Were Moses And Joshua Heros Or War Criminals?

[Ex Nihilo]

Rough.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

It is my belief in a modern court of law that the actions of Moses and Joshua would have them sitting in a courtroom being tried and convicted of war crimes.

Their actions occurred as Rev Rainbow pointed out in another place, time and cultural setting. To many they are seen as heroes.

Moral relativism seems to come into play here as we become more sophisticated and our moral outlook changes.

My question though is does God's Morals ever change and how could he allow his people to behave so?

Of course. The charge would be "ethnic cleansing" or Crimes against humanity.

[Dan56]

God certainly had no problems killing children during the flood, the first born of Egypt, the kids at Sodom and Gomorrah, the little ones Joshua slayed and the 42 rend to pieces by she bears for mocking Elisha just to name a few. Since when does God condemn human sacrifice, he loves it...remember Jesus.

I agree that God kills, and he commanded his people to kill, but God forbids human sacrifice, he never condoned it and considers it an abomination (Jeremiah 32:35). Jesus voluntarily laid down his life for others; "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).

[Fawzo]

I agree that God kills, and he commanded his people to kill, but God forbids human sacrifice, he never condoned it and considers it an abomination (Jeremiah 32:35). Jesus voluntarily laid down his life for others; "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).

Yeshua's death was an abomination unto God.....think again.......he also considers it such an abomination that he has the gall to tempt Abraham to do the same thing with his child and stands by and allows Jepthah to make smores out of the young lady.

I do agree though their are scriptures where he does speak against it, for me it is just more stuff to heap on the mountainous pile of contradictions in the Bible.

[Fawzo]

Of course. The charge would be "ethnic cleansing" or Crimes against humanity.

Exactly what I believe as well. The only way one could view them as heroes is if one has no regard for life. Even though I am not a vegan the slaughter of all those animals was just as egregious and barbaric.

They were not heroes in my eyes. The men who gave their lives to protect their land and families from destruction and rape from this band of displaced barbarians were the real heroes in the story.

It would shame me to worship any deity who would give forth such commands. The One whom I serve that bears all, endures and never fails anyone has it not in his nature to do such. Only ignorant men who have become so dense as to forget their true nature would command and do such. It is the writing of such men that we see in these BIblical Instances and not the writing of any sophisticated deity I DO BELIEVE and know in my heart of hearts.

It is the fearful hearts of men exhibited in the writing of the Bible that has us owning slaves, murdering our non-believing neighbor and discriminating against one another in all forms of unsophisticated behaviors.

Does God inspire men to create and write and sing and dance and evolve in love and understanding, surely he does in my mind. Did he inspire men to kill their brothers and rape their women and enslave their children, of course not. I recognize the fearful hand that penned such stories and the ego of man looking through a glass DARKLY that is clearly the culprit.

Just my opinion and personal observations, take them for what they are worth. Just as when one approaches any Sacred Text, the words only have the meaning that you give to them. One mans Holy Bible is another mans rubbish.

[Zequatanil]

Fawzo--

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this!!--I doubt if any God would embrace or direct killing of its own creation. He would simply do it Himself if He saw fit.

Do read some Talmud quotes about killing and how to treat anyone who is not a Jew, including children of three years and a day--most interesting, frightening to say the least--and they are the chosen ones? By what God? Not by my God. I won`t go into it, for it is not a debatable point and I do not want to offend the good Rabbi.

And I still stand by the fact of difference about the New and Old testament--Jeshua pointed very accurately to the facts of their delusion. Simply my personal opinion also.

blessings and peace ,

S

Edited June 9, 2012 by sarkany

[Zequatanil]

Of course. The charge would be "ethnic cleansing" or Crimes against humanity.

It is exactly what we call it today.

peace,

S

[Fawzo]

Fawzo--

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this!!--I doubt if any God would embrace or direct killing of its own creation. He would simply do it Himself if He saw fit.

Do read some Talmud quotes about killing and how to treat anyone who is not a Jew, including children of three years and a day--most interesting, frightening to say the least--and they are the chosen ones? By what God? Not by my God. I won`t go into it, for it is not a debatable point and I do not want to offend the good Rabbi.

And I still stand by the fact of difference about the New and Old testament--Jeshua pointed very accurately to the facts of their delusion. Simply my personal opinion also.

blessings and peace ,

S

I care a lot about quite of the few people here like they are my family. Two of those who I know my opinions rile at times and I respect deeply are RevRainbow and RabbiO.

My quest is not to prove or disprove whether or not their G_d is real, but to convey that what I have experienced from personal experiences is that God is so much more sophisticated and loving then what their religious texts describe G_d to be. I also actually believe that they both have experienced the same thing themselves personally.

I too think the whole message of Yeshua got twisted in the politics. Both he and the John the Baptists were offering redemption of sins for free without the need of killing any of God's innocent creations in the process, simply by Symbolically Baptizing people in water. This would have overhauled the whole Temple System and the guilt complex it had created.

He taught forgive others as God has forgiven you. If you have ought against a brother get your mind right because to do so means you don't recognize the Christ in others and to not to forgive them means you have ought against God himself and since you are both extensions of God that ought you are projecting onto God projects non-forgiveness into your mindset focus as well.

Of course he had it dumbed down for the sophistication level of the general masses, and instead of the church understanding completely what he was trying to convey, they were steeped in the whole sacrificial mindset being of Hebrew descent and merely substituted Yeshua as the ultimate Sacrifice to replace all others and faith in this deed became the basis for Faith in God.

It was a step and maybe even a necessary step in the right direction away from the whole sacrificlal, sin, death and guilt mindset but with our expanded awareness of our Universe and the interconnectedness of all things including our thoughts and actions, it is time we Bronze those Bronze Age Baby Shoes and Put on some Nikes.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Fawzo

[Hyper Real]

Do read some Talmud quotes about killing and how to treat anyone who is not a Jew, including children of three years and a day--most interesting, frightening to say the least--and they are the chosen ones? By what God? Not by my God.

Yes the Talmud is loaded with statements I find very offensive.

Michael Hoffmann II wrote a book with many controversial Talmud references:

In this scholarly and deeply considered work, the author documents his provocative thesis that Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament, but the newly formalized belief system of the Pharisees, which arose in Babylon with the commitment of the formerly oral “tradition of the elders” to writing, in the wake of the crucifixion of Israel’s Messiah and the destruction of the Temple.

Basing his findings on authoritative Judaic sources, Hoffman demonstrates that Judaism is a man-made religion of tradition and superstition, which represents the institutionalized nullification of Biblical law and doctrine.

Liberating the reader from the accumulated shackles of decades of misinformation, this book shows that Judaism’s God is not the God of Israel, but the strange gods of Talmud and Kabbalah, and the racial self-worship they inculcate.

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0970378408

Edited June 9, 2012 by Hyper Real

[Fawzo]

Yes the Talmud is loaded with statements I find very offensive.

Michael Hoffmann II wrote a book with many controversial Talmud references:

In this scholarly and deeply considered work, the author documents his provocative thesis that Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament, but the newly formalized belief system of the Pharisees, which arose in Babylon with the commitment of the formerly oral “tradition of the elders” to writing, in the wake of the crucifixion of Israel’s Messiah and the destruction of the Temple.

Basing his findings on authoritative Judaic sources, Hoffman demonstrates that Judaism is a man-made religion of tradition and superstition, which represents the institutionalized nullification of Biblical law and doctrine.

Liberating the reader from the accumulated shackles of decades of misinformation, this book shows that Judaism’s God is not the God of Israel, but the strange gods of Talmud and Kabbalah, and the racial self-worship they inculcate.

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0970378408

Thanks Hyper Real I'll have to get a copy of that. I'm interested in knowing if you read that book prior to your conversion?

[Hyper Real]

Thanks Hyper Real I'll have to get a copy of that. I'm interested in knowing if you read that book prior to your conversion?

I read that book once, more than a decade ago.

I do not think it is a particularly good book by the way and certainly not very scholarly.

But in my opinion the Talmud quotes in that book are not lies the Talmud does list those things.

[RabbiO]

Thanks Hyper Real I'll have to get a copy of that. I'm interested in knowing if you read that book prior to your conversion?

Do a little research on who MIchael Hoffman is and what he stands for before you decide to buy the book.

[Fawzo]

Do a little research on who MIchael Hoffman is and what he stands for before you decide to buy the book.

Thanks for the heads up my friend! I just read on Wikipedia that the guy is an Holocaust denier.

One interesting note there was this though ...."Hoffman supports the Karaites, a Jewish sect who reject the Talmud, as "a group which, historically, has been most hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate."^[3] According to the back cover of Judaism Discovered, Hoffman contends that Orthodox Judaism has more in common with Babylonian paganism than Israelite Biblicism

The idea of Jews who reject the Talmud blows my mind. Isn't that like leopards rejecting their spots lol

[Ex Nihilo]

Or like Christians who reject the bible. Lol

Edited June 10, 2012 by Rev'd Rattlesnake

[Fawzo]

Or like Christians who reject the bible. Lol

From my standpoint being Christlike and accepting the Bible are two totally different beasts. Marcion who was the first known person to ever create a Canonical lists of Christian Writings, despised the Old Testament and anything associated with it.

Wikipedia Notes:

Marcion rejected the theology of the Old Testament entirely and regarded the God depicted there as an inferior Being. He claimed that the theology of the Old Testament was incompatible with the teaching of Jesus regarding God and morality. Marcion believed that Jesus had come to liberate mankind from the authority of the God of the Old Testament and to reveal the superior God of goodness and mercy whom he called the Father. Paul and Luke were the only Christian authors to find favour with Marcion, though his versions of these differed from those later accepted by mainstream Christianity.

Marcion created a canon, a definite group of books which he regarded as fully authoritative, displacing all others. These comprised ten of the Pauline epistles (without the Pastorals and Hebrews) and Luke's Gospel. It is uncertain whether he edited these books, purging them of what did not accord with his views, or that his versions represented a separate textual tradition.^[27]

Marcion's gospel, called simply the Gospel of the Lord, differed from the Gospel of Luke by lacking any passages that connected Jesus with the Old Testament. He believed that the god of Israel, who gave the Torah to the Israelites, was an entirely different god from the Supreme God who sent Jesus and inspired the New Testament.

Marcion termed his collection of Pauline epistles the Apostolikon. These also differed from the versions accepted by later Christian Orthodoxy.

In addition to his Gospel and Apostolikon, he wrote a text called the Antithesis which contrasted the New Testament view of God and morality with the Old Testament view of God and morality, see also Expounding of the Law#Antithesis of the Law.

Marcion's canon and theology were rejected as heretical by the early church; however, he forced other Christians to consider which texts were canonical and why. He spread his beliefs widely; they became known as Marcionism. In the introduction to his book "Early Christian Writings", Henry Wace stated: “ A modern divine… could not refuse to discuss the question raised by Marcion, whether there is such opposition between different parts of what he regards as the word of God, that all cannot come from the same author.^[28]

[Ex Nihilo]

From my standpoint being Christlike and accepting the Bible are two totally different beasts. Marcion who was the first known person to ever create a Canonical lists of Christian Writings, despised the Old Testament and anything associated with it.

Wikipedia Notes:

Marcion rejected the theology of the Old Testament entirely and regarded the God depicted there as an inferior Being. He claimed that the theology of the Old Testament was incompatible with the teaching of Jesus regarding God and morality. Marcion believed that Jesus had come to liberate mankind from the authority of the God of the Old Testament and to reveal the superior God of goodness and mercy whom he called the Father. Paul and Luke were the only Christian authors to find favour with Marcion, though his versions of these differed from those later accepted by mainstream Christianity.

Marcion created a canon, a definite group of books which he regarded as fully authoritative, displacing all others. These comprised ten of the Pauline epistles (without the Pastorals and Hebrews) and Luke's Gospel. It is uncertain whether he edited these books, purging them of what did not accord with his views, or that his versions represented a separate textual tradition.^[27]

Marcion's gospel, called simply the Gospel of the Lord, differed from the Gospel of Luke by lacking any passages that connected Jesus with the Old Testament. He believed that the god of Israel, who gave the Torah to the Israelites, was an entirely different god from the Supreme God who sent Jesus and inspired the New Testament.

Marcion termed his collection of Pauline epistles the Apostolikon. These also differed from the versions accepted by later Christian Orthodoxy.

In addition to his Gospel and Apostolikon, he wrote a text called the Antithesis which contrasted the New Testament view of God and morality with the Old Testament view of God and morality, see also Expounding of the Law#Antithesis of the Law.

Marcion's canon and theology were rejected as heretical by the early church; however, he forced other Christians to consider which texts were canonical and why. He spread his beliefs widely; they became known as Marcionism. In the introduction to his book "Early Christian Writings", Henry Wace stated: “ A modern divine… could not refuse to discuss the question raised by Marcion, whether there is such opposition between different parts of what he regards as the word of God, that all cannot come from the same author.^[28]

To orthodox christianity, Marcion is a heretic, declared so in 144 AD, for his rejection fo the OT and mutilation of the NT. Why would his opinion of the bible have any weight with me?

[Dorian Gray]

I am sure that Marcion believed he was a Christian, and he was infact a Christian who rejected much of the bible.

[Ex Nihilo]

People can be very sincere in their beliefs and be very sincerely wrong.

[Fawzo]

People can be very sincere in their beliefs and be very sincerely wrong.

Have you ever said that in front of a mirror

[Ex Nihilo]

Have you ever said that in front of a mirror

No mostly I say, "hello handsome" lol. Potbellies are the new black Edited June 10, 2012 by Rev'd Rattlesnake