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I am not trying to get converts but some Faith's won't let it go there. I could easily live and let live but not when I feel hammered all the time by strained arguments designed to shoot my viewpoint down. I am agnostic and That is that. I am not interested in converts. Most evangelical Faith's do a good enough job on their own because despite all the effort they put into it there is still no empirical evidence and it's no more than a belief coupled with an assertion and twisting arguments to suit their ministry. 

As an atheist or agnostic they want facts and that is what their ministry is always short of.  Also because of the lack of evidence I just can't be bothered to treat what they are saying with respect and listen. Maybe if they don't understand what atheist or agnostic means then  maybe I should spell it out with "I just can't be bothered and will not be bothered ".

 

Edited by Pete
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In my experience, when I use the Agnostic label, what happens?  The big argument that comes my way is -- What would it take for you to make up your mind?   In the minds of religious people,

So he's only a 'local' deity?  

It still means sailing over the Himalayas and the Afghanistan mountain ranges to get anywhere near the mountains of Ararat. Any flood that covered these mountains had to be worldwide. 

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I am not trying to get converts but some Faith's won't let it go there. I could easily live and let live but not when I feel hammered all the time by strained arguments designed to shoot my viewpoint down. I am agnostic and That is that. I am not interested in converts. Most evangelical Faith's do a good enough job on their own because despite all the effort they put into it there is still no empirical evidence and it's no more than a belief coupled with an assertion and twisting arguments to suit their ministry. 

As an atheist or agnostic they want facts and that is what their ministry is always short of.  Also because of the lack of evidence I just can't be bothered to treat what they are saying with respect and listen. Maybe if they don't understand what atheist or agnostic means then  maybe I should spell it out with "I just can't be bothered and will not be bothered ".

 

 

 

I agree.  The thought experiment is easy.

 

Pretend that God exists.  What changes?  Nothing.

Pretend that God does not exist.  What changes?  Nothing.

 

Nothing changes either way?  It doesn't matter.

 

:drinks:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pete said:

Just so.

 

 

In my experience, when I use the Agnostic label, what happens?  The big argument that comes my way is -- What would it take for you to make up your mind?

 

In the minds of religious people, the question of God's existence, itself,  sets up false expectations. 

  • that the question of God's existence matters.
  • that I care whether or not God exists.
  • that I am seeking to discover, whether or not God exists.
  • that I am actively thinking about it.

No.  We have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  Not one.  Nothing about God can be demonstrated to be true.

  • We can't even come up with a working definition of God.  What then, are we even talking about?
  • We do have a set of attributes -- all powerful, all good, all knowing -- which are not compatible with each other.
  • In the end, even the question of God's existence is a thing of futility.  A form of mental masturbation.  It might be enjoyable, but it is useless.
  • A god which can not be detected or discerned is meaningless.
  • God could exist.  It simply doesn't matter.

For me, the word that best describes this, is Apatheist.  Not caring whether or not God exists.

  • No more arguing about belief.
  • No more arguing about knowing.
  • No more arguing about the burden of proof.
  • No more arguing about evidence.
  • No more stupid arguments about Creationism or Genesis.

It doesn't matter.     :coffee:

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In the minds of religious people, the question of God's existence, itself,  sets up false expectations. 

  • that the question of God's existence matters.
  • that I care whether or not God exists.
  • that I am seeking to discover, whether or not God exists.
  • that I am actively thinking about it.

No.  We have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  Not one.  Nothing about God can be demonstrated to be true.

  • We can't even come up with a working definition of God. 

 

Your correct, in that it doesn't matter if God exist to people who don't believe, why would it?

For people who don't know, it doesn't matter either.

And for those who don't care, there's no reason to believe.

 

It only matters to those who choose to believe, only believers have a reason to care.

The working definition of God was Christ.

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17 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Your correct, in that it doesn't matter if God exist to people who don't believe, why would it?

For people who don't know, it doesn't matter either.

And for those who don't care, there's no reason to believe.

 

It only matters to those who choose to believe, only believers have a reason to care.

The working definition of God was Christ.

 

Where is the evidence?  Do you have anything besides Scripture, faith and assertion to back that up?  Saying it does not make it so.  Believing it does not make it so.  Quoting Bible does not make it so.  Another faith statement.  So what?

 

Further, a god that small, is so easy not to believe in.  Or take seriously.

 

:boredom:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl
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4 hours ago, cuchulain said:

A perfectly good being won't care that I don't believe in him, but will judge mercifully anyway and not be swayed by ego, so nothing changes if I don't believe.  

 

 

 

This goes to the core of Christian belief.  God, the all powerful -- the God that can do anything -- can NOT simply forgive.  First, we need the cosmic circus.

 

First, there is the debacle of Adam and Eve, creating and passing down Original Sin.  They understood nothing of good and evil.  They understood nothing about consequence or responsibility.  But everything was their fault.  God the parent is a fool.  Any Human father knows, that if he says to his children -- "Don't put beans up your nose" -- that he will have to debean them.

 

Noah's flood was not enough to purify the world.  Drowning everyone and everything wasn't enough.  Original Sin survived.

 

So, what is God's perfect plan to deal with Original Sin?  (The God that knows everything, has a plan?)

  • First, he impregnates His mother with Himself.  (Oh, yuck)
  • Then, He demonstrates that He is the perfect man -- for the rest of us to model ourselves after.  (You remember how He cursed the fig tree, for not having fruit out of season?  He gets mean when He's hungry.)
  • Then, because He can not simply forgive -- we have the drama of sacrificing Himself -- to Himself -- in the nastiest and most brutal ways that he can find.
  • So that He can rise in three days -- one awful weekend -- and rule forever.
  • God can now forgive anything -- Anything -- except not believing this story.

Which part of any of this, are YOU buying?  Remember, by Dan's definition -- God is Christ.  That is how he defines God.  That actually fits.  The Old Testament God also has a temper.

 

:devil:     :diablo:

 

We can't leave out the Devil in Christian thinking.  That's a different rant.

 

:bleh:     :coffee:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl
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On 12/3/2019 at 10:17 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Where is the evidence?  Do you have anything besides Scripture, faith and assertion to back that up?  Saying it does not make it so.  Believing it does not make it so.  Quoting Bible does not make it so.  Another faith statement.  So what?

 

Further, a god that small, is so easy not to believe in.  Or take seriously.

 

The evidence came and left, but don't worry, he said "I'll be back". Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience.

 

21 hours ago, cuchulain said:

A perfectly good being won't care that I don't believe in him, but will judge mercifully anyway and not be swayed by ego, so nothing changes if I don't believe.  

 

" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

 

17 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This goes to the core of Christian belief.  God, the all powerful -- the God that can do anything -- can NOT simply forgive.  First, we need the cosmic circus.

 

First, there is the debacle of Adam and Eve, creating and passing down Original Sin.  They understood nothing of good and evil.  They understood nothing about consequence or responsibility.  But everything was their fault.  God the parent is a fool.  Any Human father knows, that if he says to his children -- "Don't put beans up your nose" -- that he will have to debean them.

 

Noah's flood was not enough to purify the world.  Drowning everyone and everything wasn't enough.  Original Sin survived.

 

So, what is God's perfect plan to deal with Original Sin?  (The God that knows everything, has a plan?)

  • First, he impregnates His mother with Himself.  (Oh, yuck)
  • Then, He demonstrates that He is the perfect man -- for the rest of us to model ourselves after.  (You remember how He cursed the fig tree, for not having fruit out of season?  He gets mean when He's hungry.)
  • Then, because He can not simply forgive -- we have the drama of sacrificing Himself -- to Himself -- in the nastiest and most brutal ways that he can find.
  • So that He can rise in three days -- one awful weekend -- and rule forever.
  • God can now forgive anything -- Anything -- except not believing this story.

Which part of any of this, are YOU buying?  Remember, by Dan's definition -- God is Christ.  That is how he defines God.  That actually fits.  The Old Testament God also has a temper.

 

 

A&E freely chose evil, which is simply the result of disobedience to God.. God told them the consequences prior to their choice...

God saw only wickedness in the world, the flood ended it. Sin survived, but there's also good now.

The fig tree represents the nation of Israel in prophecy, Christ was not cursing the tree, but the bad figs (Israel).

God has always forgiven the sin of the repentant. The sacrifice atoned for sin, the remission of sin erases our debts.

Yes God has a temper, but He is patient and withholding his wrath so that even stubborn people have an opportunity to change their attitudes.

 

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 10:20 AM, cuchulain said:

A perfectly good being won't care that I don't believe in him, but will judge mercifully anyway and not be swayed by ego, so nothing changes if I don't believe.  

 

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

The evidence came and left, but don't worry, he said "I'll be back". Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience.

 

[...]
 

Yes God has a temper, but He is patient and withholding his wrath so that even stubborn people have an opportunity to change their attitudes.


And there we go with the threats again... one would think that a benevolent god would have found more persuasive means... but no.

 

Anyway, if your god really returns and is such an ego-tripper that he needs my affirmation in advance on blind faith well... he isn’t an all good god then whom I would choose to spend the rest of eternity serving. Not even mentioning his “temper” (which is totally arbitrary too, having bears moal he one and leaving the other be). 
 

Have “fun” with him I say! (I’m with cuchulain.)

 

:bye:

Edited by RevBogovac
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7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

The evidence came and left, but don't worry, he said "I'll be back". Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience.

 

 

" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

 

 

A&E freely chose evil, which is simply the result of disobedience to God.. God told them the consequences prior to their choice...

God saw only wickedness in the world, the flood ended it. Sin survived, but there's also good now.

The fig tree represents the nation of Israel in prophecy, Christ was not cursing the tree, but the bad figs (Israel).

God has always forgiven the sin of the repentant. The sacrifice atoned for sin, the remission of sin erases our debts.

Yes God has a temper, but He is patient and withholding his wrath so that even stubborn people have an opportunity to change their attitudes.

 

 

 

 

Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience.

 

More terrorist threats.  Intended to enforce submission onto the nonbeliever.  How very Christian of you.

:bleh:

 

Christ was not cursing the tree, but the bad figs (Israel).

 

Interesting.  Twisting Scripture into something antisemitic.  Maybe the author meant it as antisemitic?  Anyway -- How very Christian of you.

:bleh:

 

 

Yes God has a temper,

 

In the Bible, God also says that He is jealous.  Shall we enumerate God's other character and personality flaws?  It's all there, in the Book.

:sigh2:

 

 

 

:coffee:

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl
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4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 


And there we go with the threats again... one would think that a benevolent god would have found more persuasive means... but no.

 

Anyway, if your god really returns and is such an ego-tripper that he needs my affirmation in advance on blind faith well... he isn’t an all good god then whom I would choose to spend the rest of eternity serving. Not even mentioning his “temper” (which is totally arbitrary too, having bears moal he one and leaving the other be). 
 

Have “fun” with him I say! (I’m with cuchulain.)

 

:bye:

 

 

 

And there we go with the threats again.

 

As I gaze into my cracked crystal ball; I can already see Dan's outraged response. 

It isn't a threat unless you believe it. 

You know.  The usual two faced crap.  He gets to make the threat -- except that it's not a threat.  He is so predictable.

 

:drinks:

 

 

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Pete said:

Me too. It is strange coming to a no religion part of the forum and preaching religion. Dan may believe as he does but he will not get converts here

 

 

 

I would like to make a distinction here.  As nonbelievers -- we don't have any ill will or opposition to the Pagan world.  That's because the Pagans don't get up in our faces -- and tell us that we are going to Hell.

 

:cheers:

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

The evidence came and left, but don't worry, he said "I'll be back". Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience.

 

 

" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

 

 

A&E freely chose evil, which is simply the result of disobedience to God.. God told them the consequences prior to their choice...

God saw only wickedness in the world, the flood ended it. Sin survived, but there's also good now.

The fig tree represents the nation of Israel in prophecy, Christ was not cursing the tree, but the bad figs (Israel).

God has always forgiven the sin of the repentant. The sacrifice atoned for sin, the remission of sin erases our debts.

Yes God has a temper, but He is patient and withholding his wrath so that even stubborn people have an opportunity to change their attitudes.

 

 

There's a slight problem with your explanation, Dan. If all He saw was wickedness, then why spare Noah and his family? Because they were good. So good did exist before, therefore all was not wicked. But sin still survived, why? Because Noah and his family survived. Man has a tendency to lean toward sin. Why? Maybe because they were created that way? See the paradox in detail. 

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6 hours ago, Key said:

There's a slight problem with your explanation, Dan. If all He saw was wickedness, then why spare Noah and his family? Because they were good. So good did exist before, therefore all was not wicked. But sin still survived, why? Because Noah and his family survived. Man has a tendency to lean toward sin. Why? Maybe because they were created that way? See the paradox in detail. 

 

 

I thought that the whole point of the flood, was to remove "wickedness" from the world.

 

God seems to have trouble with his plans.  Why does a God -- with perfect knowledge of the future --   have difficulty with his plans?  Nothing seems to work out as God expects.

 

Adam and Eve was a plan.  The Great Flood was a plan.  The Covenant with Abraham was a plan.  All of God's plans seem to fail.  Yet he know the future.  And he's all powerful.  And he's perfect in every way.

 

One more plan that went wrong.  The Jews -- the people of Jesus -- were not buying what he was selling.  Taking the story at face value -- maybe they knew something?     :rolleyes:

 

:coffee:

 

 

When the people who run a restaurant, won't eat the food -- eat someplace else.

 

:lol:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl
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On 12/5/2019 at 3:29 AM, RevBogovac said:

 


And there we go with the threats again... one would think that a benevolent god would have found more persuasive means... but no.

 

Anyway, if your god really returns and is such an ego-tripper that he needs my affirmation in advance on blind faith well... he isn’t an all good god then whom I would choose to spend the rest of eternity serving. Not even mentioning his “temper” (which is totally arbitrary too, having bears moal he one and leaving the other be). 
 

Have “fun” with him I say! (I’m with cuchulain.)

 

:bye:

 

Eternal life is a persuasive means.... God desires your trust (faith), but He doesn't need it.

 

20 hours ago, Pete said:

Me too. It is strange coming to a no religion part of the forum and preaching religion. Dan may believe as he does but he will not get converts here

 

 

I wasn't looking for converts, I was simply correcting some irrational and ridiculous biblical conclusions.. Like cuchulain saying that belief didn't matter.

 

19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

As I gaze into my cracked crystal ball; I can already see Dan's outraged response. 

It isn't a threat unless you believe it.

 

True... I only know that if I didn't believe the bible, nothing it says would threaten me. 

 

17 hours ago, Key said:

There's a slight problem with your explanation, Dan. If all He saw was wickedness, then why spare Noah and his family? Because they were good. So good did exist before, therefore all was not wicked. But sin still survived, why? Because Noah and his family survived. Man has a tendency to lean toward sin. Why? Maybe because they were created that way? See the paradox in detail. 

 

I gave a simplified explanation, but much of the wickedness was do to human contamination. Fallen angels produced nephilim, a biblical race of giants or demigods. Noah's family were the only pure undefiled descendants of Adam. But yes, sin survived of course, we are all born in sin.

 

10 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

God seems to have trouble with his plans.  Why does a God -- with perfect knowledge of the future --   have difficulty with his plans?  Nothing seems to work out as God expects.

 

Adam and Eve was a plan.  The Great Flood was a plan.  The Covenant with Abraham was a plan.  All of God's plans seem to fail.  Yet he know the future.  And he's all powerful.  And he's perfect in every way.

 

A&E were a test, and they failed.. The flood was a cleansing.. The Abrahamic covenant was a promise. God's plans never fail, people do.. Christ was the future, and that ultimate plan did not fail, because he is perfect in every way. 

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