Dharma and the ET

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

So what you were wondering was if any religion on earth was cultural or species neutral and to that I have to say an emphatic NO. They are all derived from human experiences, human wonderings, human wants and desires (I can't speak to any species derived religion except for Homo sapiens). And you were maybe hoping that if there were a culturally neutral religion/belief it then would likely be cosmic or universal one (like our church), sort of a panphilosphia), with which we could debate an alien based on that commonly understood philosophy. If there is one possible cosmic panphilosophy then it has to be found in mathematics (and it's relative, music). So maybe Mozart or Sudoku will be the common ground of understanding...maybe

 

 

Over the years, I have spent a lot of time in the company of cats.  Cat mind is not Human mind.  It is different.  They have had much to teach me.  Love, resentment, jealousy, forgiveness, desire, fear.....  The full range of emotion.  Not everything that we consider Human, is really unique to us.  There are differences.  There is sameness.  Wisdom is knowing which is which.

 

[damnthing]

Anthropomorphism can be a slippery slope. I've only had dogs. There is something very unique about sharing a home with another very different species. That said, can the dog teach me anything other than 'dog'? Regardless of how much I think I understand her (and I really don't) and she can be predictable but at times, utterly dog. At no point ever is she, has she, can she ever be, human. Her experiences are her own dog experiences, grounded in her world, which intersects mine but will forever and always be unknowable to me. Pets bring comfort, some more than others, but it's mostly how we interpret their behaviors, or what we interpret their behaviors to mean. Which brings up back to the whole alien ET philosophy thing we got going on here.

[Seeker]

I think humans are quick to believe that everything has a purpose. Nonetheless, I think ET might be interested in the idea that the Universe had a purpose.

 

Other quite general ideas come to mind... life is sacred; consciousness is sacred; something meaningful remains of us after our death.

 

[damnthing]

1 hour ago, Seeker said:

I think humans are quick to believe that everything has a purpose. Nonetheless, I think ET might be interested in the idea that the Universe had a purpose.

 

Other quite general ideas come to mind... life is sacred; consciousness is sacred; something meaningful remains of us after our death.

 

I think once a species gets out into the big black beyond, they come to realize that there is no purpose, there just is.

 

And while I would hope that any species we meet does feel something akin to 'life is sacred', in the end it usually comes to mean 'my life is sacred, others maybe not so much'.

 

I think the only thing that remains of us after death, besides our physical remains, are whatever memories people have of us. I don't believe in a soul, an essence, an anything. Death is the end, life has no purpose and neither does the universe. The universe exists because it exists, the only purpose our lives have is that which we give them. And death is the end, we are no better or worse than fungus, viruses, elephants or squid. One of the more selfish things we as people do is to lock up our dead bodies in coffins and concrete, segregating it from the world. Instead it should be spread out as fertilizer, to be taken up in various plants, taken up again by consumers and again still until that final consumer itself succumbs and feeds its body to the earth and the cycle continues. I guess that may very well make me a nihilist. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, damnthing said:

Anthropomorphism can be a slippery slope. I've only had dogs. There is something very unique about sharing a home with another very different species. That said, can the dog teach me anything other than 'dog'? Regardless of how much I think I understand her (and I really don't) and she can be predictable but at times, utterly dog. At no point ever is she, has she, can she ever be, human. Her experiences are her own dog experiences, grounded in her world, which intersects mine but will forever and always be unknowable to me. Pets bring comfort, some more than others, but it's mostly how we interpret their behaviors, or what we interpret their behaviors to mean. Which brings up back to the whole alien ET philosophy thing we got going on here.

 

Basic recognition is not anthropomorphism.  Hunger, fear, pain -- these things are easy to recognize.  Other emotion is more subtle.  There is anthropomorphism.  There is blindness.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Seeker said:

I think humans are quick to believe that everything has a purpose. Nonetheless, I think ET might be interested in the idea that the Universe had a purpose.

 

Other quite general ideas come to mind... life is sacred; consciousness is sacred; something meaningful remains of us after our death.

 

 

 

I'm going to split a few hairs with you.  The sacredness of life or consciousness is a value.  Post death existence is a belief.

 

As to my own beliefs:

• I don't know that there is post death existence.
• I don't know that there is no post death existence.

 

 

[RevBogovac]

11 hours ago, damnthing said:

I think once a species gets out into the big black beyond, they come to realize that there is no purpose, there just is.

 

And while I would hope that any species we meet does feel something akin to 'life is sacred', in the end it usually comes to mean 'my life is sacred, others maybe not so much'.

 

I think the only thing that remains of us after death, besides our physical remains, are whatever memories people have of us. I don't believe in a soul, an essence, an anything. Death is the end, life has no purpose and neither does the universe. The universe exists because it exists, the only purpose our lives have is that which we give them. And death is the end, we are no better or worse than fungus, viruses, elephants or squid. One of the more selfish things we as people do is to lock up our dead bodies in coffins and concrete, segregating it from the world. Instead it should be spread out as fertilizer, to be taken up in various plants, taken up again by consumers and again still until that final consumer itself succumbs and feeds its body to the earth and the cycle continues. I guess that may very well make me a nihilist. 

 

Yes, just like the Mongolian "Air Sacrifice"...

 

Anyhow, that (realization) should actually bring us back to (the fundamental / Buddhist?) question: what's you doing? (Bringing us back in the here and now and the question if ET relates).

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Yes, just like the Mongolian "Air Sacrifice"...

 

Anyhow, that (realization) should actually bring us back to (the fundamental / Buddhist?) question: what's you doing? (Bringing us back in the here and now and the question if ET relates).

 

 

 

It's a good opening question.  I would rather begin with -- "Hello.".

 

 

[damnthing]

13 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Basic recognition is not anthropomorphism.  Hunger, fear, pain -- these things are easy to recognize.  Other emotion is more subtle.  There is anthropomorphism.  There is blindness.  

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah you're right, basic responses to certain stimuli, geez I hadn't considered that, how silly of me.

 

As soon as you start to apply human emotions to a non-human organism that's anthropomorphism, regardless of how well your cats trained you.

 

Your comment about blindness suggests you think I am incapable of differentiating between anthropomorphism and true animal emotion, or that I somehow am incapable of perceiving the subtlest of their emotion. Seems a bit pretentious to suggest such a thing, considering you have no idea of what it is I might actually know.

 

Anyway, if you feel that my responses are not what you are looking for in your various posts please let me know so I won't waste your time or mine. Because I approach these discussions from a clearly different approach (and mindset) much of what I'm trying to communicate may just go over your head. If you'd like, I'll try and break it down to something maybe a bit more cat-like

 

 

[Key]

On 3/23/2020 at 1:31 PM, damnthing said:

At this point there is no more evidence to support a god than there is to support alien life. And as yet there is no indication of anything remotely resembling near light speed propulsion/technology. And there may never be, and there in may lie the rub: so long as the laws of physics are the same throughout the universe (and most likely are) then distance is the one thing that may never be conquered. Any signals from elsewhere will already be tens, if not hundreds or thousands of light years old and any data in those signals will be little more than a confirmation of a past alien race. We may not even ever get that satisfaction, no signal, ever, from anywhere. Just us, on a planet, in a galaxy, that rose, lived and will eventually die and no one ever the wiser.

No evidence that we know of, as yet, of light speed propulsion/technology. What an alien race did accomplish it? Perhaps they have evaded our discovering them for various reasons, some as I stated before. Maybe they even have there own code like Star Trek's "prime directive", where they merely observe without contaminating primitive societies with their advanced influence. Just saying.

[damnthing]

1 hour ago, Key said:

No evidence that we know of, as yet, of light speed propulsion/technology. What an alien race did accomplish it? Perhaps they have evaded our discovering them for various reasons, some as I stated before. Maybe they even have there own code like Star Trek's "prime directive", where they merely observe without contaminating primitive societies with their advanced influence. Just saying.

Exactly what I said. We can speculate and theorize any number of scenarios, it's cool to believe that aliens can and/or have visited but, like god, there is no evidence, no proof to support they exist.

 

To go further is to insist that aliens have to be fairly similar to us, or similar enough that we could debate philosophies and religions. In essence it presupposes little if any significant differences between humans and the alien race with whom we will good naturedly debate.

 

All one can really do is basically argue both sides, our side and that of the alien because there is no way to know, understand or speculate just how different an alien mind could be so instead, presuppose the alien is very nearly human and now you can have that fun argument.

[RevBogovac]

 

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It's a good opening question.  I would rather begin with -- "Hello.".

 

But isn't that basically the same as:

 

On 3/19/2020 at 4:40 PM, RevBogovac said:

"Hi there! [...]"

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

But isn't that basically the same as:

 

 

 

 

Yes.  It is.  

 

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Yes.  It is.  

 

 

 

 

 

OK, so we've got both a good beginning... 

 

On 3/25/2020 at 2:02 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

It's a good opening question.  I would rather begin with -- "Hello.".

 

 

 

As well as an opening question

 

On 3/25/2020 at 11:16 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

[...] what's you doing? [...]

 

 

What now...? What could/would happen next...? 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

55 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

OK, so we've got both a good beginning... 

 

 

As well as an opening question

 

 

What now...? What could/would happen next...? 

 

 

Speculation aside, there is pragmatism.  If ET wanted us dead, there are plenty of ways to achieve this, from space.  They would have no need to introduce themselves.

 

Neither would they need our resources.  If they can come here, they can get all the water -- or what ever else

they need -- without taking ours.

 

If they come here at all -- and talk to us -- we can presume that they are friendly.

 

I'm still thinking missionaries.  That part is pure speculation.

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Speculation aside, there is pragmatism.  If ET wanted us dead, there are plenty of ways to achieve this, from space.  They would have no need to introduce themselves.

 

Neither would they need our resources.  If they can come here, they can get all the water -- or what ever else

they need -- without taking ours.

 

If they come here at all -- and talk to us -- we can presume that they are friendly.

 

I'm still thinking missionaries.  That part is pure speculation.

 

 

 

Hmkay.... we can go with those (and previous) assumptions... so an answer from ET like: "I'm here to have a nice talk" could be expected then...?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Hmkay.... we can go with those (and previous) assumptions... so an answer from ET like: "I'm here to have a nice talk" could be expected then...?

 

 

It makes more sense than -- I want your gold/water/etc.

 

A musician looking for novelty music, also makes sense.

 

 

 

 

[damnthing]

Hi, I'm !$%KIOP{, have you hear the word of %#_+)({:L:PI:L:K%#$%@W today?

[Key]

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Speculation aside, there is pragmatism.  If ET wanted us dead, there are plenty of ways to achieve this, from space.  They would have no need to introduce themselves.

 

Neither would they need our resources.  If they can come here, they can get all the water -- or what ever else

they need -- without taking ours.

 

If they come here at all -- and talk to us -- we can presume that they are friendly.

 

I'm still thinking missionaries.  That part is pure speculation.

 

 

 

Actually, another speculation other than "missionaries", could be scouts. Afterall, to come this far, there may not be anything left for them on their homeworld, or it may no longer exist. So, another planet to colonize. They just see us as ants in the park. And killing us from space, may just ruin the atmosphere for them.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, damnthing said:

Hi, I'm !$%KIOP{, have you hear the word of %#_+)({:L:PI:L:K%#$%@W today?

 

 

Yes.  That would be interesting.  I don't know that I would join -- but I would want to hear about it.