Do You Consider Yourself To Be A Pacifist?

[Bluecat]

If your daughter was being raped, even a good dog would naturally attack her rapist, but a pacifist would not physically lift a finger to intercede. Where exactly is the spiritual victory in that? If an assailant broke into your house and came at your wife with a butcher knife, a pacifist might crawl over and brown nose the attacker begging him to stop. What exactly is the spiritual war the pacifist is fighting? And where's the victory? Imo, nonresistance in the face of evil aggression is neither a physical or spiritual war, but a wimpish surrender at best. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just fail to understand how a pacifist stands or fights for anything? What spiritual victory is achieved when a pacifist stands idly by while innocent people are hurt or killed? Violence is a method of resistance, self-defense, and survival, so I doubt I'll ever respect a pacifist for refusing to protect themselves or help out a fellow citizen who's being attacked. No offense intended, jmo.

If no offence were really intended, you might choose different words, Dan. 'Wimpish' 'crawl' and 'brown nose' are not exactly neutral.

But, overall, it does look like you have not done much research or reading as to what pacifism actually consists in.

If your daughter was being raped, even a good dog would naturally attack her rapist, but a pacifist would not physically lift a finger to intercede.

I believe the pacifist response to 'if you saw your daughter/sister/mother being raped" is 'I would try to get between them' - thereby thwarting the aggression and protecting the person under attack.

In other words, they would intercede.

There is a difference between interceding and attacking.

[Youch]

I am not a worm.

[Dan52]

True- the God of the Old Testament. However Jesus told us that God wasn`t like that! That is the major difference between the Old and New Testament. As for Revelations, those are not the words of Jesus.

Jesus never denied anything God did in the old testament. The message was actually the same, but we are now living under grace and judgment has been suspended until time ends. The first sentence in Revelation clearly states its the revelation of Jesus Christ given to John, to say otherwise is tantamount to saying that the law of Moses were not God's laws. JMO

If no offence were really intended, you might choose different words, Dan. 'Wimpish' 'crawl' and 'brown nose' are not exactly neutral.

But, overall, it does look like you have not done much research or reading as to what pacifism actually consists in.

Yes, I've re-accessed what others consider pacifism, and learned that most pacifist are pro self-defense, at least those participating in this discussion. My initial impression was that their anti-war stance extended into their personal lives too, but it became apparent that most of them would resort to violence as a matter of self-preservation. So my colorful adjectives accurately described a coward, but were inappropriately directed towards pacifism. I do know pacifist who are nonviolent in every aspect of their lives, including one of my own sisters, but it appears that most self-described pacifist are capable of violence, but only after exhausting every other avenue of resolving a conflict. In that sense, I myself agree with a loose version of pacifism, and could possibly be defined as a pacifist myself?

[grateful]

I am not a worm.

now Happy, what does this mean? are you calling your erstwhile friend grateful and others ..... worms? (or did I miss something?)

[RevTom]

There is a great juxtaposition with this and another conversation thread. I believe the thread is "is Christianity the only right way?" In it a couple of us have espoused our views that the Creator does just that-create, then does not interfere with the creation. I do believe in Karma, and that what one does is re payed 3 fold. I do not believe it to be just or moral or ethical to stand by and watch or do nothing if one witnesses a murder, rape, etc in progress or imminent. I agree that this life is not meaningless- only a lesson for an afterlife (paraphrasing a reply by Hrodebert's earlier post) that may not exist. It also gives a good perspective for your byline from Marcus Aurelius "Live a good life. If there be gods..."

[Kingfisher]

now Happy, what does this mean? are you calling your erstwhile friend grateful and others ..... worms? (or did I miss something?)

I think he's advising us not to tread on him.

"I would not enter on my list of friends (though graced with polish’d manners and fine sense, yet wanting sensibility) the man who needlessly sets foot upon a worm." ~ William Cowper, The Task

[grateful]

I think he's advising us not to tread on him.

"I would not enter on my list of friends (though graced with polish’d manners and fine sense, yet wanting sensibility) the man who needlessly sets foot upon a worm." ~ William Cowper, The Task

ah

(like the quote)

[sounrad]

This poll reminds me of a situation I've encountered last week actually

My mom and I were at a gas station waiting for our turn and the next attendant (I'm from NJ). Anyways, as we were pulling up a pick up truck with a boat on the back cut in front of us and laughed.

My mom honked the horn and said, "Hey! I was next!"

What happened next I would of never guessed...

He gets out of his truck, over to my moms side, and attempts to open her door. He succeeded once, and reached his hand in, my mom slammed the door on his hand and wound up locking the door....

I am a five foot four (now, a little round in the center due to a poor work schedule and delicious fast food.) however, I am an ex field hockey (semi professional) and lacrosse goalie, so my arms, stature and legs are built so....not to brag but, I can be a bit intimidating (not that I want to be)

Anyways, this crazed man, comes around to my side of the car, I got out first (which is stupid in hind sight.) and simply said, "Go back to your car. this is enough." He then comes to reach around me to grab the handle of the passenger side door, which was left unlocked due to my recent departure....

A look of urgency and need to defend my mom came over me, "You need to get back to your car." I don't know if it was the sternness in my voice, or the equally crazed look in my eyes, but he began to back off. I opened the rear passenger side door and slide out a baseball bat, the eerie sound of the metal bat scraping against the concrete was fuel for him, for he attempted to open my moms car door again...

I rushed to meet him again on the opposite side of the car holding the bat to my side, and simply said, "You're making a stupid mistake." he saw my white knuckles, and i began to slightly raise the bat he backed away quickly and sped off.

I'm not proud of initiating violence but I felt the need because, I felt my mom to be justified.

Anyways, point being, if I were alone....I would of never even mentioned about the man cutting in front of me rudely....and in the event I had, I would of never met him face to face.

Perhaps, my solo pacifism is due to nerves, or just the inability to fight...even for something that is mine.

Sorry it was long!

[Dan52]

I'm not proud of initiating violence but I felt the need because, I felt my mom to be justified.

Imo, you should be proud because you did the right thing. When some angry idiot is trying to pull your

car door open, your not the one who's initiating violence. The situation was forced upon you and you took

a defensive stand. I've always kept a bat, crowbar, or hammer in my car for such occasions, there's too

many retards out there looking for trouble, so its always good to keep something handy to protect yourself.

[Fawzo]

Imo, you should be proud because you did the right thing. When some angry idiot is trying to pull your

car door open, your not the one who's initiating violence. The situation was forced upon you and you took

a defensive stand. I've always kept a bat, crowbar, or hammer in my car for such occasions, there's too

many retards out there looking for trouble, so its always good to keep something handy to protect yourself.

I thought God was suppose to protect us....

Do not fret because of those who are evil

or be envious of those who do wrong;

2

for like the grass they will soon wither,

like green plants they will soon die away.

3

Trust in the Lord and do good;

dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture.

4

Take delight in the Lord,

and he will give you the desires of your heart.

5

Commit your way to the Lord;

trust in him and he will do this:

6

He will make your righteous reward shine like the dawn,

your vindication like the noonday sun.

7

Be still before the Lord

and wait patiently for him;

do not fret when people succeed in their ways,

when they carry out their wicked schemes.

8

Refrain from anger and turn from wrath;

do not fret —it leads only to evil.

9

For those who are evil will be destroyed,

but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land.

10

A little while, and the wicked will be no more;

though you look for them, they will not be found.

11

But the meek will inherit the land

and enjoy peace and prosperity.

12

The wicked plot against the righteous

and gnash their teeth at them;

13

but the Lord laughs at the wicked,

for he knows their day is coming.

14

The wicked draw the sword

and bend the bow

to bring down the poor and needy,

to slay those whose ways are upright.

15

But their swords will pierce their own hearts,

and their bows will be broken.

16

Better the little that the righteous have

than the wealth of many wicked;

17

for the power of the wicked will be broken,

but the Lord upholds the righteous.

18

The blameless spend their days under the Lord’s care,

and their inheritance will endure forever.

19

In times of disaster they will not wither;

in days of famine they will enjoy plenty.

20

But the wicked will perish:

Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,

they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

21

The wicked borrow and do not repay,

but the righteous give generously;

22

those the Lord blesses will inherit the land,

but those he curses will be destroyed.

23

The Lord makes firm the steps

of the one who delights in him;

24

though he may stumble, he will not fall,

for the Lord upholds him with his hand.

25

I was young and now I am old,

yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken

or their children begging bread.

26

They are always generous and lend freely;

their children will be a blessing.

[

b

]

27

Turn from evil and do good;

then you will dwell in the land forever.

28

For the Lord loves the just

and will not forsake his faithful ones.

[Dan52]

I thought God was suppose to protect us....

I don't think the 37th Psalm is referring to physical protection, but spiritual deliverance from evil and wickedness. Everyone experiences affliction, physical hardships, and suffering, but we can be protected from our ultimate enemy---sin. This is why Christ prayed; "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil". The prophets and apostles experienced tough times and death, so God's protection would seem to lean more towards inheriting eternal life, rather than physical preservation. We fight evil with good, and sometimes using a good club to put evil in its place is necessary.

[Qryos]

~ Sounrad, I understand completely...

I will be quiet & sweet & actually run&hide when it's myself, but another person in danger?

I jump in too.

{ Not proud of it. It just needed.}

Nice to meet you!

[Youch]

I once commented that most members of ULC were pacifist. This was just my impression derived from most of the post I've read. My opinion was based on a general opposition to war or violence as a means of addressing problems that can't be arbitrarily resolved any other way. I also noticed that pacifism permeates into a persons religious persuasion, as most members are swayed into beliefs that reject the idea of punishment or hell.. While the idea of a nonviolent God may seem appealing, do you restrict your belief (if any) to a deity that does not resort to violence or punishment as a means of settling anything? Is God a pacifist? Is it possible for a pacifistic God to render righteous judgment?

Am I? No. It just does not make any natural sense to be so. Animals in nature are not pacifists. They are survivalists, desiring to survive even at the sake of others.

Determining if humans consider "God" to be a pacifist is an odd question. Humans cannot even agree on a God, much less what he/she/it thinks/feels/does.

[Zequatanil]

Am I? No. It just does not make any natural sense to be so. Animals in nature are not pacifists. They are survivalists, desiring to survive even at the sake of others.

Determining if humans consider "God" to be a pacifist is an odd question. Humans cannot even agree on a God, much less what he/she/it thinks/feels/does.

Very few animals kill for sport--man does . Generally animals do not hunt more than they eat. So infact animals are pacifists in a way.I equate pacifism with unnecessary violence before exploring other alternatives to resolving the issue. This does not mean that one should not defend oneself especially when it comes to survival. One can be a survivalist and a pacifist.

As for the mind of God--no one knows--I agree with you--not even Einstein, Hawking, Dawkins, Davies nor I.

Einstein said: `God is the garden and the gardener`. Perhaps that is the closest then we shall come to it.

Hawking puts it rather succinctly: `If we do discover a theory of everything...it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason--for then we would truly know the mind of God`. Will it happen? We all have our personal beliefs--all of us are correct. Maybe Bohr was correct in that God does play dice, but then maybe Einstein was right in that God just dosn`t.

peace and blessings,

S

Edited August 15, 2012 by sarkany

[Brother Kaman]

Cats kill for pleasure. All animals will fight to the death to survive, with the exception of some humans.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Brother Kaman

[Verisoph]

I am a pacifist.

I'm unconvinced that gods exist, so I don't care to comment on their feelings.

[Cornelius]

Soph!!

[Verisoph]

Hello Hrodebert.

[Bro. Hex]

Hello Verisoph, and welcome back!

[Dan52]

I once commented that most members of ULC were pacifist. This was just my impression derived from most of the post I've read. My opinion was based on a general opposition to war or violence as a means of addressing problems that can't be arbitrarily resolved any other way.

Well, the poll shows over twice as many pacifist as non-pacifist, so my perception was spot-on. Thanks to all who participated.