Evidence

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

Your Honor, the deed was committed by a being called a God. You can't see them or hear them or see them intervene. You can talk to it but you won't hear a reply. He comes in three parts. One of those parts you testify that he was born of a virgin, killed and rose from the dead. This was a long time ago but you want the jury to accept this as evidence.  Yep! Best of luck with that.

 

 

If you're going to go there -- remember the greatest legal defense in all of history.

 

The Devil made me do it.     

 

 

 

[Pete]

In the UK there was a notorious murderer called the Yorkshire Riper who killed and dismembered women at night. He claimed God told him to do it. Guess what he still got life imprisonment. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

14 minutes ago, Pete said:

In the UK there was a notorious murderer called the Yorkshire Riper who killed and dismembered women at night. He claimed God told him to do it. Guess what he still got life imprisonment. 

 

 

Now and then, reality peeks in through the cracks.     

 

Of course, when people bomb abortion clinics, they do argue that they did it for God.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, Pete said:

Your Honor, the deed was committed by a being called a God. You can't see them or hear them or see them intervene. You can talk to it but you won't hear a reply. He comes in three parts. One of those parts you testify that he was born of a virgin, killed and rose from the dead. This was a long time ago but you want the jury to accept this as evidence.  Yep! Best of luck with that.

 

Remember, Christ was the manifestation of God on earth, so people (witnesses) did see him, did hear him, did see God intervene in miraculous ways, and we have the written testimony from those witnesses. And it shouldn't be hard to accept the physical evidence, he rose from the grave, that's why no one could produce his body.

 

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This nonsense about Bible evidence is continuing.  Dan is comparing courtroom testimony to Scripture.

 

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.” ― Thomas Paine

 

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

If the alleged witness were giving testimony, to things that happened before their birth.

 

How about the witnesses who gave accurate testimony about things that happened after their birth... Talk about credibility... The divine word is its own best witness, you seem to be suggesting that the God and Creator of all that is, needs to be authenticated and confirmed at the County Courthouse. That's not only ridiculous, its impossible. You can't prove God by typical physical investigation, He's revealed by spirit and truth to those who seek Him and is hidden from those who try to rationalize God via human evaluation. "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent" (Matthew 11:25). How's that for evidence, Jesus said it 2000 years ago and its still valid today, your the fulfillment of a prophecy and didn't even know it 

 

[Pete]

Boring.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Remember, Christ was the manifestation of God on earth, so people (witnesses) did see him, did hear him, did see God intervene in miraculous ways, and we have the written testimony from those witnesses. And it shouldn't be hard to accept the physical evidence, he rose from the grave, that's why no one could produce his body.

 

 

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.” ― Thomas Paine

 

 

How about the witnesses who gave accurate testimony about things that happened after their birth... Talk about credibility... The divine word is its own best witness, you seem to be suggesting that the God and Creator of all that is, needs to be authenticated and confirmed at the County Courthouse. That's not only ridiculous, its impossible. You can't prove God by typical physical investigation, He's revealed by spirit and truth to those who seek Him and is hidden from those who try to rationalize God via human evaluation. "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent" (Matthew 11:25). How's that for evidence, Jesus said it 2000 years ago and its still valid today, your the fulfillment of a prophecy and didn't even know it 

 

 

 

 

You're quoting from The Age  of Reason, by Thomas Paine.  One of the founding documents of Deism -- to make your case.          

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason,

 

Paine is talking about you.     

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

58 minutes ago, Pete said:

Boring.

 

 

Yes.  And tedious.     

 

 

[RevBogovac]

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] “To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.” ― Thomas Paine [...]

 

20 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You're quoting from The Age  of Reason, by Thomas Paine.  One of the founding documents of Deism -- to make your case.          

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason,

 

Paine is talking about you.     

 

I am literally rolling on the floor laughing out loud... 

 

Thanks Dan!

 

 

 

[Key]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Remember, Christ was the manifestation of God on earth, so people (witnesses) did see him, did hear him, did see God intervene in miraculous ways, and we have the written testimony from those witnesses. And it shouldn't be hard to accept the physical evidence, he rose from the grave, that's why no one could produce his body.

 

Devil's advocate again:

You have to remember, Dan, this was an age where people believed they were seeing prophets performing miracles. So, in all likelihood, much like Muslims today, they saw Jesus as only another prophet, and not God on Earth. The only witness testimony we have today that says He was God, are those given in the Bible. A mere fraction of the population that would have seen anything. Who can say how many believed Jesus was God, or just a prophet outside of those authors?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Key said:

Devil's advocate again:

You have to remember, Dan, this was an age where people believed they were seeing prophets performing miracles. So, in all likelihood, much like Muslims today, they saw Jesus as only another prophet, and not God on Earth. The only witness testimony we have today that says He was God, are those given in the Bible. A mere fraction of the population that would have seen anything. Who can say how many believed Jesus was God, or just a prophet outside of those authors?

 

 

How little things change.  Right now, in India, there are living God men, walking around, performing miracles.  Plenty of people offer witness.

 

So what?     

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, Pete said:

Boring.

 

The truth isn't meant to entertain you. Not much fascination with non-believers repetitive ramblings either.

 

21 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You're quoting from The Age  of Reason, by Thomas Paine.  One of the founding documents of Deism -- to make your case.          

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason,

 

Paine is talking about you.     

 

Doesn't matter who said it, my point was that this is folly; "endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture".. Atheist have no spiritual understanding, so atheists defining God in a negative manner are like fish criticizing fresh air.

 

11 hours ago, Key said:

Devil's advocate again:

You have to remember, Dan, this was an age where people believed they were seeing prophets performing miracles. So, in all likelihood, much like Muslims today, they saw Jesus as only another prophet, and not God on Earth. The only witness testimony we have today that says He was God, are those given in the Bible. A mere fraction of the population that would have seen anything. Who can say how many believed Jesus was God, or just a prophet outside of those authors?

 

Of course the bible is the only legitimate source of Christ, and who better than those who lived and traveled with him to testify and record what they learned and witnessed. Your correct, most saw Christ as a prophet or Rabbi, but it became clear that he was much more than that when his guarded tomb was empty.  He was crucified for blasphemy when he proclaimed himself to be the Son of God, so your correct, even the religious community denounced him. But that was all prophesied, and it was later evident that Jesus embodied and fulfilled all the prophesies of the coming Messiah, and it was that recognition that made it obvious that Christ was much more than a prophet.   

[Pete]

Dan your idea of truth is not mine. Stop peddling it because it will never make sense to me. If a person does not believe the bible then quoting it or presenting it as presumed evidence means nothing to the reciever. What is viewed as fantasy cannot be evidence of reality.

[mark 45]

at the same time,dan has no use for our truth,and apparently,it will never make sense to him either.

 

right or wrong,the tos of this site say he has the right to believe anything he wants,and to a point,post such.we just don't have to accept it as reality.

[Pete]

25 minutes ago, mark 45 said:

at the same time,dan has no use for our truth,and apparently,it will never make sense to him either.

 

right or wrong,the tos of this site say he has the right to believe anything he wants,and to a point,post such.we just don't have to accept it as reality.

That maybe so Mark, but if someone is told that they do not believe the bible as evidence then quoting more of it and using it to justify your argument is futile. I accept Dan thinks differently to me but has he accepted I think differently to him. If he does then why keep posting biblical stuff on a no religion part of the forum when no one wants to hear it. We have got CML having his own pulpit in the philosophy section and not listening to anyone. Dan preaching in the no religion  section.  Hey ho! There we go.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Pete

[Pete]

Richard Dawkins' baloney check list:-

The complete checklist:

1. How reliable is the source of the claim?
2. Does the source make similar claims?
3. Have the claims been verified by somebody else?
4. Does this fit with the way the world works?
5. Has anyone tried to disprove the claim?
6. Where does the preponderance of evidence point?
7. Is the claimant playing by the rules of science?
8. Is the claimant providing positive evidence?
9. Does the new theory account for as many phenomena as the old theory?
10. Are personal beliefs driving the claim?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

18 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

The truth isn't meant to entertain you. Not much fascination with non-believers repetitive ramblings either.

 

 

Doesn't matter who said it, my point was that this is folly; "endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture".. Atheist have no spiritual understanding, so atheists defining God in a negative manner are like fish criticizing fresh air.

 

 

Of course the bible is the only legitimate source of Christ, and who better than those who lived and traveled with him to testify and record what they learned and witnessed. Your correct, most saw Christ as a prophet or Rabbi, but it became clear that he was much more than that when his guarded tomb was empty.  He was crucified for blasphemy when he proclaimed himself to be the Son of God, so your correct, even the religious community denounced him. But that was all prophesied, and it was later evident that Jesus embodied and fulfilled all the prophesies of the coming Messiah, and it was that recognition that made it obvious that Christ was much more than a prophet.   

 

 

Still, you persist.  This is a failing strategy, but you persist.   Have fun with that.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 hours ago, Pete said:

That maybe so Mark, but if someone is told that they do not believe the bible as evidence then quoting more of it and using it to justify your argument is futile. I accept Dan thinks differently to me but has he accepted I think differently to him. If he does then why keep posting biblical stuff on a no religion part of the forum when no one wants to hear it. We have got CML having his own pulpit in the philosophy section and not listening to anyone. Dan preaching in the no religion  section.  Hey ho! There we go.

 

 

Dan has his issues -- and limitations.  I think it's that simple.     

 

His mind is rigid.  We must not expect mental gymnastics.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

On 12/20/2019 at 7:04 AM, Pete said:

Dan your idea of truth is not mine. Stop peddling it because it will never make sense to me. If a person does not believe the bible then quoting it or presenting it as presumed evidence means nothing to the reciever. What is viewed as fantasy cannot be evidence of reality.

 

I'm aware that your idea of 'truth' is not mine, but why prohibit me from stating what I believe. What you believe makes little since to me either, but your obviously content with it, so it doesn't bother me. Your reality has no answers, its very limited to what you can physically observe, which provides no hope, no purpose, and no meaning to life. Sometime fantasy is better than a nightmare ..  And just to note, my last entry quoted no scripture?

 

On 12/20/2019 at 7:54 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Dan has his issues -- and limitations.  I think it's that simple.     

His mind is rigid.  We must not expect mental gymnastics.     

 

This coming from a man that has no comprehension of anything he cannot physically evaluate. Talk about limitations and a rigid mind. Can't see it, can't hear it, can't touch it, can't believe it.. Consider the odds that there are things that aren't defined by science and will never be proven by human reasoning alone. I have a yearning to know about things that you have no answers for and don't care about, if that's an issue, I'm fine with it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

37 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

This coming from a man that has no comprehension of anything he cannot physically evaluate. Talk about limitations and a rigid mind. Can't see it, can't hear it, can't touch it, can't believe it.. Consider the odds that there are things that aren't defined by science and will never be proven by human reasoning alone. I have a yearning to know about things that you have no answers for and don't care about, if that's an issue, I'm fine with it.

 

 

I am ready to reevaluate, given reasonable evidence.  Something more than blind faith and bald assertions.

 

Without evidence, we fall prey to every huckster, flim flam, confidence hustle and humbug.  No thanks.

 

You have no difficulty rejecting other religions.  I have no difficulty rejecting yours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I am ready to reevaluate, given reasonable evidence.  Something more than blind faith and bald assertions.

 

Without evidence, we fall prey to every huckster, flim flam, confidence hustle and humbug.  No thanks.

 

You have no difficulty rejecting other religions.  I have no difficulty rejecting yours.

 

For me its not blind faith, the bible is reasonable evidence, and for me it is self-evident. But some folks don't it see what I see and aren't open to believing. I don't read bald assertions, but see specific prophesies that demonstrate an obvious truth. I have no difficulty rejecting other religions either, but Christ was unique, no man could have or ever has done what he did, and it was all foretold. So I hold to what rings true for me, but of course, its up to every individual to discern the truth from a lie.