When reality strikes?

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, Child of God said:

I am a Christian and I see this as an idiotic act.

Can you explain what you mean? Dan and Pastor Dave have opposite views and both are Christian. I am an agnostic (previously Christian). None of us are idiots. Unless your refering to the charging at lions bit. Then I agree with you. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Pete

[Pastor Dave]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

I still believe God can and does still perform miracles today if He chooses, but He does not give people that ability any more, those gifts served their purpose and have ceased.

 

 

The new quoting function is wacky........

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Ok so it's not that you don't believe that God can and will and does perform miracles, including healing, but rather that you don't believe any man is given the power to do so. Is that correct?
If that is the case then i can agree with you . Even Oral Roberts, the most well known faith healer of the 20th century said that it wasn't him that healed, it was God who healed.

Let's look at James 5:14-16

 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

For me this passage is very clear that we the church, are called to pray over the sick. That prayer is not just to make our conscious feel better, but rather, it is that they may be healed  Notice that it didn't say send for one of the Apostles to heal the sick. It says to call for the elders of the church and let them pray over them. It also tells us to pray for one another. To me that is simply saying that the elders of the church should be your first choice when seeking intercessory prayer however all believers should pray for one another that we be healed of any infirmity that may afflict us.  I believe that the calling of the elders is because they should be more mature in their faith. Being more mature, and having seen the power of God expressed more than others, the elders faith should be very strong. Never the less, we believers are to pray for one another so that our faith be strengthened. Then it finishes telling us that an effective prayer is a fervent prayer. Simply saying, "Lord heal this person. Amen" in a Ben Stein monotone is not a very fervent and therefore not very effectual prayer. You have to get your spirit involved in the prayer not just your mind. You may need to start your prayer a little cerebrally but as your prayer deepens prayer should come from the guidance of the Holy Spirit leading your spirit.

If you are praying for someone it also says the prayer of a righteous man  availeth much Full Definition of avail intransitive verb :  to be of use or advantage :  serve <our best efforts did not avail> transitive verb :  to produce or result in as a benefit or advantage :  gain <his efforts availed him nothing> or in other words .....  the prayer of a righteous man will produce an abundant benefit or advantage. Before you remind me of Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: or Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (which is where "it is written") let me say that in myself I am not righteous. However, according to 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. In Christ we have been made the righteousness of God. Therefore everyone who is in Christ is righteous.

 

 

[Pastor Dave]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

 Show me the evidence in numbers.

While making my last post I mentioned Brother Oral Roberts. The Holy spirit brought to memory that fact that Brother Roberts had a miracle healing himself over a decade before he started his ministry. At seventeen years of age he was diagnosed with tuberculosis and was bedridden for more than five months. He was totally healed of this and his stuttering in July 1935 at a tent revival conducted by evangelist George W. Moncey in Ada, Oklahoma.  I know that's not in numbers but I just thought it would be worth mentioning.

[Pastor Dave]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Dan and Pastor Dave have opposite views and both are Christian. I am an agnostic (previously Christian). None of us are idiots.

Thanks Pete. I agree, I don't think any of us are idiots either.

 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Pastor Dave said:

While making my last post I mentioned Brother Oral Roberts. The Holy spirit brought to memory that fact that Brother Roberts had a miracle healing himself over a decade before he started his ministry. At seventeen years of age he was diagnosed with tuberculosis and was bedridden for more than five months. He was totally healed of this and his stuttering in July 1935 at a tent revival conducted by evangelist George W. Moncey in Ada, Oklahoma.  I know that's not in numbers but I just thought it would be worth mentioning.

TB will always be present in his body. Once you have it the bug remains but may not be active. If he was healed I would put it down to antibiotics or a respite rather than anything else. 

[Brother Kaman]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Can you explain what you mean? Dan and Pastor Dave have opposite views and both are Christian. I am an agnostic (previously Christian). None of us are idiots. Unless your refering to the charging at lions bit. Then I agree with you. 

The charging lions is the subject, after all.  That and the idiot they were charging.

[Dan56]

9 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

Ok so it's not that you don't believe that God can and will and does perform miracles, including healing, but rather that you don't believe any man is given the power to do so. Is that correct?
If that is the case then i can agree with you . Even Oral Roberts, the most well known faith healer of the 20th century said that it wasn't him that healed, it was God who healed.

Let's look at James 5:14-16

 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Yes, that's essentially my pov... Nothing wrong with praying for healing, its just my contention that the apostolic authority to command instantaneous miracles was a one time deal.

I know a woman who was a one time Christian who got involved in a charismatic church which performed healings. When she failed to be healed at a service, the reverend told her it was because she lacked faith. She left the church discouraged and feeling like she wasn't good enough. That's why I'm very leery of preachers who claim to heal, they inevitably scare people away after they learn its all a gimmick. That woman now thinks Christianity is just a big malarkey, and says the reverend is nothing more than a fake who plays on peoples emotions. Imo, people who claim to do miracles today are a disservice to Christ.  

[cuchulain]

IF god started everything with a plan, a great masterwork, something he apparently put a lot of thought into(as george carlin would say), then who are WE to come along and ask him to change it?  Who are we to completely ruin God's great and divine plan?  After all, God is perfect, right?  And if he is perfect, and everything he does is perfect, then asking to change his perfection, that just seems like thumbing our noses, yes?  At least, assuming God is real, in the Christian sense.  Of course, I suppose...God's plan might have accounted for all those prayers, him supposedly knowing everything and all...in which case everything must be predetermined, and free will becomes an illusion.

[Child of God]

22 hours ago, Pete said:

Can you explain what you mean? Dan and Pastor Dave have opposite views and both are Christian. I am an agnostic (previously Christian). None of us are idiots. Unless your refering to the charging at lions bit. Then I agree with you. 

I was referring to the charging of lions.

[Pete]

3 hours ago, Child of God said:

I was referring to the charging of lions

Sorry - I see that now,  I just got caught up with all the talk about faith healers.

[Pete]

I found this interesting https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/faith-healing/

"The Evidence for Faith Healing

There are lots of reports describing the emperor’s new clothes, but investigations consistently show he is naked. There is a good review of faith healing on Quackwatch. When faith healings have been diligently investigated by qualified doctors, they have found no evidence that the patients were actually helped in any objective sense. Even at Lourdes, the Catholic Church has only recognized 4 cures since 1978, out of 5 million people who seek healing there every year.

There simply is no evidence that faith healing heals. Not what science considers evidence. And the true believers don’t value evidence or the scientific method: for them, belief is enough."

also:- 

"Is Spirituality Helpful?

A 1996 poll of 1,000 adults found that 79% believed that spiritual faith can help people recover from disease [19]. This idea is also popular among physicians. Although many studies have found associations between various measures of religiosity and health, no well-designed study has demonstrated that religious beliefs or prayer actually benefit health [20]. In fact, one well-designed study found just the opposite. The study involved patients whose progress was followed for nine months after discharge from a British hospital. They evaluated the outpatient records and the responses of 189 patients to questionnaires. the researchers concluded that the health status of patients with stronger spiritual beliefs were more than twice as likely to be unimproved or worse [21]. Although some studies have found that churchgoers tend to be healthier and to live longer than nonchurchgoers, church attendance itself is unlikely to be responsible for the difference [22]."

Stephen Barrett, M.D.

From http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html

Edited March 21, 2016 by Pete

[Pastor Dave]

Well that's nice and all that Pete but I can't put a lot of faith in what Stephen Barrett thinks. "Donna Ladd, a journalist with The Village Voice, says Barrett relies mostly on negative research to criticize alternative medicine, rejecting most positive case studies as unreliable due to methodological flaws. She further writes that Barrett insists that most alternative therapies simply should be disregarded without further research." I think a lot of others here would agree that Barrett is biased. He dismisses nutritional therapies, acupuncture, herbal therapies, reiki, chiropractic services, homeopathy along with prayer and the laying on of hands.

Here is a link showing prayer and a belief in God as being effective. An exhaustive analysis of more than 1,500 reputable medical studies “indicates people who are more religious and pray more have better mental and physical health,” Dr. Koenig says.

" The proof of the power of prayer is overwhelming, says researcher and writer Tom Knox, a one-time atheist who became a regular worshiper after doing in-depth study of the medical benefits of faith."

"Research at San Francisco General Hospital looked at the effect of prayer on 393 cardiac patients. Half were prayed for by strangers who had only the patients’ names. Those patients had fewer complications, fewer cases of pneumonia, and needed less drug treatment. They also got better quicker and left the hospital earlier."

While I am  sure this won't convince you to think other than you already do I am also sure that for every link you can provide saying prayer doesn't work I can post a link showing that it does. It all boils down to what do you choose to believe.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Pastor Dave
q

[cuchulain]

At this time, I believe Dave is correct.  The research is there on both sides of the issue, and one person can easily discredit another's research, while at the same time pointing at a different piece as the key evidence.  The problem for this subject with me is that there is no measure for the supernatural, and thus the power of prayer cannot possibly be accurately measured.  If it could be accurately measured, I would have no idea how to go about such, but if it could, then we could begin discussing it at least in relation to healing.  At this point, however, even if someone were to claim research supported it, in what measure?  Can you see a doctor saying "I prescribe 400 mg of prayer"?  Personally, I prefer Acetomenophin.

[Pete]

8 minutes ago, Pastor Dave said:

Well that's nice and all that Pete but I can't put a lot of faith in what Stephen Barrett thinks. "Donna Ladd, a journalist with The Village Voice, says Barrett relies mostly on negative research to criticize alternative medicine, rejecting most positive case studies as unreliable due to methodological flaws. She further writes that Barrett insists that most alternative therapies simply should be disregarded without further research." I think a lot of others here would agree that Barrett is biased. He dismisses nutritional therapies, acupuncture, herbal therapies, reiki, chiropractic services, homeopathy along with prayer and the laying on of hands.

Here is a link showing prayer and a belief in God as being effective. An exhaustive analysis of more than 1,500 reputable medical studies “indicates people who are more religious and pray more have better mental and physical health,” Dr. Koenig says.

" The proof of the power of prayer is overwhelming, says researcher and writer Tom Knox, a one-time atheist who became a regular worshiper after doing in-depth study of the medical benefits of faith."

"Research at San Francisco General Hospital looked at the effect of prayer on 393 cardiac patients. Half were prayed for by strangers who had only the patients’ names. Those patients had fewer complications, fewer cases of pneumonia, and needed less drug treatment. They also got better quicker and left the hospital earlier."

While I am  sure this won't convince you to think other than you already do I am also sure that for every link you can provide saying prayer doesn't work I can post a link showing that it does. It all boils down to what do you choose to believe.

There has been later research on patients that had the opposite findings which suggests to me there is no measurable affect at all. As for the mental health issue, there is much research and it points towards respecting people's faith because they help lead to the holistic support for a person. There is no research that points to people not getting treatment and getting success from prayer alone. Neither any research that shows that only Christianity has a beneficial affect. Buddhism has also been shown to have some support.  Again this indicates that it is not the religion that brings about the healing or prayer but the person regaining a movement to self actualisation by using faith.   

[AustralisAquarii]

7 billion people all living in so many nations with all their different beliefs. Yet we come into this world the same and we leave it the same. So if we all believe that what we believe is right and we have different beliefs. Is there a correct belief? Or are all beliefs incorrect? Or is reality only in the time after death and it doesn't matter what we believe?

[Pete]

On 10/04/2016 at 0:42 AM, AustralisAquarii said:

7 billion people all living in so many nations with all their different beliefs. Yet we come into this world the same and we leave it the same. So if we all believe that what we believe is right and we have different beliefs. Is there a correct belief? Or are all beliefs incorrect? Or is reality only in the time after death and it doesn't matter what we believe?

Welcome to the forum AustralisAquarii

It is true that there is no evidence that says one religion or non religion has any better outcomes than any other. It becomes important to a persons recovery if the person feels that they are holistically supported. However, this does have difficulties with some religions who actively prevent treatments. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 3/22/2016 at 9:59 AM, cuchulain said:

At this time, I believe Dave is correct.  The research is there on both sides of the issue, and one person can easily discredit another's research, while at the same time pointing at a different piece as the key evidence.  The problem for this subject with me is that there is no measure for the supernatural, and thus the power of prayer cannot possibly be accurately measured.  If it could be accurately measured, I would have no idea how to go about such, but if it could, then we could begin discussing it at least in relation to healing.  At this point, however, even if someone were to claim research supported it, in what measure?  Can you see a doctor saying "I prescribe 400 mg of prayer"?  Personally, I prefer Acetomenophin.

Even if prayer is worthless as therapy; at least it is harmless.  Acetaminophen is very bad for the liver.      

Edited April 19, 2016 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

Ah....but prayer is only harmless as therapy if it does not replace an actual therapy that is necessary, yes?  A believer might think prayer is all they need, when in reality antibiotics might actually save their lives.  True about Acetaminophen though, being bad for the liver.  But only if not taken properly, or if the patient has a liver condition, usually.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

Ah....but prayer is only harmless as therapy if it does not replace an actual therapy that is necessary, yes?  A believer might think prayer is all they need, when in reality antibiotics might actually save their lives.  True about Acetaminophen though, being bad for the liver.  But only if not taken properly, or if the patient has a liver condition, usually.

 

I never said that prayer was useful or effective as therapy.  It's not.  Only harmless.  If a sick person gets emotional support from prayer, there is no reason to withhold it.  Sick people need all the emotional support they can get.  If there is a placebo effect, so much the better.  If there is stress reduction, so much the better.

     

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Umbraedeus]

I do not believe that prayer should ever be used in place of standard medicine, but I do believe that sometimes prayer has a beneficial effect. Being a psychic or energy Vampire, I have sometimes (but not always) been aware of subtle energy exchanges taking place during prayer or faith healing, similar to Reiki or shamanic healing practices. I believe there are hidden forces that come into play, and an individual or group can send out positive energy resulting in healing or perhaps the acceleration of the healing process. I also believe an individual or group can send out negative energy resulting in an individual feeling ill or depressed, cursed if you will. I think this has to do more with energy manipulation in a generic sense rather than a specific deity or particular religion. I believe the spells of a Vodou priest can be as effective as the prayers of an evangelical Christian minister. I am not attempting to convince others to endorse my beliefs, but merely wish to express them. Quoting Bela Lugosi as Dr. Verdegast in The Black Cat (1934):

Peter Allison: "I don't know. It all sounds like a lot of supernatural baloney to me."

Dr. Vitus Verdegast: "Supernatural, perhaps. Baloney, perhaps not. There are many things under the sun."

Yours in Darkness,

Umbraedeus

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Umbraedeus