Exodus happened.  More of God's deception.

 

Of course, false history is part of the game.  Ancient records from China and India, that don't mention the great flood.  Like it never happened.

 

You're looking for facts?  In the Bible?    That can be verified?     

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

23 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i wonder of late.  if the bible IS infallible, and Christianity evolved from Judaism, and that began roughly 1500 b.c.e. by all the sources i can find, but the biblical age of the world is about 6k years...

 

why no evidence from BEFORE Judaism?  There was apparently 2500 years before Judaism, biblically speaking.  Am I missing something obvious?

 

Judaism is just one of the 12 tribes of Israel, the prior periods of time are recorded in the bible. Adam to Noah = 2000 years, roughly 4000 BC to 2000 BC.. Abraham to Christ accounts for the following 2000 years. The bible follows the descendants of Adam (Hebrews- Israelites- Jews). Moses wrote the Pentateuch (Torah), so the time prior to 1500 BC was retrospectively recorded. I reckon that oral tradition transmitted history from one generation to another prior to that.. Nothing is missing.

[cuchulain]

2 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Judaism is just one of the 12 tribes of Israel, the prior periods of time are recorded in the bible. Adam to Noah = 2000 years, roughly 4000 BC to 2000 BC.. Abraham to Christ accounts for the following 2000 years. The bible follows the descendants of Adam (Hebrews- Israelites- Jews). Moses wrote the Pentateuch (Torah), so the time prior to 1500 BC was retrospectively recorded. I reckon that oral tradition transmitted history from one generation to another prior to that.. Nothing is missing.

I understand the concept of oral tradition being transmitted, I was a Druid I appreciate your response, but what I am aiming at is archaeological evidence for that time frame that backs up the religion that supposedly existed from the beginning of time.  Shouldn't there be SOMETHING in a 2500 year span before the beginning of Monotheism?  I understand that the bible claims this that and the other happened during that time frame, I am aiming at something extraneous of the bible to go along with the bible, you know?  There should be some surviving evidence of the faith in archaeological terms over such a long period of time FROM BEFORE THE FLOOD.  But I am not finding anything.  

 

Now, I fully admit my investigative skills are not top notch, so I come here in the hopes that somebody might be able to point out some pieces from that time frame, some evidence other than a book says so.  But I really do appreciate the response.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i was looking for archaeological confirmation from that 2500 year gap of christianity...you know they claim to have existed from the beginning, so there should be SOMETHING around the times of adam and eve, or close at least.  there are writings that old, so there should be something christian like that old since they had direct dealings with god and his NEW creations...or one would think, anyway.

 

Christian and Jewish archaeologists have been diligent in their search for evidence.  What have they found?  Nothing.  

[cuchulain]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Christian and Jewish archaeologists have been diligent in their search for evidence.  What have they found?  Nothing.  

I didn't think there was anything, but I had hoped to see if I was right or wrong.  It just strikes me that believers so often tell me there is so much archaeological evidence supporting the biblical claims that there just had to be something I didn't know about or hadn't found.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

I didn't think there was anything, but I had hoped to see if I was right or wrong.  It just strikes me that believers so often tell me there is so much archaeological evidence supporting the biblical claims that there just had to be something I didn't know about or hadn't found.  

 

If they had something, they would be waving it around for all to see.  Ask for proof.  What do they do?  Quote Scripture.  When that fails to impress, they pull out Pascal's wager.  Then they say that belief is a choice.  You know how the game is played.  Silly arguments.  

 

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull **."  There's never anything new.  Just the same old tired arguments.  And of course, threats of damnation.  Tell them where they can stuff their threats -- and they cry persecution.  They will insult you with Scripture, then tell you that your problem is with God.

 

Same old game.  Same old, same old.  I can't do it any more.  The steam is gone from my tank.  

 

[Pastor Dave]

17 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i was looking for archaeological confirmation from that 2500 year gap of christianity...you know they claim to have existed from the beginning 

 

I have to ask, what sect of Christianity  claims to have "existed from the beginning "?

Certainly none that I have ever been affiliated with. 

[VonNoble]

On 3/31/2018 at 12:58 PM, cuchulain said:

i wonder of late.  if the bible IS infallible, and Christianity evolved from Judaism, and that began roughly 1500 b.c.e. by all the sources i can find, but the biblical age of the world is about 6k years...

 

why no evidence from BEFORE Judaism?  There was apparently 2500 years before Judaism, biblically speaking.  Am I missing something obvious?

I am by far not the most learned person in this Forum about such things.

 

if I can try a rephrasing?     Since Genesis begins with creation of all living things.... and notes the Garden if Eden and the serpent...& the Apple and the fall and banishment.....with that provided .....it does allow for some question. Or maybe curiosity.    If the Torah’/old testament provides detailed ancestors linking the roots of the one true belief back to the beginning of time.... the the question (I think?) is placing Christianity as claiming to be there in the beginning.... maybe

 

1.   I am agreeing with Pastie Dave....it seems Christianity does not claim to be Christian..... until AFTER THE APPEARANCE OF CHRIST!

 

2.   The Old Testament-Torah established the reason for the Arrival of the Savior.... and indicates the lineage necessary to “ know Him”

 

3.   Only after the arrival of Jesus who fulfilled the aforementioned predictions.... articulating the new covenant (New Testament)  did the Christian (followers if Christ) emerge

 

4. If you want an archeological item dating to the Garden of Eden .... an instrument that actually was in play ...a tangible between God and man...... the Muslims have it.    As I understand it the original altar used by Abraham is in Mecca.

 

if I managed to screw any of this up.... my apologies to true believers.... I am hoping I got the basics correct.

 

von

[VonNoble]

It seems perhaps those choosing faith in Christianity do so hinged on the operative word “faith”

 

In the New Testament..... after Easter Sunday..... Jesus appeared to the disciples.    Thomas was not there.   When told the Lord had appeared Thomas did not believe and said he would not believe until he himself examined the Risen Lord....which eventually happened.   When they met up Thomas recognized it was Christ and fell down to worship Jesus.   Jesus gently put things aright ..:but noted those who believe without proof (all those to follow this...his last appearance till the Rapture.... all the millions of our times who believe without concrete evidence... those will be found virtuous for being faithfilled.

They believe without the benefit of direct physical evidence 

 

Therefore anyone searching for proof is out there more than likely to shut up the faithless.    The faithful have accepted the story as reality.... and go about their business (most of them) without need to prove anything except their loyalty ....to God.

 

von 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

It seems perhaps those choosing faith in Christianity do so hinged on the operative word “faith”

 

In the New Testament..... after Easter Sunday..... Jesus appeared to the disciples.    Thomas was not there.   When told the Lord had appeared Thomas did not believe and said he would not believe until he himself examined the Risen Lord....which eventually happened.   When they met up Thomas recognized it was Christ and fell down to worship Jesus.   Jesus gently put things aright ..:but noted those who believe without proof (all those to follow this...his last appearance till the Rapture.... all the millions of our times who believe without concrete evidence... those will be found virtuous for being faithfilled.

They believe without the benefit of direct physical evidence 

 

Therefore anyone searching for proof is out there more than likely to shut up the faithless.    The faithful have accepted the story as reality.... and go about their business (most of them) without need to prove anything except their loyalty ....to God.

 

von 

 

 

When the prime requisite to be tight with God is to "believe" without evidence -- what kind of world does that set us up for?  God wants us to be victim to every con artist and huckster?  No place for evidence or common sense?  Is this really what God wants for us?  Eternal victimhood to every sly predator with a story and a con?

[cuchulain]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:15 AM, Pastor Dave said:

 

I have to ask, what sect of Christianity  claims to have "existed from the beginning "?

Certainly none that I have ever been affiliated with. 

Don't they all?  "In the beginning..." and all that?  Where their God is directly talking to them?  I mean, if they believe in Adam and Eve literally, wouldn't that have made them the first "Christians"?  I know I am using the term lightly, as Christians are technically followers of Christ who didn't live back then and all that, but I am talking about that prime source, if you can see where I am aiming.  I am wondering what happened from direct knowledge of God, from Adam and Eve, that led their people to descend into worshipping different beings, when their parents KNEW God was real(that is, if any of it was real).

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

13 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Don't they all?  "In the beginning..." and all that?  Where their God is directly talking to them?  I mean, if they believe in Adam and Eve literally, wouldn't that have made them the first "Christians"?  I know I am using the term lightly, as Christians are technically followers of Christ who didn't live back then and all that, but I am talking about that prime source, if you can see where I am aiming.  I am wondering what happened from direct knowledge of God, from Adam and Eve, that led their people to descend into worshipping different beings, when their parents KNEW God was real(that is, if any of it was real).

 

Aside from the historic Jesus -- Christianity also recognizes  the Eternal Christ, who was present from the beginning.     

 

Courtesy of Biblegateway.com   

 

Bible search results

John 1:1

[ The Eternal Word ] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

[Rev. Calli]

On 3/31/2018 at 1:58 PM, cuchulain said:

i wonder of late.  if the bible IS infallible, and Christianity evolved from Judaism, and that began roughly 1500 b.c.e. by all the sources i can find, but the biblical age of the world is about 6k years...

 

why no evidence from BEFORE Judaism?  There was apparently 2500 years before Judaism, biblically speaking.  Am I missing something obvious?

Greetings to you my brother,

 

You're missing the obvious point that the Bible is a book of faith, not science.  If you try to take it and come up with the age of the world, or history is we would understand it, you miss the point completely.  The bible is a history of how the people of ancient Israel and early Christianity came to understand their relationship with God.  Is it infallible?  Not in the way my fundamentalist brothers and sisters would insist.  It teaches us what God wants us to know about being a people of faith, and especially when we get into the New Testament, how we are to live in relationship with each other, as Christ taught.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Rev. Calli]

12 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Don't they all?  "In the beginning..." and all that?  Where their God is directly talking to them?  I mean, if they believe in Adam and Eve literally, wouldn't that have made them the first "Christians"?  I know I am using the term lightly, as Christians are technically followers of Christ who didn't live back then and all that, but I am talking about that prime source, if you can see where I am aiming.  I am wondering what happened from direct knowledge of God, from Adam and Eve, that led their people to descend into worshipping different beings, when their parents KNEW God was real(that is, if any of it was real).

Greetings to you my brother,

 

Oh dear, I don't even believe in Adam and Eve, does that make me less of a Christian?  

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli