What Level Of Responsibility Does Christianity Hold For The Dark Ages?

[Fawzo]

I have seen some interesting discussions on this topic and would like to open up the topic here as well.

Did the suppression of Scientific Discoveries and suppression of free thought create the environment that led to the Dark Ages?

[mark 45]

an interesting question.the earth is not the center of the solar system,even tho this was belived for a long time,and enforced.

[Dorian Gray]

I think global climate change and plague had more to do with it.

[Fawzo]

an interesting question.the earth is not the center of the solar system,even tho this was belived for a long time,and enforced.

Yea it seems as if the Church wasn't against all scientific discoveries only those that opposed their teachings.

[Fawzo]

I think global climate change and plague had more to do with it.

Suppressing the sciences sure didn't help though. Also weren't many healers killed as witches as well. We even see signs of the restrictive nature that the Conservative Christian right place on sciences such as Stem Cell research and fighting against ideas such as Evolution in our own times.

While Europe and the rest of the world race ahead of us in research in these areas.

[Dorian Gray]

I would argue that it wasn't as much the Christian church as the it was the hygiene practices (as a tertiary cause).

The Jewish centers were not nearly as effected due to their high hygiene standards wrt to plague.

[Fawzo]

Could the sanitary conditions be attributed to the fall of Rome which also sometimes is attributed to Christianity as well?

[Dorian Gray]

The fall of roman really was based on it couldn't self sustain anymore. There is only so many colonies you can pillage before you implode.

[Zequatanil]

I would argue that it wasn't as much the Christian church as the it was the hygiene practices (as a tertiary cause).

The Jewish centers were not nearly as effected due to their high hygiene standards wrt to plague.

yes, absolutely--I think I have to agree with you --it was more the hygiene all over the world. The Church--at the time the Catholic was always on the edge of science though the people didn`t know-. Most of the discoverers --like Marco Polo, Columbus, Amerigo Vespucci, Vasco da Gama and many more were supported monetarily by very religious catholic kings and queens of Spain, Italy, Portugal and Holland.-- the Vatican had a lot to do with it, especially the popes. Some very very liberal and scientific, some were for the arts. As now--then they had huge observatories and all kinds of research into all the ancient arts, practices of alchemy and ancient mysteries-- even early medicine. Even today, the Vatican has the most powerful land observatory--they know a lot more than they want to reveal--probably much that would blow our minds.

The hygiene was the main point, water, food, microbes--even in the early 1800 was a major problem until Semmelweis came along. Every other woman died in childbirth from puerperal fever,also most died of consumption or what is pneumonia today because of living conditions not just the highly infectious diseases like the plague, smallpox, typhoid and cholera, rabies which was rampant --and then came Jenner Pasteur, Koch, Lister to name a few did their contribution through the vaccinations--. to move the world into the modern age.

The Jews always had strict laws governing hygiene as today, so they weren`t is such a bad position as the rest of the world--at the time.

As you say Fawzo--it all had to do with partly fall of many empires, not just the Roman, but Greek, Persian and Egyptian and a few before--however, they as most empires reach their Zenith and slip back, they cannot hold onto the power. Like this today--always was and is.

peace,

S

Edited July 10, 2012 by sarkany

[Zequatanil]

The fall of roman really was based on it couldn't self sustain anymore. There is only so many colonies you can pillage before you implode.

Yes-- I didn`t see your post!!

S

[panpareil]

The fall of roman really was based on it couldn't self sustain anymore. There is only so many colonies you can pillage before you implode.

For the Romans conquest was used like taxation is today. And they imploded for the same reason our current nations will implode if they do not curb their spending. The Romans did not live within their means.

As to causes of the post-imperial society that some call the dark ages, I think the Roman Church saved and preserved the remnants of Rome. They archived ancient texts, founded the oldest universities, and held key positions in the reestablishment of government.

[Zequatanil]

As to causes of the post-imperial society that some call the dark ages, I think the Roman Church saved and preserved the remnants of Rome. They archived ancient texts, founded the oldest universities, and held key positions in the reestablishment of government.

During those times only the clergy could read and write--the monasteries were where all the books were written, thus all wisdom science and teachings of the times were though the church.--It was through the early church that the age of enlightenment began.

S

[Dorian Gray]

Not to mention it was the church that sponsored many of the great artist of the renaissance following the dark ages.

[Brother Kaman]

The Catholic Kings and Queens who sponsored the explorers did not do so for the advancement of anything but their own wealth. That includes the Vatican as it was as much or more a political entity in those times as it was a religious one.

[Zequatanil]

The Catholic Kings and Queens who sponsored the explorers did not do so for the advancement of anything but their own wealth. That includes the Vatican as it was as much or more a political entity in those times as it was a religious one.

True of course--but because of that advances were made. All is and was money--isn`t it today?

peace,

S

Edited July 10, 2012 by sarkany

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Nobody has mentioned antisemitism. In 1492, the Jews of Spain were given a choice. They could become Catholic or they could leave Spain. So many Jews converted -- on the surface -- that the Church became suspicious of their sincerity. This was the start of the Inquisition.

Nothing quite like spreading the "Love of Christ" to make the world a better place.

While we are at it -- ask any Wiccan about the "Burning Times."

Oops, I didn't mention the Crusaders. While they were busy killing Jews and Muslims; they sacked Constantinople -- which was Christian.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dorian Gray]

I think you mean pagans, since Wicca (while based on earlier faiths) didn't exist until MUCH later. On the topic of the Jews in Spain, being a undercover Jew was a popular charge, even for men that would later become Pope like Alexander VI (Rodigo Borja).

[panpareil]

The Catholic Kings and Queens who sponsored the explorers did not do so for the advancement of anything but their own wealth. That includes the Vatican as it was as much or more a political entity in those times as it was a religious one.

Good for them. And apparently good for us as well.

Nobody has mentioned antisemitism. In 1492, the Jews of Spain were given a choice. They could become Catholic or they could leave Spain. So many Jews converted -- on the surface -- that the Church became suspicious of their sincerity. This was the start of the Inquisition.

Nothing quite like spreading the "Love of Christ" to make the world a better place.

While we are at it -- ask any Wiccan about the "Burning Times."

Oops, I didn't mention the Crusaders. While they were busy killing Jews and Muslims; they sacked Constantinople -- which was Christian.

Yeah, no one else would do that. Oh wait, the Pagans and the Muslims did it first didn't they. Conversion by the sword, crucifixion, fed to the lions, the sack of Jerusalem, the scattering of the Jews... I guess the Christians didn't invent any of that stuff after all. They were just good learners.

And while we are at it, they did nothing in the Americas that was not done before by the previous inhabitants either.

What they did do that is different was create a world where we are now free to be outraged by such actions.

[Brother Kaman]

Good for them. And apparently good for us as well.

Yeah, no one else would do that. Oh wait, the Pagans and the Muslims did it first didn't they. Conversion by the sword, crucifixion, fed to the lions, the sack of Jerusalem, the scattering of the Jews... I guess the Christians didn't invent any of that stuff after all. They were just good learners.

And while we are at it, they did nothing in the Americas that was not done before by the previous inhabitants either.

What they did do that is different was create a world where we are now free to be outraged by such actions.

I suppose as long as the end justifies the means it is all good. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

[Fawzo]

No one taught the Christian Nation how to drop an A-bomb on someone