Salvation for Fallen Humans & Fallen Angels (A Practical Guide)

[cuchulain]

People with faith are wrong at least as often as anyone else.  My father in law is devout.  That doesn't keep him from being wrong occasionally.  And you keep telling us you don't have enough faith to be an atheist.  Clearly your wrong about what we believe, on purpose.  Let's face it, nobody is buying the misunderstanding stance when you say we believe nothing, anymore.  You've apologized too many times for it to work again.

[Dan56]

9 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

What a load of bull$#!?. Why do you assume that?

 

What a sweetheart .. You missed my point, I wasn't inferring that you don't have a life or a sense of belonging, I was speaking in respect to knowing where you came from and having a spiritual purpose.  And yes, I'm aware that your convinced that you originated from pond scum, to apes, to man... Nothing mythical about that huh?

 

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I find that arguing with you, is like walking in mud.  Tiresome and pointless.  

 

Even now, you're sticking with the line, about Atheists believe nothing.  This alone tells me that you're not prepared to be reasonable.  Even cats find value in their lives. 

"Far left mindset"?  This is something that you keep doing.  You keep defining me and my positions.

 

In like manner, you do the same things with my vocabulary.  You take basic words, like Agnostic and Atheist -- distort them from a Fundamentalist perspective -- and refuse to understand why I'm offended.  Letting people define themselves is basic to mutual respect.  Clearly, you have none.

 

Again, I didn't insinuate that you can't find value in your lives, my point was that you have no purpose beyond the here and now. In other words, after your dead, everything you own, belong to, and value, die with you. So my comment was from a spiritual perspective, you have no purpose beyond the grave. I don't say that to be mean, in fact its sad to me.  And again, "atheist believe nothing" is only a reference to the divine,  in the sense that they believe in no God or gods.

 

You expressed far left opinions (pro-abortion, hate Trump, etc) so I presumed your a Democrat from you opinions because it just seemed obvious. But sorry if I mischaracterized your political affiliation.

 

And I'm not arguing, I just state my opinions.. I suspect your only tired because you challenge everything I believe, but that's not really necessary. Gets some sleep old man

[cuchulain]

A person makes a mistake.  It's pointed out.  They apologize.  Repeat a dozen or so times.  Is it still a mistake or is it obviously deliberate?  If it's still a mistake, the person has trouble learning.  If deliberate, they are baiting. Which are you Dan?

Edited March 27, 2019 by cuchulain

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

What a sweetheart .. You missed my point, I wasn't inferring that you don't have a life or a sense of belonging, I was speaking in respect to knowing where you came from and having a spiritual purpose.  And yes, I'm aware that your convinced that you originated from pond scum, to apes, to man... Nothing mythical about that huh?

 

 

Again, I didn't insinuate that you can't find value in your lives, my point was that you have no purpose beyond the here and now. In other words, after your dead, everything you own, belong to, and value, die with you. So my comment was from a spiritual perspective, you have no purpose beyond the grave. I don't say that to be mean, in fact its sad to me.  And again, "atheist believe nothing" is only a reference to the divine,  in the sense that they believe in no God or gods.

 

You expressed far left opinions (pro-abortion, hate Trump, etc) so I presumed your a Democrat from you opinions because it just seemed obvious. But sorry if I mischaracterized your political affiliation.

 

And I'm not arguing, I just state my opinions.. I suspect your only tired because you challenge everything I believe, but that's not really necessary. Gets some sleep old man

 

My life is an open book.  If you must know such things about me, I'm willing to answer.  Not on this thread.  If you actually care, start a political thread.

 

In the meantime, kindly stop jumping to conclusions.  It's annoying.

 

 

 

[Key]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

What a sweetheart .. You missed my point, I wasn't inferring that you don't have a life or a sense of belonging, I was speaking in respect to knowing where you came from and having a spiritual purpose.  And yes, I'm aware that your convinced that you originated from pond scum, to apes, to man... Nothing mythical about that huh?

 

 

Again, I didn't insinuate that you can't find value in your lives, my point was that you have no purpose beyond the here and now. In other words, after your dead, everything you own, belong to, and value, die with you. So my comment was from a spiritual perspective, you have no purpose beyond the grave. I don't say that to be mean, in fact its sad to me.  And again, "atheist believe nothing" is only a reference to the divine,  in the sense that they believe in no God or gods.

 

You expressed far left opinions (pro-abortion, hate Trump, etc) so I presumed your a Democrat from you opinions because it just seemed obvious. But sorry if I mischaracterized your political affiliation.

 

And I'm not arguing, I just state my opinions.. I suspect your only tired because you challenge everything I believe, but that's not really necessary. Gets some sleep old man

Dan, that is very presumptuous of you. I happen to know many Republicans, or right leaning folks who also are pro-abortion and hate Trump.

 

As for the no belief in God or gods? It's been stated many times that he thinks they are possible, but needs conclusive proof to believe He or they exist.

[Dan56]

12 hours ago, cuchulain said:

A person makes a mistake.  It's pointed out.  They apologize.  Repeat a dozen or so times.  Is it still a mistake or is it obviously deliberate?  If it's still a mistake, the person has trouble learning.  If deliberate, they are baiting. Which are you Dan?

 

What mistakes? Without specifics, I don't know what your talking about. But when someone mischaracterizes something I wrote or misconstrues the context of a point I'm making, I correct them by explaining what I was trying to emphasize. That's not apologizing per se, its just re-explaining something in a more simplistic way so you can comprehend an entire sentence instead of focusing on a couple of words you don't like.

 

3 hours ago, Key said:

Dan, that is very presumptuous of you. I happen to know many Republicans, or right leaning folks who also are pro-abortion and hate Trump.

 

As for the no belief in God or gods? It's been stated many times that he thinks they are possible, but needs conclusive proof to believe He or they exist.

 

Remember that I only wrote,  "I believe you guys are extremely liberal". That was a guess, and I'd still lay odds that most of these guys are liberal, even though they haven't admitted it. Imo, most of their positions are far left  (anti-Christian, pro gay marriage, hatred of Trump, pro-abortion, etc). So its not a huge stretch to conclude someone is liberal when their opinions and positions pretty much mirror the democratic platform. 

 

And I'm aware Jonathan is agnostic, but I wasn't referring to him specifically, it was only a general comment directed towards atheism, which is why I wrote; "atheist believe nothing" is only a reference to the divine,  in the sense that they believe in no God or gods." Somehow they keep spinning that remark into an insult, when its a simple point of fact? After-all, if an Atheist believed in anything divine, they would not be an atheist.

 

[RevBogovac]

15 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] knowing where you came from and having a spiritual purpose.  And yes, I'm aware that your convinced that you originated from pond scum, to apes, to man... Nothing mythical about that huh? [...]

 

A hell of a lot more proof of that, than of your mythological books... but you just keep believing this world is the centre of the universe... you don't need proof, right?

 

15 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] Again, I didn't insinuate that you can't find value in your lives, my point was that you have no purpose beyond the here and now. In other words, after your dead, everything you own, belong to, and value, die with you. [....]

 

And again, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.... if you had just payed a bit more attention in highschool you would probably have known that energy is "immortal" (it only changes shape). So anyone who just grasps basic physics knows part of him has lived, and will live forever... Only thing is: physics explains (and proves) it a lot better than mythology.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

A hell of a lot more proof of that, than of your mythological books... but you just keep believing this world is the centre of the universe... you don't need proof, right?

 

 

And again, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.... if you had just payed a bit more attention in highschool you would probably have known that energy is "immortal" (it only changes shape). So anyone who just grasps basic physics knows part of him has lived, and will live forever... Only thing is: physics explains (and proves) it a lot better than mythology.

 

 

 

Talking about souls is a lot like talking about God.  We have no hard facts and we don't know.  We can speculate.  We can reason.  We can believe.  But we don't know.  Even if our "essence" -- how ever you define that -- lives on -- we don't know if individuality persists.  We don't know if it is conscious.  We can speculate.  We can reason.  We can believe.  But we don't know.  The people who wrote the books of the Bible, didn't know any more about souls, than we do.

 

In the meantime, in a total absence of hard facts -- we have to live.  If we are not to waste the only lives that we can be sure of -- we can't be afraid of life or death.  Well, we can be afraid.  It doesn't help.

 

I think the same applies to God.  We have no hard facts; and the people who wrote the books of the Bible, didn't know any more about God, than we do.  We can pretend that we know.  We can apply reason.  We can speculate.  We can believe.  We can disbelieve.  We don't know.

 

My contention is that since we know nothing at all about God; debating God's possible existence is a waste.  I think it is more relevant to ask; what possible difference it makes.  In the end, what is -- is.  What is not -- is not.  Belief, non-belief and dis-belief are all equally irrelevant and meaningless. 

 

This is where I should point out the obvious.  People don't waste a lot of time arguing about the old gods.  I never hear a lot of arguments, about the existence of the mighty Thor.  He must have been a big deal in the past.  We still honor him every Thursday.  We honor Frey every Friday.

 

Demands that Science answer all questions -- right now -- with finality -- for all time --  betray an ignorance of what science is, and how the scientific process works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

What mistakes? Without specifics, I don't know what your talking about. But when someone mischaracterizes something I wrote or misconstrues the context of a point I'm making, I correct them by explaining what I was trying to emphasize. That's not apologizing per se, its just re-explaining something in a more simplistic way so you can comprehend an entire sentence instead of focusing on a couple of words you don't like.

 

 

Remember that I only wrote,  "I believe you guys are extremely liberal". That was a guess, and I'd still lay odds that most of these guys are liberal, even though they haven't admitted it. Imo, most of their positions are far left  (anti-Christian, pro gay marriage, hatred of Trump, pro-abortion, etc). So its not a huge stretch to conclude someone is liberal when their opinions and positions pretty much mirror the democratic platform. 

 

And I'm aware Jonathan is agnostic, but I wasn't referring to him specifically, it was only a general comment directed towards atheism, which is why I wrote; "atheist believe nothing" is only a reference to the divine,  in the sense that they believe in no God or gods." Somehow they keep spinning that remark into an insult, when its a simple point of fact? After-all, if an Atheist believed in anything divine, they would not be an atheist.

 

 

 

If you really want to play that game -- the Atheists on this board will start defining Fundamentalists -- in ways that will give you no joy.  I suggest that you quit before things escalate.

 

 

[RevBogovac]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] Demands that Science answer all questions -- right now -- with finality -- for all time --  betray an ignorance of what science is, and how the scientific process works.

 

 

 

'The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.'

 

[cuchulain]

"I believe you guys are extremely liberal"...see, when I say you either do this on purpose or cannot learn, the reason is because of these statements.  You have been told numerous times I am not liberal...yet still, even though you apologized for the assumption in the past, you make it again...and again...and again...and still don't get it.

 

But yeah, clearly nobody else on this board notices the baiting that you constantly provide, even to the point where fellow Christians are telling you that you make false assumptions...

[Key]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

What mistakes? Without specifics, I don't know what your talking about. But when someone mischaracterizes something I wrote or misconstrues the context of a point I'm making, I correct them by explaining what I was trying to emphasize. That's not apologizing per se, its just re-explaining something in a more simplistic way so you can comprehend an entire sentence instead of focusing on a couple of words you don't like.

 

 

Remember that I only wrote,  "I believe you guys are extremely liberal". That was a guess, and I'd still lay odds that most of these guys are liberal, even though they haven't admitted it. Imo, most of their positions are far left  (anti-Christian, pro gay marriage, hatred of Trump, pro-abortion, etc). So its not a huge stretch to conclude someone is liberal when their opinions and positions pretty much mirror the democratic platform. 

 

And I'm aware Jonathan is agnostic, but I wasn't referring to him specifically, it was only a general comment directed towards atheism, which is why I wrote; "atheist believe nothing" is only a reference to the divine,  in the sense that they believe in no God or gods." Somehow they keep spinning that remark into an insult, when its a simple point of fact? After-all, if an Atheist believed in anything divine, they would not be an atheist.

 

Wow. You do realize I highlighted your quote in question in my response, right? That quote didn't say, "I believe you guys are extremely liberal."

 

As for the atheist comment...that is not how your explanation comes across when often it is accompanied with questions or doubt on a person's ability to have morals because of a lack of belief in a God. Not always, but frequent enough as to be a reminder in the argument of the divine.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

What mistakes? Without specifics, I don't know what your talking about. But when someone mischaracterizes something I wrote or misconstrues the context of a point I'm making, I correct them by explaining what I was trying to emphasize. That's not apologizing per se, its just re-explaining something in a more simplistic way so you can comprehend an entire sentence instead of focusing on a couple of words you don't like.

 

 

Remember that I only wrote,  "I believe you guys are extremely liberal". That was a guess, and I'd still lay odds that most of these guys are liberal, even though they haven't admitted it. Imo, most of their positions are far left  (anti-Christian, pro gay marriage, hatred of Trump, pro-abortion, etc). So its not a huge stretch to conclude someone is liberal when their opinions and positions pretty much mirror the democratic platform. 

 

And I'm aware Jonathan is agnostic, but I wasn't referring to him specifically, it was only a general comment directed towards atheism, which is why I wrote; "atheist believe nothing" is only a reference to the divine,  in the sense that they believe in no God or gods." Somehow they keep spinning that remark into an insult, when its a simple point of fact? After-all, if an Atheist believed in anything divine, they would not be an atheist.

 

 

 

I feel the need to elaborate.  Dan, Atheists are not "spinning" your "remark" into an insult.  It is an insult.  You have been told repeatedly, that Atheists find it insulting.  I don't care what you think it means.  Atheists take it as insulting.  You know that Atheists find it insulting.  Yet you continue to make the same remark.

 

So, I repeat the question that Cuchulain put to you.  Are you going out of your way to troll us and be as offensive as possible -- while pretending to be misunderstood?  Or are you so stupid, you can't tell when you are offending people?  Or, an additional possibility.  You are simply indifferent to the feelings of others and you don't care that you are offending people.

 

No matter which it is, you are being offensive.  Your innocent act, is rubbing salt into the wounds.  Please.  Cut the crap.  Stop it.  Or man up and declare yourself openly.

 

I refuse to believe that you're that stupid.  Am I mistaken about you?

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

4 hours ago, cuchulain said:

"I believe you guys are extremely liberal"...see, when I say you either do this on purpose or cannot learn, the reason is because of these statements.  You have been told numerous times I am not liberal...yet still, even though you apologized for the assumption in the past, you make it again...and again...and again...and still don't get it.

 

But yeah, clearly nobody else on this board notices the baiting that you constantly provide, even to the point where fellow Christians are telling you that you make false assumptions...

 

 

Quote

Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

17 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

 

 

 

It's an interesting thought.  I considered stupidity.  I considered trolling, or being vicious.  Maybe it is insanity.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

15 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

A hell of a lot more proof of that, than of your mythological books... but you just keep believing this world is the centre of the universe... you don't need proof, right?

 

And again, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.... if you had just payed a bit more attention in highschool you would probably have known that energy is "immortal" (it only changes shape). So anyone who just grasps basic physics knows part of him has lived, and will live forever... Only thing is: physics explains (and proves) it a lot better than mythology.

 

Neither of us have "proof", we've just chosen to believe different things.. Its fine with me if you think your belief is more likely to be true, but please allow me the same courtesy.

"Energy is immortal" is an unusual way to phrase it. So since energy changes state when you die, does your consciousness go with it?

 

 

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

If you really want to play that game -- the Atheists on this board will start defining Fundamentalists -- in ways that will give you no joy.  I suggest that you quit before things escalate.

 

I believe many have already defined fundamentalism in many different negative ways, but it doesn't bother me at all.

 

9 hours ago, cuchulain said:

"I believe you guys are extremely liberal"...see, when I say you either do this on purpose or cannot learn, the reason is because of these statements.  You have been told numerous times I am not liberal...yet still, even though you apologized for the assumption in the past, you make it again...and again...and again...and still don't get it.

 

 

"You guys" was not specific to you. Those who express very liberal views are who I believe are liberal, but it was not all-inclusive.

 

9 hours ago, Key said:

Wow. You do realize I highlighted your quote in question in my response, right? That quote didn't say, "I believe you guys are extremely liberal."

 

As for the atheist comment...that is not how your explanation comes across when often it is accompanied with questions or doubt on a person's ability to have morals because of a lack of belief in a God. Not always, but frequent enough as to be a reminder in the argument of the divine.

 

"I believe you guys are extremely liberal"was my remark in my previous post prior to the one you highlighted. What you quoted was my response as to why I made the previous statement. So I thought it was relevant since I was expressing my belief and then gave the reasons that supported my belief.. You know, being liberal is not a sin, so I don't know why anyone finds it insulting?  And I'll take note of your second point, of course I recognize Atheist have morals, but they just aren't biblical.

 

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I feel the need to elaborate.  Dan, Atheists are not "spinning" your "remark" into an insult.  It is an insult.  You have been told repeatedly, that Atheists find it insulting.  I don't care what you think it means.  Atheists take it as insulting.  You know that Atheists find it insulting.  Yet you continue to make the same remark.

 

So, I repeat the question that Cuchulain put to you.  Are you going out of your way to troll us and be as offensive as possible -- while pretending to be misunderstood?  Or are you so stupid, you can't tell when you are offending people?  Or, an additional possibility.  You are simply indifferent to the feelings of others and you don't care that you are offending people.

 

No matter which it is, you are being offensive.  Your innocent act, is rubbing salt into the wounds.  Please.  Cut the crap.  Stop it.  Or man up and declare yourself openly.

 

I refuse to believe that you're that stupid.  Am I mistaken about you?

 

I defined what Atheism is a half dozen times and I defined it correctly "Atheist believe in nothing divine, no deity, God/gods".

 

Here's the dictionaries short definition; "Atheist, a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods"

Here's the longer definition; "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists." (Wikipedia)

 

So, if Atheist take the definition as insulting, I can't change the definition to sooth their precious feelings.. It is what it is, and if an Atheist pretends to find the definition of Atheism to be offensive, then stupidity isn't on my end of the conversation.. If you have a different definition of Atheist, please redefine it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Neither of us have "proof", we've just chosen to believe different things.. Its fine with me if you think your belief is more likely to be true, but please allow me the same courtesy.

"Energy is immortal" is an unusual way to phrase it. So since energy changes state when you die, does your consciousness go with it?

 

 

 

I believe many have already defined fundamentalism in many different negative ways, but it doesn't bother me at all.

 

 

"You guys" was not specific to you. Those who express very liberal views are who I believe are liberal, but it was not all-inclusive.

 

 

"I believe you guys are extremely liberal"was my remark in my previous post prior to the one you highlighted. What you quoted was my response as to why I made the previous statement. So I thought it was relevant since I was expressing my belief and then gave the reasons that supported my belief.. You know, being liberal is not a sin, so I don't know why anyone finds it insulting?  And I'll take note of your second point, of course I recognize Atheist have morals, but they just aren't biblical.

 

 

I defined what Atheism is a half dozen times and I defined it correctly "Atheist believe in nothing divine, no deity, God/gods".

 

Here's the dictionaries short definition; "Atheist, a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods"

Here's the longer definition; "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists." (Wikipedia)

 

So, if Atheist take the definition as insulting, I can't change the definition to sooth their precious feelings.. It is what it is, and if an Atheist pretends to find the definition of Atheism to be offensive, then stupidity isn't on my end of the conversation.. If you have a different definition of Atheist, please redefine it.

 

 

Do you seriously mean to say, that you can't tell the difference between -- Atheists don't believe in God --and --Atheists believe in nothing. ???          

 

What's wrong with you?         Are you deaf to distinctions?  Is all nuance and meaning lost on you?     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cuchulain]

Deliberate.

And our objection is also within the definition of insane, excepting that may be a mod will eventually catch on to Dan's deliberate baiting. 

[Brother Kaman]

The forum is here for honest conversation and discussion of varied opinions and outlooks in order for us to gain understanding of each other and our varied beliefs or lack of belief. If one does not think the discussions are honest, one must question why they are taking part.

[Key]

13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

"I believe you guys are extremely liberal"was my remark in my previous post prior to the one you highlighted. What you quoted was my response as to why I made the previous statement. So I thought it was relevant since I was expressing my belief and then gave the reasons that supported my belief.. You know, being liberal is not a sin, so I don't know why anyone finds it insulting?  And I'll take note of your second point, of course I recognize Atheist have morals, but they just aren't biblical.

 

"You expressed far left opinions (pro-abortion, hate Trump, etc) so I presumed your a Democrat from you opinions because it just seemed obvious. But sorry if I mischaracterized your political affiliation."

Above in red is the quote I referred. It is, itself, quite different from the quote in blue, also provided above, in that not only do you assume someone to be affiliated to one ideology over another, you also pinprick talking points as to why you feel they are, and by doing so in such way, as to form an opinion you think they are wrong and that the other ideology doesn't think the same way. 

I pointed out that that was untrue, and that there are, indeed, others who think the same way, but aren't left leaning. Still, you didn't seem to understand that, or simply overlooked it based on your own bias.

 

Then, you go and throw in "...but they aren't biblical"? Is there truly such a tremendous distinction of right/wrong, or moral/immoral being "biblical" or not? The only difference I see, is that the Bible calls wrong/immoral choices "sins".

Edited March 29, 2019 by Key
grammar