Liberal Christianity

[Pete]

A lot of children never get to feel what love and security means. How could they ever comprehend what the love and security of God is unless they experience God directly. How coud they be condemned. It's like punishing a blind man with one leg for not finishing a race.

Exactly. I prayed too and believe God and Jesus are more merciful than the bible shows God to be. I wish I could stop things like this and it happening to people, but for many in this world, Hell is now (IMO).

It is heart wrenching. I hope people will understand why I personally can accept a liberal position, but I would struggle with a more conservative one.

NB// I am talking form a personal position here and not from a one that is saying conservatives should have no right to exist.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

Exactly. I prayed too and believe God and Jesus are more merciful than the bible shows God to be. I wish I could stop things like this and it happening to people, but for many in this world, Hell is now (IMO).

It is heart wrenching. I hope people will understand why I personally can accept a liberal position, but I would struggle with a more conservative one.

NB// I am talking form a personal position here and not from a one that is saying conservatives should have no right to exist.

I can understand your position somewhat, Pete, and I would like to comment.

I do not think it is correct to equate liberalism with loving kindness and conservatism with being judgmental or condemning.

You are understanding the principle of requiring mercy rather than sacrifice, as God desires, which I gather from two points of the story. The first point is that the caregiver prayed for God's mercy. IMO, an unselfish prayer from a "righteous" personal avails much. Second, you point out it is unknown what Ken believed and "not Likely" that he called upon God. Well, it is just possible that he did call on God because of those prayers. We cannot judge Ken because only God knew his heart. How many times, perhaps, in the darkness, did Ken call out in tears, perhaps even cursing God, wanting to be "saved" from this lifestyle? We just dont know.

Your unspoken suggestion is that conservatives would label Ken a lost cause, and that would not be totally accurate. There is always the interjection of the word "some." Some may, some may not. Both cases are judgmental for the answer should be, "I don't know." All else is opinion.

My encouragement to you is not to box yourself in with labels such as liberalism. I am a fundamentalist, by label, and yet, strangely enough, not in the same manner as those who also claim that title. Do you see what I mean? YOU may call me a liberal, but I do not see myself as such. Is it possible for one to be a liberal fundamentalist? Should we judge by words or actions, or perhaps, neither?

Our meaning of the words is in our definition. You do not have to label yourself anything in order to express love, mercy and forgiveness, other than a child of the Almighty God. Remember, in Christ, there is no Greek or Roman, no male or female and, I might add, no conservative or liberal. We are one in the Lord. Being one in the Spirit should be our position. Peace.

[Fawzo]

Our meaning of the words is in our definition. You do not have to label yourself anything in order to express love, mercy and forgiveness, other than a child of the Almighty God. Remember, in Christ, there is no Greek or Roman, no male or female and, I might add, no conservative or liberal. We are one in the Lord. Being one in the Spirit should be our position. Peace.

In Christ there is no male or female and yet it seems that God is more than just a little partial to one sex in humans over the other.

This always mystifies me.

[Pete]

I can understand your position somewhat, Pete, and I would like to comment.

I do not think it is correct to equate liberalism with loving kindness and conservatism with being judgmental or condemning.

You are understanding the principle of requiring mercy rather than sacrifice, as God desires, which I gather from two points of the story. The first point is that the caregiver prayed for God's mercy. IMO, an unselfish prayer from a "righteous" personal avails much. Second, you point out it is unknown what Ken believed and "not Likely" that he called upon God. Well, it is just possible that he did call on God because of those prayers. We cannot judge Ken because only God knew his heart. How many times, perhaps, in the darkness, did Ken call out in tears, perhaps even cursing God, wanting to be "saved" from this lifestyle? We just dont know.

Your unspoken suggestion is that conservatives would label Ken a lost cause, and that would not be totally accurate. There is always the interjection of the word "some." Some may, some may not. Both cases are judgmental for the answer should be, "I don't know." All else is opinion.

My encouragement to you is not to box yourself in with labels such as liberalism. I am a fundamentalist, by label, and yet, strangely enough, not in the same manner as those who also claim that title. Do you see what I mean? YOU may call me a liberal, but I do not see myself as such. Is it possible for one to be a liberal fundamentalist? Should we judge by words or actions, or perhaps, neither?

Our meaning of the words is in our definition. You do not have to label yourself anything in order to express love, mercy and forgiveness, other than a child of the Almighty God. Remember, in Christ, there is no Greek or Roman, no male or female and, I might add, no conservative or liberal. We are one in the Lord. Being one in the Spirit should be our position. Peace.

Most conservatives will argue that the bible is the word of God. I am not saying that fundamentalist/conservatives cannot understand the terrible situation of Ken and would not pray also. True, we do not know if he did call out to God, but lets keep the scenario as I described. as I did not alter Coolhand's question. I also did not say that conservatives do not have the right to exist. Yet, I also do not get many conservatives rushing in at the moment to tell me that the God of their bible would forgive Ken should he never have called on God.

As for your quote from Galatians, I do not see its relevance here. I do not say that conservatives are not Christians, even if I do not follow many of their arguments. I respect you Rev Rainbow but changing the scenario in order to answer my question is not answering the question (IMO). It is answering a different one.

Labels exist, even if I or you do not like it.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090515113633AAN7V0t

Edited January 11, 2010 by Pete

[Coolhand]

Back to the topic of Liberal Christianity and a question in return.

The story and person is fictional but the examples I give are sadly not unusual.

Ken's mother was an addict and had to give up looking after him from a very young age (5yrs). He was cared for in a home where he was reported to have been sexually abused many times. He ran away and lived on the streets as soon after his entry in to his teens and took to taking Heroin, and crack. His friends on the street gradually died from various drug problems they had until he was alone and friendless. He was very street wise and knew how to pull of a scam and was a petty thief, which made him unpopular and also got him in prison at times. Trusting other people was a big issue for him and so he always kept them at an emotional distance. Life was what ever he could get and it mattered little who it came from. In his late teens he believed he was going to die as all his friends had done. He suffered much emotionally trauma but was difficult to help, because he was so independently minded and would not allow other people into his life. One night, he took an overdose. He possibly wanted to be found and rescued but unfortunately those he knew were late that night.

We have no record of Ken ever believing in a God or even talking about a faith.

His carer prayed for him and asked God to have mercy on Ken.

As it is likely Ken did not call on Jesus' did she pray in vain and does Ken remain condemned by God as he had in this life?

As I see it, her prayer for mercy was heard and answered. To what degree is according to her faith.

As I see it we have no basis so far with the information given to assume that Ken was condemned by God to start with; much less if he remained condemned by God. To me it seems wrong to assume Ken is or was condemned by at all. In fact we have no reason all to assume that Ken in anywhere else but with Jesus praying for us.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Coolhand

[Pete]

As I see it, her prayer for mercy was heard and answered. To what degree is according to her faith.

As I see it we have no basis so far with the information given to assume that Ken was condemned by God to start with; much less if he remained condemned by God. To me it seems wrong to assume Ken is or was condemned by at all. In fact we have no reason all to assume that Ken in anywhere else but with Jesus praying for us.

First part, Can you inform me of a part of the bible that says the prayers of a believer can save a none believer?

Second part, I see the same issue as Rev Rainbow did. Instead of answering the question straight on, one has taken it to a new question of your own chosing. Please lets stick with the scenerio that he had not called out to God. I answered your question without deviation.

[Coolhand]

First part, Can you inform me of a part of the bible that says the prayers of a believer can save a none believer?

Second part, I see the same issue as Rev Rainbow did. Instead of answering the question straight on, one has taken it to a new question of your own chosing. Please lets stick with the scenerio that he had not called out to God. I answered your question without deviation.

First Part:

I don't think there is a Bible verse that says the prayers of a believer can save a non-believer; and I am not say that is possible. I will say you are being judgemental if you claim you know the true condition of Ken's heart and his relationship with God; or anyone elses for that matter, bro.

Second Part:

I'm not really sure what you think I said. Instead telling me I have distorted your question, why don't you tell me where and how you think I distorted your question.

[Fawzo]

First Part:

I don't think there is a Bible verse that says the prayers of a believer can save a non-believer; and I am not say that is possible.

I would think the story of the rich man begging Abraham to allow the beggar Lazarus to even give him water or help save his 5 brothers from the torments of Hell would be a good argument against the possibility of another interceding. But then again in the NT you have Yeshua being able to intercede for everyone on the planet?

[Coolhand]

I would think the story of the rich man begging Abraham to allow the beggar Lazarus to even give him water or help save his 5 brothers from the torments of Hell would be a good argument against the possibility of another interceding. But then again in the NT you have Yeshua being able to intercede for everyone on the planet?

One of the Maccabees tells where Judas made atonement for the dead, and Paul also makes a statement that is kind of vauge refering to baptism for the dead; don't forget.

[Brother Michael Sky]

Lot? he didn't exactly pray for the city..... and he had limited success..... but the Lord did entertain saving the majority for the minority.... ( like a vulcan... ).... doesn't that sort of set a precedent??

Edited January 12, 2010 by Brother Michael Sky

[RevRainbow]

Well, there is a verse in the NT where one of the Philippian guards asked, "What must I do to be saved?" and Paul and Silas answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved AND your house." Now that didnt mean the guard's domicile but rather his household, all that were under his care (wife, kids, servants). How that is possible is not made known, or whether it is all at the same time or one by one, but it is a verse which can be claimed by a beleiver. So, IMO, if that caregiver prayed, it is possible Ken was thus sanctified by her faith. Paul also points out in the epistles that a beleiving husband sanctifies his wife and vice-versa.

[Fawzo]

Good points guys. I knew there had to be more I just couldn't rattle any out of my head. Something is urging me that there is even a better example in the NT somewhere.

[Dan56]

As it is likely Ken did not call on Jesus' did she pray in vain and does Ken remain condemned by God as he had in this life?

I don't think Ken was condemned by God in this life, because he chose what he chose and did what he did. Only God knows and judges the heart, but assuming Ken never sought, prayed, or called upon Jesus, his future afterlife would appear grim. If Ken never had the chance to hear the Truth, then I believe he would be given that opportunity in the millennium when God's Word will be taught. I believe we are sanctified by Christ, and not the prayers of others. Why pray for the dead? Once the race is run, its over.

[Pete]

First Part:

I don't think there is a Bible verse that says the prayers of a believer can save a non-believer; and I am not say that is possible. I will say you are being judgemental if you claim you know the true condition of Ken's heart and his relationship with God; or anyone elses for that matter, bro.

Second Part:

I'm not really sure what you think I said. Instead telling me I have distorted your question, why don't you tell me where and how you think I distorted your question.

First part:- it is my scenario of a fictional character and therefore I have placed no judgement upon anyone, except to say that some in this world suffer lives that are truly miserable and carry scares that we can only try to imagine.

The situation which it seems only Dan (IMO) has spoken about and is according to the bible:-

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:4-5)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." -1 John 5:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -Romans 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" -Romans 10:13-14

But it seems not everyone:-

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So I have described a person who had little hope in this life and it would seem according the bible Ken has little hope there.

Second part:-

As I see it again only Dan has answered the question straight on and I admit I respect him for that. I did not ask that the question be debated. I asked a question in order to get an answer.

All this does points to my impression of the bible description of God as likely to be very unfair to someone like Ken .

The question I have is do we believe in a loving God or not.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

I dunno, Pete, it seems like you only accept an answer that you are looking for..and that, of course would be from a conservative who responds as you think a conservative should respond (and I am not saying Dan is wrong - as a matter of fact he is as correct as Cool and myself). If your "fictional" Ken had an unforgiving heart, hated his parents and society, then his heart was hardened and, IMO, he will be judged accordingly. To give him the benefit of the doubt, I suggested the prayers of the faithful DO have an effect on the hearts of others (by God, through Christ). That is not a liberal view, but one based on scripture.

[Pete]

I dunno, Pete, it seems like you only accept an answer that you are looking for..and that, of course would be from a conservative who responds as you think a conservative should respond (and I am not saying Dan is wrong - as a matter of fact he is as correct as Cool and myself). If your "fictional" Ken had an unforgiving heart, hated his parents and society, then his heart was hardened and, IMO, he will be judged accordingly. To give him the benefit of the doubt, I suggested the prayers of the faithful DO have an effect on the hearts of others (by God, through Christ). That is not a liberal view, but one based on scripture.

You mean I should only ask questions I do not want an answer for?

I also bring to the point that you were not so critical of Coolhand's question. I am sure he did not want to know the answer to it and he was just putting us to the test. However, we played that out but in my turn I get criticism.

I do not doubt the affect of prayer but we are talking about someone (in the scenario) that is already dead. If prayers affects the out come as to whether a dead person is saved or not then I guess we should not be just quoting scripture to find out who is saved but encouraging everyone with faith to pray for everyone so that there is none passed over. That would seem the loving thing to do (IMO).

and something I actually do.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

No, what I meant was you should not just accept an answer you were expecting but also consider those answers that differ rather than rejecting them.

I personally do not believe in praying for the dead. That does not make me right and, if I am wrong, then there are a lot of dead people who will be angry with me. Praying for the dead is a Catholic (for one example) belief within Christianity. I was brought up to pray for the "poor souls" in Purgatory and even offer my afflictions as a sacrifice for them to help shorten their stay. Most Catholics that I knew/know, do not consider themselves evil enough for hell, but will spend "some time" in Purgatory and believe if they have prayer from the living, they can obtain an "early release." This concept is no longer believable to me.

So, IMO only, if the caregiver prayed for Ken ONLY after he died, I don't believe it helped. I was under the impression that the caregiver had been praying for Ken also while he was alive, I apologize for not entirely understanding the scenario. I feel sorry for Ken if, during his whole life, there was not someone praying for him or expressing the love of God to him and, also that he did not seek God in his own heart.

God is not unfair. I leave it at that for now.

PS: I do admit to asking God, after someone I knew well and had prayed for, had passed away, to have mercy on them, yes, even though I say I do not believe in prayer for the dead, but I do not offer continual prayer for them.

Edited January 12, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Coolhand]

First part:- it is my scenario of a fictional character and therefore I have placed no judgement upon anyone, except to say that some in this world suffer lives that are truly miserable and carry scares that we can only try to imagine.

The situation which it seems only Dan (IMO) has spoken about and is according to the bible:-

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:4-5)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." -1 John 5:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -Romans 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" -Romans 10:13-14

But it seems not everyone:-

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

So I have described a person who had little hope in this life and it would seem according the bible Ken has little hope there.

Second part:-

As I see it again only Dan has answered the question straight on and I admit I respect him for that. I did not ask that the question be debated. I asked a question in order to get an answer.

All this does points to my impression of the bible description of God as likely to be very unfair to someone like Ken .

The question I have is do we believe in a loving God or not.

Maybe I missed your point; are you suggesting that Ken here has rejected every attempt God has made to establish a relationship with him, and that Ken died rejecting God? Are you now suggesting that Ken rejected the revelation that God had given him? Are you suggesting that Ken at some point has flat out rejected God in his life? If you are NOT suggesting this then you have no basis for accusing some of us of tweaking your question. There is not one detail in your hypothecical that would lead me to believe Ken was condemned by God because you didn't mention anything that God would condemn him for. It appears you are trying to force everyone into an assumption that you have that was not given in your senario.

Pete, you are shaking Dan's hand here and at the same time giving him two black eyes. Dan has not said anything wrong I will agree, yet you are using his comments to show that he has a less complete understanding of God than you claim to have, you are using his comments to show that the Bible is unreliable AGAIN because of YOUR misunderstanding and misuse of it, and you are attempting to show us that you have the most complete understanding of God and are more honest than what you consider to be conservsative Christians. Not a good liberal and conservative contrast Pete.

Regardless of the distraction of the background information, if your intended question was: "Do people who reject God go to heaven?" Then my answer would be no. Whether there was sin in Ken's life at the time he died that he did not repent of is irrelevant, his relationship with God (or lack of) is the issue.

[RevRainbow]

Regardless of the distraction of the background information, if your intended question was: "Do people who reject God go to heaven?" Then my answer would be no. Whether there was sin in Ken's life at the time he died that he did not repent of is irrelevant, his relationship with God (or lack of) is the issue.

A good point, Cool. The Spirit of God is at work in the world convicting hearts of the existence of the Almighty, so we are without excuse. I agree with your entire statement which I quoted above.

[nestingwave]

First part:- it is my scenario of a fictional character and therefore I have placed no judgement upon anyone, except to say that some in this world suffer lives that are truly miserable and carry scares that we can only try to imagine.

The situation which it seems only Dan (IMO) has spoken about and is according to the bible:-

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:4-5)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." -1 John 5:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -Romans 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" -Romans 10:13-14

But it seems not everyone:-

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Saying "Lord, Lord" is not "calling upon the name of the Lord at all." Saying "Lord, Lord" is just lips wagging. Calling upon the name of the Lord does not mean mouthing the word "Jesus." Oh, I realize that a part of the present Christian doctrine is that when a person says "Jesus Jesus" it is an indication that they are 'saved" from the flames of eternal perdition. However, here is something that must be considered:

Exodus 3: 14---And God said unto Moses I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israrel, The LORD GOD of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever and this is my memorial to all generations. (that's "forever" not temporary)

The "name" of Almighty God Our Father is.... according to the Bible.... I AM THAT I AM.

What does this mean?

I AM THAT I AM is the active and present form of the verb TO BE. The name of Almighty God FOREVER (not temporary) is PURE BEING. That means Almighty God is everywhere in every time and every space. Almighty God is not only omnicient and omnipotent--Almighty God is also.... OMNIPRESENT. That is, everywhere and everyplace all the time. BEING ITSELF. I AM. This is the name of Almighty God and also the name of the son-of-man and also the name of the sons of God and also the name of the worst scoundrel on earth, although he does not know it. He thinks he is a self unto himself. He does not see that ALL is totally INTERCONNECTED in the ONE SELF-- Almighty God.

It is YOUR true "Self." Your ONLY true Self. Your "Higher Self" is one way to put it.

Somebody asks you what your name is and you say, "I am....."

I am... who? Almighty God says simply I AM THAT I AM. No more is needed. Almighty God says that so you will understand that he is PURE BEING with nothing added and that Revelation is sufficient. I AM (who?) IT DOESN'T MATTER. I AM THAT I AM. I am the only I there is. There is only ONE SELF. There is only ONE SOURCE and that is Almighty God I AM THAT I AM.

All the beings who think they are separate "selves" running around are living an illusion. There is only ONE.

ALMIGHTY GOD IS ONE. Jesus tried hard to tell you that in John 17. WE ARE ONE. It is a fact. It is the truth of Almighty God I AM.... THAT I AM.

So, the Hundu says "Oh, Lord Krishna." The Buddhist says, "Oh Lord Gutama." The Hopi says, "Lord Massau." The Christian says, "OH, LORD JESUS." All are "calling upon the name of the LORD --THE ONE SELF.... but only IF.... only IF.... there is consciousness of the ONE BEING of which ALL of us (without exception) are a totally interconnected part.

That means the very worst sinner, in reality, is already a part of this ONLY ONE----just exactly the same as you are. No difference--except for ONE THING----the AWARENESS of that ONENESS varies considerably.

And that is exactly what we are ALL learning to recognize. WE ARE ALREADY ONE and when we think we are seperate, we are in complete delusion living a lie.

This is the Revelation when all the "seals" are removed. This is the "salvation" when all the blinders are taken out of the way. WE ARE ALREADY AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.... ONE BEING.

We are ALL organically, emotionally, mentally, genetically, nuerologically ONE. It is all a HUGE COMPASSIONATE LOVING INTELLIGENT ENERGY FIELD in which we all "live, move and have our BEING."

So, why did Paul say that "Jesus" was the "name above all names?" This has led many Christian to the false doctrine that those who do not mouth the word "Jesus" are not "saved." Absolute nonsense in my view---religiousity totally void of spirituality.

Because the conscious son-of God, whether it be Krishna, Massau, Buddha, or YOU or I is subsumed by the conscious awareness of the ONE BEING in which we live, move and have our BEING.

Therefore, we no longer feel SEPARATE from that awrful sinner, but recognize that sinner as OURSELVES. We can then "love our neighbor AS OURSELF."

Get it?

Then, when we deal with "others" we do so as dealing with the ONE not as dealing with some kind of "other" strange entity outside of the ONE. There is no entity "outside" of the ONE BEING. There is only lack of awareness of it.

So, of course, first and foremost, WE have to have that realization.

If all our praying, preaching, healing, sharing, witnessing, testifying is moving toward this realization (Revelation) of Almighty God as OUR FATHER THE ONE BEING OF ALL THAT IS, then our living testimony will become EFFECTIVE to heal others.

The whole idea of "save" begs the question. "SAVED FROM WHAT?" Saved from eternal torment in the flames of hell-fire? SAVED from making mistakes? SAVED from immoral behavior? SAVED from the wrath of Almighty God? The ONLY salvation is the Revelation of the ONENESS of ALMIGHTY GOD and our portion in that ONENESS. This gives us great respect for ourself... and for the entire web-of-life. The entire web-of-life is totally interconnected in the ONE. It gives us compassion for every creature and every human being.

It brings "Joy Unspeakable and FULL OF GLORY" as torrents of living water flow out to all from our deepest spring, our heart of hearts..

That's why Jesus prayed to OUR FATHER in John 17 for the MOST IMPORTANT THING---- THAT WE WOULD ALL BE (aware) THAT WE ARE ONE. Our whole testimony is that the "name" of Almighty God is I AM THAT I AM.

BEING.

When we are able to REMIND another human being of that.... they begin to AWAKE to WHO and WHAT THEY ARE.

So I have described a person who had little hope in this life and it would seem according the bible Ken has little hope there.

I have to tell you Pete that this is your very limited concept about what is happening here. It is your supposition about what is happening. You think this person had "little hope in this life." What a false judgement that is. YOU standing in front of this person ARE his hope if you recognize that you are ONE with this "terrible hopeless sinner." And.... you are not the only one with that understanding. You are only looking at this situation on the surface.

Second part:-

As I see it again only Dan has answered the question straight on and I admit I respect him for that. I did not ask that the question be debated. I asked a question in order to get an answer.

All this does points to my impression of the bible description of God as likely to be very unfair to someone like Ken

No my brother. The true Bible description of God is I AM THAT I AM and that is anything but "unfair" to any being who is part of the ONE BEING which is every being.

.

The question I have is do we believe in a loving God or not.

Well, that is a question you will have to decide for yourself. Until we recognize WHO and WHAT God is, we may think Almighty God is a psychotic tyrant full of jealousy, wrath, anger, angst and insane behavior who loves to torture his creatures forever and ever. After all, "the Baibal tells me so." Yep. When you read the Bible as if it was a National Enquirer.

But once we recognize the I AM THAT I AM, we also begin to recognize WHO and WHAT... WE ARE. And we begin to see without any doubt THAT WE ARE ALL ONE.

And that includes the most terrible and hopeless appearing "sinner." Oh yes it does.

namaste