If Christianity were proven true

[Key]

15 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I agree with God's judgement..They weren't just mocking "someone", they were indirectly mocking God. No different than those who mocked Christ when he was crucified. That's a big no no.

But I understand from the liberal perspective that disciplining youths is something you never do. "Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them" (Proverbs 13:24)

Hate to have to interject here, Dan, but in my opinion, the use of a rod and the use of a bear are not the same. Note the quote says, "...is careful to discipline them." This presumes a method of control of force so as to not overdo measure of punishment to befitting offense. Bears do not rationalize punishment, do they? They wouldn't even understand the offense, I'm sure.

God moves them to attack, they attack, but have no idea as to why, nor how to modify their destructive behavior.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Key said:

Hate to have to interject here, Dan, but in my opinion, the use of a rod and the use of a bear are not the same. Note the quote says, "...is careful to discipline them." This presumes a method of control of force so as to not overdo measure of punishment to befitting offense. Bears do not rationalize punishment, do they? They wouldn't even understand the offense, I'm sure.

God moves them to attack, they attack, but have no idea as to why, nor how to modify their destructive behavior.

 

 

Have you not heard?  God is LOVE.  This is the perfect justice of the perfect being.     

 

Dan can't disagree with God's judgement.  He simply can't.  Faith over reason.     

 

Because God moves in delirious ways.     

 

 

 

[Dan56]

19 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

That's an reductio ad absurdum; no one here is saying "that disciplining youths is something you never do". The point being made is: it is immeasurably disproportionate (and very immoral) to have children mauled because they ridiculed anything. By claiming that is an appropriate approach you are disqualifying both yourself as well as your god.

 

Children = young men (Hebrew naar). The same word used of Issac (28 years old), Joseph (39), Rehoboam (40).. When they mocked Elisha saying "Go up", it may have been referring to Elijah's previous translation into heaven, which was a blasphemous insult that outraged God. You guys obviously think the punishment was excessive, but I'm going to side with God's judgement.

 

11 hours ago, Key said:

Hate to have to interject here, Dan, but in my opinion, the use of a rod and the use of a bear are not the same. Note the quote says, "...is careful to discipline them." This presumes a method of control of force so as to not overdo measure of punishment to befitting offense. Bears do not rationalize punishment, do they? They wouldn't even understand the offense, I'm sure.

God moves them to attack, they attack, but have no idea as to why, nor how to modify their destructive behavior.

 

Yes, I wasn't blaming the bears, it was God who used them to stop the mocking. I simply believe the punishment fit the offense, blasphemy against His prophets. That probably means little to nonbelievers, but its a fitting punishment for believers. Jonathan is right, faith = trust, so I trust God's judgement over my own.

[cuchulain]

And so I can not accept your morals and values as a result.  Pretty simple.

[RevBogovac]

On 9/10/2019 at 7:16 AM, Dan56 said:

 

Children = young men (Hebrew naar). The same word used of Issac (28 years old), Joseph (39), Rehoboam (40).. When they mocked Elisha saying "Go up", it may have been referring to Elijah's previous translation into heaven, which was a blasphemous insult that outraged God. You guys obviously think the punishment was excessive, but I'm going to side with God's judgement.

 

 

Yes, I wasn't blaming the bears, it was God who used them to stop the mocking. I simply believe the punishment fit the offense, blasphemy against His prophets. That probably means little to nonbelievers, but its a fitting punishment for believers. Jonathan is right, faith = trust, so I trust God's judgement over my own.

 

And that is EXACTLY the reasoning terrorists employ to do what they do... 

 

Mocking/blasphemy does NOT condone such a punishment in ANY (remotely) moral code (either intrinsic or extrinsic). There is a difference between punishment and disciplining... 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

And that is EXACTLY the reasoning terrorists employ to do what they do... 

 

Mocking/blasphemy does NOT condone such a punishment in ANY (remotely) moral code (either intrinsic or extrinsic). There is a difference between punishment and disciplining... 

 

 

It isn't only terrorists.  Modern Islamic nations, under Sharia Law, punish blasphemy harshly.  

 

 

 

[Key]

On 9/9/2019 at 10:16 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Children = young men (Hebrew naar). The same word used of Issac (28 years old), Joseph (39), Rehoboam (40).. When they mocked Elisha saying "Go up", it may have been referring to Elijah's previous translation into heaven, which was a blasphemous insult that outraged God. You guys obviously think the punishment was excessive, but I'm going to side with God's judgement.

 

 

Yes, I wasn't blaming the bears, it was God who used them to stop the mocking. I simply believe the punishment fit the offense, blasphemy against His prophets. That probably means little to nonbelievers, but its a fitting punishment for believers. Jonathan is right, faith = trust, so I trust God's judgement over my own.

Here is where I actually have a problem with this: it doesn't fit the offense.

Let's place this under a different perspective. Your child is called names by another child at school, so your solution is to unleash an attack dog on all the kids at school to prevent it from ever happening again. The dog mauls many children, even those who did not commit any offense, but the dog doesn't know, nor really cares as it is doing its master's bidding.

Plus, we already have a tale of God personally smiting those who opposed Moses. As He can and has done this, why the need for other critters to punish for Him, and indiscriminately?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, Key said:

Here is where I actually have a problem with this: it doesn't fit the offense.

Let's place this under a different perspective. Your child is called names by another child at school, so your solution is to unleash an attack dog on all the kids at school to prevent it from ever happening again. The dog mauls many children, even those who did not commit any offense, but the dog doesn't know, nor really cares as it is doing its master's bidding.

Plus, we already have a tale of God personally smiting those who opposed Moses. As He can and has done this, why the need for other critters to punish for Him, and indiscriminately?

 

 

Be careful.  Once we start down the path of reason, there is no turning back.

 

Consider Noah's Flood.  Humanity had become evil and had to be destroyed.  What does God do?  Do all the evil people simply fall down dead?  Do their dead bodies vanish, so that the world is spared dealing with all that rot and decay?  No.  Of course not.  God drowns the whole world.

 

This is not a God that sweats the small stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

On 9/11/2019 at 11:35 AM, Key said:

Here is where I actually have a problem with this: it doesn't fit the offense.

Let's place this under a different perspective. Your child is called names by another child at school, so your solution is to unleash an attack dog on all the kids at school to prevent it from ever happening again. The dog mauls many children, even those who did not commit any offense, but the dog doesn't know, nor really cares as it is doing its master's bidding.

Plus, we already have a tale of God personally smiting those who opposed Moses. As He can and has done this, why the need for other critters to punish for Him, and indiscriminately?

 

Few non-Christians ever believe the punishment fits the offense, but I just trust God's judgement.. I assume God is Just and knows all, so His judgement is also perfectly righteous. And blasphemy coming from those who know better is far greater than one child calling another names. Jesus said the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.. The story doesn't specify how many were ridiculing Elisha, only that 42 were mauled. I suspect the whole group was taking part, so I highly doubt there was anything indiscriminate about the punishment dished out. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

40 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Few non-Christians ever believe the punishment fits the offense, but I just trust God's judgement.. I assume God is Just and knows all, so His judgement is also perfectly righteous. And blasphemy coming from those who know better is far greater than one child calling another names. Jesus said the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.. The story doesn't specify how many were ridiculing Elisha, only that 42 were mauled. I suspect the whole group was taking part, so I highly doubt there was anything indiscriminate about the punishment dished out. 

 

 

Yes.  Of course you do.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Yes.  Of course you do.

 

 

In your extremely liberal mind-set, do you believe anyone should ever be accountable for anything? I get the feeling that if any of you guys ever saw a parent tap an unruly child on the rear-end for acting up in a store, you'd be on your cell phone in a second with 911 to report what you consider extreme abuse? "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:16) .. So considering the law, those young men who were mauled got off easy.

[cuchulain]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

In your extremely liberal mind-set, do you believe anyone should ever be accountable for anything? I get the feeling that if any of you guys ever saw a parent tap an unruly child on the rear-end for acting up in a store, you'd be on your cell phone in a second with 911 to report what you consider extreme abuse? "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:16) .. So considering the law, those young men who were mauled got off easy.

Yep.  You clearly have no right to judge anyone else's moral standards.

[cuchulain]

2 Kings 2:23-24 King James Version (KJV)

 

²³ And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

 

²⁴ And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

 

Little children...the kjv you use dan.  It doesnt say young men.  It doesnt specify they knew he was a prophet.  It says he cursed them in the name of the lord who sent bears.  

 

Is it blasphemy to mock a guy walking down the street, when there isnt knowledge of his protected status?  Even if it is, god is supposed to be more advanced than i am.  I certainly know its wrong to maul 'little children'(quit paraphrasing to suit dan, changing the words of the bible could be blasphemy)...god should know better.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

In your extremely liberal mind-set, do you believe anyone should ever be accountable for anything? I get the feeling that if any of you guys ever saw a parent tap an unruly child on the rear-end for acting up in a store, you'd be on your cell phone in a second with 911 to report what you consider extreme abuse? "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:16) .. So considering the law, those young men who were mauled got off easy.

 

 

Do your ears hear what your mouth is saying?

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

2 Kings 2:23-24 King James Version (KJV)

 

²³ And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

 

²⁴ And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

 

Little children...the kjv you use dan.  It doesnt say young men.  It doesnt specify they knew he was a prophet.  It says he cursed them in the name of the lord who sent bears.  

 

Is it blasphemy to mock a guy walking down the street, when there isnt knowledge of his protected status?  Even if it is, god is supposed to be more advanced than i am.  I certainly know its wrong to maul 'little children'(quit paraphrasing to suit dan, changing the words of the bible could be blasphemy)...god should know better.

 

 

 

I think it's obvious, that the people who wrote the books of the Bible, projected their own minds onto God.  A brutal and unjust culture will give rise to a brutal and unjust God.

 

For the rest -- calm yourself.  It's Dan.  He has limits.  Think of it as a form of hysterical blindness.  He can not see anything that goes against his belief in God or Scripture.  This is what happens when faith is elevated above all else.  He's not being stupid.  He's not being crazy.  He's blind.  We have to make allowances.  Reason will not prevail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

23 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Yep.  You clearly have no right to judge anyone else's moral standards.

 

22 hours ago, cuchulain said:

2 Kings 2:23-24 King James Version (KJV)

Is it blasphemy to mock a guy walking down the street, when there isnt knowledge of his protected status?  Even if it is, god is supposed to be more advanced than i am.  I certainly know its wrong to maul 'little children'(quit paraphrasing to suit dan, changing the words of the bible could be blasphemy)...god should know better.

 

 

Everyone judges the moral standards of others, I just don't believe I have a right to judge God's standards..

 

As I explained, The KJ and other bible versions have some translation errors where its necessary to transliterate what was being expressed in the original language. In this passage its logical to presume that "naar" is referencing young adults. Its not changing the words of the bible as much as getting an accurate definition of a word that has also been used in reference to young men. 

 

Blasphemy is;  "The act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk". Sacred things would be specific to what God anointed for His purpose (prophets, kings, etc), this would exclude your average guy walking down the street. Consider for a moment that God does know more than you, whereby God does know better than us. The older boys or young men mocking the prophet were obviously Hebrew and had previous knowledge of Elijah's ascent into heaven, which is why they were teasing Elisha to do likewise. 

 

[RevBogovac]

23 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] He's not being crazy.  [...]

 

And still I cannot help it but to think of this topic... 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

Everyone judges the moral standards of others, I just don't believe I have a right to judge God's standards..

As I explained, The KJ and other bible versions have some translation errors where its necessary to transliterate what was being expressed in the original language. In this passage its logical to presume that "naar" is referencing young adults. Its not changing the words of the bible as much as getting an accurate definition of a word that has also been used in reference to young men. 

Blasphemy is;  "The act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk". Sacred things would be specific to what God anointed for His purpose (prophets, kings, etc), this would exclude your average guy walking down the street. Consider for a moment that God does know more than you, whereby God does know better than us. The older boys or young men mocking the prophet were obviously Hebrew and had previous knowledge of Elijah's ascent into heaven, which is why they were teasing Elisha to do likewise. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

And still I cannot help it but to think of this topic... 

 

 

A stiff mind, produced by a stiff culture.  It's no use demanding mental dexterity.  It's beyond him.

 

     

 

 

[cuchulain]

When a person can argue"little children" into young men, they really don't need a book anymore.  Might as well just admit to making it up.