A Pagan Voice with something to say.

[RevBogovac]

On 7/20/2019 at 8:08 PM, Geordon said:

[...] so I'm back, and I'm Pagan.   What would you like to talk/hear about?

 

 

Welcome back! 

 

First of all, my apologies for my English. It,s my third language, so here I go:

 

my oldest daughter i has multiple handicaps/disabilities. She’s born with a deletion of part of her 11th chromosome which lead to all kind of disabilities. Without boring you (all) with everything she can not do, I’m more interested in what she can. Actually in what she is good at. She is extremely in touch with nature (e.g. she talks with anymals, not to... with!). Unfortunately current day society does not appreciate that much any more (in previous times she would have been included in her society as a which, I,m certain...). So I am lost for help.

 

What resources/direction would you recommend to start my research in this direction to be better able to help her...?

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

12 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Welcome back! 

 

First of all, my apologies for my English. It,s my third language, so here I go:

 

my oldest daughter i has multiple handicaps/disabilities. She’s born with a deletion of part of her 11th chromosome which lead to all kind of disabilities. Without boring you (all) with everything she can not do, I’m more interested in what she can. Actually in what she is good at. She is extremely in touch with nature (e.g. she talks with anymals, not to... with!). Unfortunately current day society does not appreciate that much any more (in previous times she would have been included in her society as a which, I,m certain...). So I am lost for help.

 

What resources/direction would you recommend to start my research in this direction to be better able to help her...?

 

 

 

 

People like to feel useful.  It gives life purpose.  I don't know what her physical or mental challenges are.  The only ability you describe, is empathy with other species.

 

Dog and cat shelters generally need volunteer help.  Someone with true empathy for animals, would be helpful.  If not with direct physical care, then with the emotional needs of the animal guests.

 

Veterinarians would have similar needs for volunteer help.  Sick and injured patients of any species, need calming and emotional support.

 

Zoos might have similar needs, for volunteers.

 

I agree.  It is good to focus on your daughter's strengths.

 

 

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 It is good to focus on your daughter's strengths.

 

Seconded.

 

Farm work might also be an option (depending on her condition). You might want to consider WWOOF (https://wwoof.net/)

 

[Key]

Again, not knowing what her exact limits might be, helping to train or foster therapy animals might also be something to look into, though personally caring for another living thing in the household does come with added expenses. But, handlers do seem to achieve a sense of worth and satisfaction through it all.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Key
grammar

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Key said:

Again, not knowing what her exact limits might be, helping to train or foster therapy animals might also be something to look into, though personally caring for another living thing in the household does come with added expenses. But, handlers do seem to achieve a sense of worth and satisfaction through it all.

 

 

Good one.     

 

 

[Key]

23 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Good one.     

 

 

Yeah, occasionally my brain does work. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

23 minutes ago, Key said:

Yeah, occasionally my brain does work. 

 

 

It takes patience and love to raise a seeing eye puppy.  A true contribution to the greater good.     

 

 

[RevBogovac]

Thanks guys. At the moment she’s 11 y/o so still in (special care) “grade school”. She goes one afternoon/week to a special care farm where she learns to care for the animals (the only kid I know that gets into a car with a big smile explaining how she shoveled **...).

 

But I am also looking for more in depth information. Both physical (herbs for my instance) and spiritual (especially getting in touch with likeminded people)...

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Thanks guys. At the moment she’s 11 y/o so still in (special care) “grade school”. She goes one afternoon/week to a special care farm where she learns to care for the animals (the only kid I know that gets into a car with a big smile explaining how she shoveled **...).

 

But I am also looking for more in depth information. Both physical (herbs for my instance) and spiritual (especially getting in touch with like minded people)...

 

 

I'm not clear about where this is going.  Are you looking for therapies for your daughter?  Is this your interest in herbs?  Maybe physical training, like Yoga?  Breath work?  Horseback riding?

 

What kind of spiritual development do you have in mind?  You want like minded people.  What kind of "like minded"?  

 

If I can be more clear about what you want -- it will help.

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Key]

6 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Thanks guys. At the moment she’s 11 y/o so still in (special care) “grade school”. She goes one afternoon/week to a special care farm where she learns to care for the animals (the only kid I know that gets into a car with a big smile explaining how she shoveled **...).

 

But I am also looking for more in depth information. Both physical (herbs for my instance) and spiritual (especially getting in touch with likeminded people)...

Have to admit, this kinda confused me, too.

The given suggestions could still work with an eleven year old. If for a vet, it is up to what they have patience for. Farms often encourage youngsters to learning care for animals to broaden enthusiasm to become future farmers. Therapy animal programs can cater in some form to ability and needs of a volunteer, as well.

 

The in-depth line seems to change the needs from her to you. Are you implying you wish to share the experience with her, or that you'd like some side benefit, or what?

[RevBogovac]

As I said...

 

On 7/22/2019 at 5:40 PM, RevBogovac said:

What resources/direction would you recommend to start my research in this direction to be better able to help her...?

 

It's more of a: I want to learn more about Paganism but the interwebs is so full of "information" some direction would be nice - kind of question.

 

She gets all the help she (and we) can handle at the moment, but I - as her parent - want to know more about this (Paganism/binding with nature) so I can help/direct her better in the future (what options are there et cetera).

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

As I said...

 

It's more of a: I want to learn more about Paganism but the interwebs is so full of "information" some direction would be nice - kind of question.

 

She gets all the help she (and we) can handle at the moment, but I - as her parent - want to know more about this (Paganism/binding with nature) so I can help/direct her better in the future (what options are there et cetera).

 

 

 

I think that we are getting closer to what you want to know.

 

This is strictly my understanding -- and I am not Pagan.  Neither do I speak for any Pagans or Pagan group.

 

There is no such thing as standard Paganism.  Neither is there any kind of standard Pagan.  At best, for purposes of analogy, we can think of Pagans as being cats.  They are all individuals.  If you know twenty cats, you know twenty individuals and the differences among them will be huge.  At the same time, they will all be -- in some sense -- feline -- and you will not confuse them with dogs.

 

If you want to know the minds of your daughter's Pagan friends, you will have to get to know each and every one of them, as individuals.  If you want to know one individual Pagan group -- you will have to hang with them. 

 

There are no shortcuts.  Going to the internet will only give you facts -- which is not what you need.  You will not find out what you want to know.

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

I guess you’re right Jonathan, but there are some facts in there too... so maybe we can split it up a bit...

 

What online resource is a good factual place to start research regarding the physical world from a Pagan perspective? 

 

Any online gathering of Pagans going on that could be a good place to start for me to look at?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 7/22/2019 at 11:40 AM, RevBogovac said:

 

Welcome back! 

 

First of all, my apologies for my English. It’s my third language, so here I go:

 

my oldest daughter has multiple handicaps/disabilities. She’s born with a deletion of part of her 11th chromosome which lead to all kind of disabilities. Without boring you (all) with everything she can not do, I’m more interested in what she can. Actually in what she is good at. She is extremely in touch with nature (e.g. she talks with anymals, not to... with!). Unfortunately current day society does not appreciate that much any more (in previous times she would have been included in her society as a which, I’m certain...). So I am lost for help.

 

What resources/direction would you recommend to start my research in this direction to be better able to help her...?

 

 

 

 

The only Pagan that I know of -- still on this board -- is Geordon.  He has posted on page one of this thread.  I would begin by sending him a private message.

 

I know nothing of the Pagan boards.  They need their own Pagan only space and I have made it a policy not to intrude.  I expect that they would be friendly to the father of a Pagan.  Still, I don't know and I can't speak for them.

 

Patheos Pagan puts out some interesting blogs.  They are free.  I subscribe.  It's interesting stuff.

 

I can't think of anything else to say, that would help.

 

 

[Geordon]

Patheos Pagan has some really great authors.  Some are more hard-line, some are very Universalist, but all of the ones that I've come across are all typically higher quality.  Random pagan websites are a mish-mash.  Some utter rubbish, some fantastic, and the vast majority somewhere in between.

 

I invite you to  to look up our CUUPS (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans) group on the Book of Faces here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/whiteoakgrovecuups/  We're a conglomeration of a LOT of different Pagan paths, and while there are only a few of us who post regularly, there are a lot of people who hand around in the background.

 

You can also PM me here, though I'm on intermittantly... Life happens, doesn't it?  I'd be glad to help!

[Geordon]

On 7/27/2019 at 6:41 AM, RevBogovac said:

I guess you’re right Jonathan, but there are some facts in there too... so maybe we can split it up a bit...

 

What online resource is a good factual place to start research regarding the physical world from a Pagan perspective? 

 

Any online gathering of Pagans going on that could be a good place to start for me to look at?

 

This also falls into the "Talking to Pagans is like herding cats" category.  There are so very many different kinds and paths of Pagans, that almost the only universal truth is that no two Pagans are alike.

 

I don't know of any Dutch resources, unfortunately, but you might be able to find something useful at the CUUPS main website: http://www.cuups.org

 or the CUUPS main Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/groups/CUUPS/

 

As Johnathan said, the best way to learn about Paganism is to roll up your sleeves and start DOING.  Most Pagans that I know are more interested in DOING than reading about doing.  There is no way to learn all about Paganism.  There is always something else to learn, some other way to encounter the world.  What I would suggest is do some on-line research about the various types and ways of Paganism, then just picking an area to investigate with her, based on her abilities.

 

I identify as Druid, Buddhist, and devotional hard polytheist.  That's a fancy way of saying that I do certain things to honor one of the divine entities, which I view and encounter as distinct and separate from other divine entities. As opposed to a "soft" polytheist who would tend to view all divine entities as different aspects or faces of the same greater, central divine entity.

 

My wife considers herself to be a "hedge witch" which would be similar to a historical wise woman who lived outside the village and people visited for various potions, ointments, teas, etc to make their lives easier.

 

I could be more help if you could let me know what some of her interests and abilities (and capabilities) are.  My knowledge is yours. 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Geordon said:

 

This also falls into the "Talking to Pagans is like herding cats" category.  There are so very many different kinds and paths of Pagans, that almost the only universal truth is that no two Pagans are alike.

 

I don't know of any Dutch resources, unfortunately, but you might be able to find something useful at the CUUPS main website: http://www.cuups.org

 or the CUUPS main Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/groups/CUUPS/

 

As Johnathan said, the best way to learn about Paganism is to roll up your sleeves and start DOING.  Most Pagans that I know are more interested in DOING than reading about doing.  There is no way to learn all about Paganism.  There is always something else to learn, some other way to encounter the world.  What I would suggest is do some on-line research about the various types and ways of Paganism, then just picking an area to investigate with her, based on her abilities.

 

I identify as Druid, Buddhist, and devotional hard polytheist.  That's a fancy way of saying that I do certain things to honor one of the divine entities, which I view and encounter as distinct and separate from other divine entities. As opposed to a "soft" polytheist who would tend to view all divine entities as different aspects or faces of the same greater, central divine entity.

 

My wife considers herself to be a "hedge witch" which would be similar to a historical wise woman who lived outside the village and people visited for various potions, ointments, teas, etc to make their lives easier.

 

I could be more help if you could let me know what some of her interests and abilities (and capabilities) are.  My knowledge is yours. 

 

 

 

 

I would like to throw in a few words of caution.  By and large, real Pagans are not advertising to the outside world.  That makes Pagan priests, high priests, schools of ancient wisdom and seminaries etc. -- who are advertising  -- to be suspect.  They don't have to be frauds, but I would be suspicious.

 

It's an old bit of practical wisdom.  "The people who know, are not talking.  The people who are talking, don't know."

 

Seriously.  It's hard enough coming out as Atheist.  I don't have to tell you.  Coming out as Pagan, can't be easy.

 

 

[Geordon]

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I would like to throw in a few words of caution.  By and large, real Pagans are not advertising to the outside world.  That makes Pagan priests, high priests, schools of ancient wisdom and seminaries etc. -- who are advertising  -- to be suspect.  They don't have to be frauds, but I would be suspicious.

 

A lot of that has to do with the fact that Paganism generally looks down on proselytizing.  Many of us see that as trying to push one variety of religion on someone who doesn't necessarily want or need it.

 

That's not to say that there aren't paid classes, etc that are not valuable, because I know that there are some that are very good.  Those tend to be specialized for a particular topic or audience.  There has been a big debate for YEARS over whether it is "ethical" to charge for teaching in the Pagan community.  Personally, I think there is a LOT of reason to charge for exchange of knowledge, similar to how you pay to take your car to a mechanic, call a plumber in to fix a leak, or a doctor when you are ill.  They have spent the time and expense to become specialists in their fields, and they deserve to be compensated for their expertise.

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It's an old bit of practical wisdom.  "The people who know, are not talking.  The people who are talking, don't know."

 

Seriously.  It's hard enough coming out as Atheist.  I don't have to tell you.  Coming out as Pagan, can't be easy.

 

 

 

IMO, it's actually easier to come out as Pagan than it is Atheist, these days.  Atheists are usually attacked en masse by the monotheists, because everybody "knows" that it's not possible to be moral and not be afraid of an eternity in a lake of fire.  I mean, come on.  You have to be afraid in order to not commit murder, right?  

 

Seriously, though, it used to be extremely bad to be a public Pagan.  Loss of parental rights, loss of career, forced indoctrination, etc.  Those were significant and real risks for Pagans not too many years ago.  For us, it's gotten a lot better.  For a large part, we're just kind of ignored right now.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Geordon said:

 

A lot of that has to do with the fact that Paganism generally looks down on proselytizing.  Many of us see that as trying to push one variety of religion on someone who doesn't necessarily want or need it.

 

That's not to say that there aren't paid classes, etc that are not valuable, because I know that there are some that are very good.  Those tend to be specialized for a particular topic or audience.  There has been a big debate for YEARS over whether it is "ethical" to charge for teaching in the Pagan community.  Personally, I think there is a LOT of reason to charge for exchange of knowledge, similar to how you pay to take your car to a mechanic, call a plumber in to fix a leak, or a doctor when you are ill.  They have spent the time and expense to become specialists in their fields, and they deserve to be compensated for their expertise.

 

 

IMO, it's actually easier to come out as Pagan than it is Atheist, these days.  Atheists are usually attacked en masse by the monotheists, because everybody "knows" that it's not possible to be moral and not be afraid of an eternity in a lake of fire.  I mean, come on.  You have to be afraid in order to not commit murder, right?  

 

Seriously, though, it used to be extremely bad to be a public Pagan.  Loss of parental rights, loss of career, forced indoctrination, etc.  Those were significant and real risks for Pagans not too many years ago.  For us, it's gotten a lot better.  For a large part, we're just kind of ignored right now.

 

 

I have a lot of dim memories, which have fused.  Memories of people being accused of being witches -- so of course, they were unfit parents.  Or public officials.  Or what ever.  At minimum, they were subject to public ridicule and suspicion.  Have things really changed?  I'm not in a position to know.  My perception lingers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LeopardBoy]

It’s been my experience that the loudest voices in the pagan community speak for and to a specific audience. Namely adherents of the myriad traditions that derive from Wicca or are at least similar enough to speak the same ritual and theological “language”.

 

Many of the reconstructionist polytheists, myself included, or followers of indigenous polytheisms tend to keep to our own smaller communities.  We don’t have that same shared language for the most part that the greater pagan community has. Which again is due to its origins in a specific religion (Wicca), or an eclectic pagan mix so derived from it that they at least share the same Western occult-based ritual stylings and eight holidays.