a common atheist fallacy

[cuchulain]

Something I have had trouble with as a person in general, but especially in the area of discussing my atheism, is understanding that I do not have to answer a bunch of questions.  The conversation(or attempted conversion, if you will) usually goes something like..."I'm an atheist", and the response being "Why don't you believe in God?".  That's right where I and many others mishandle things, I think.  I have no burden to answer why I don't believe in God.  When asked this question, I try to remember I don't have the burden to prove why I don't believe, but that the person who is at this point trying to convert me has the burden to show why I should believe.

Often it is the case that a generally nice person will try to answer the questions put to them.  A question places a lot of feelings on me, personally.  Usually I feel like I owe the person asking some kind of response, it just seems like the polite thing, you know?  I have been raised by people who believe in giving to each other, in respecting each other and treating each other the way we would like to be treated.  For the most part, this is sound practice for me.  But there are those people out there who know just what that means, and they use it to place a burden on me that doesn't exist but that I perceive nonetheless.  

Just a thought for the day, after dealing with some narcissistic personality types.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Something I have had trouble with as a person in general, but especially in the area of discussing my atheism, is understanding that I do not have to answer a bunch of questions.  The conversation(or attempted conversion, if you will) usually goes something like..."I'm an atheist", and the response being "Why don't you believe in God?".  That's right where I and many others mishandle things, I think.  I have no burden to answer why I don't believe in God.  When asked this question, I try to remember I don't have the burden to prove why I don't believe, but that the person who is at this point trying to convert me has the burden to show why I should believe.

Often it is the case that a generally nice person will try to answer the questions put to them.  A question places a lot of feelings on me, personally.  Usually I feel like I owe the person asking some kind of response, it just seems like the polite thing, you know?  I have been raised by people who believe in giving to each other, in respecting each other and treating each other the way we would like to be treated.  For the most part, this is sound practice for me.  But there are those people out there who know just what that means, and they use it to place a burden on me that doesn't exist but that I perceive nonetheless.  

Just a thought for the day, after dealing with some narcissistic personality types.

 

I generally try to avoid these arguments.  They are such a time suck.  Nothing good ever come of them and life is too short.  On those rare occasions, when I do allow myself to be pulled in -- I keep my responses simple.  "Why would I do that?"  That is, if you want to be nice.  The not nice answer is --  "Because I'm not stupid."  At this point, they walk away and you get to go about your business.  

 

When someone insists on knowing why you don't believe -- they are proceeding on the assumption that you are broken and need fixing.  They are here to help you -- you lucky wretch.  It is a miserable foundation for conversation.

 

Nobody has to show you anything, unless they want to change you.  Then it's their problem.  Not yours.  What do you have to prove?  Nothing.  The sooner they leave you alone, the better.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

No one has a burden of answering why they do or don't believe in God, but it would seem to be polite conversation to articulate your reasons for believing or not believing..  Its just more polite to say, "I don't believe in God because..."  rather than saying, "Its none of your business". But your essentially correct, your under no obligation to explain why you don't believe in God anymore than a person is required to explain why they do believe in God.  I understand that most Atheist don't want to be preached at, so if I were you, I'd just say that I've never seen or heard from any God, that I think the stories are just a bunch of made-up crap, and that I can't blindly accept anything without an inkling of tangible evidence to prove its authentic. Hopefully a response like that will bring the conversation to a quick conclusion and you can gracefully exit.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

No one has a burden of answering why they do or don't believe in God, but it would seem to be polite conversation to articulate your reasons for believing or not believing..  Its just more polite to say, "I don't believe in God because..."  rather than saying, "Its none of your business". But your essentially correct, your under no obligation to explain why you don't believe in God anymore than a person is required to explain why they do believe in God.  I understand that most Atheist don't want to be preached at, so if I were you, I'd just say that I've never seen or heard from any God, that I think the stories are just a bunch of made-up crap, and that I can't blindly accept anything without an inkling of tangible evidence to prove its authentic. Hopefully a response like that will bring the conversation to a quick conclusion and you can gracefully exit.

 

Alright.  I have no objections to being polite.  Civility is good.

 

"I don't believe in your God"  (we should specify)  "because....."

 

1.  because there is no reason for such a belief.  None at all.

 

2.  because there is no objective, verifiable information about this God.  None at all.

 

3.  because Scripture is not proof of anything.  Neither is the faith of others, proof of anything.

 

4.  because I refuse to be terrorized by threats of eternal damnation.

 

5.  because Christian history.  "By their fruits you will know them........."

 

6. because Christian persecution continues -- Jews, witches, gay people, Pagans.........  "By their fruits......."

 

7.  because, the Holocaust

 

8.  Holy wars between the Christian groups.  "By their fruits....."

 

9.  The Holy Land, claimed by all three Abrahamic faiths.

 

10.  Because Jewish history

 

Is that enough?

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I forgot a few.

 

Because people who claim to hold Scripture inerrant, have no problem ignoring the commands of Jesus.  They do this, because it is more important to them to be cultural bullies -- than to obey God.

A.  To pray in secret instead of in public.

B.  Forced public prayer at government functions

C.  Forced public prayer at sporting events

D.  "In God we trust" on all the money.

E.  "Under God" in The Pledge.

F.  Forcing Nativity scenes onto Public Land.

G.  Forcing Creationism into Science Classes in Public School.

H.  Fighting gay rights in every possible venue.

I.   Forcing Ten Commandment monuments in front of government courthouses.

 

I'm sure I forgot a few more.

 

I do despise bullies.  "By their fruits you will know them."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mererdog]

"I don't know. I just don't."

[mark 45]

even tho i identify as atheist,i have gotten to the point of saying i am agnostic,if asked.both are for the same reasons,i have seen nothing to prove/disprove the existence of any deity.then i walk away. 

[Brother Kaman]

On 5/9/2018 at 4:27 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I forgot a few.

 

Because people who claim to hold Scripture inerrant, have no problem ignoring the commands of Jesus.  They do this, because it is more important to them to be cultural bullies -- than to obey God.

A.  To pray in secret instead of in public.

B.  Forced public prayer at government functions

C.  Forced public prayer at sporting events

D.  "In God we trust" on all the money.

E.  "Under God" in The Pledge.

F.  Forcing Nativity scenes onto Public Land.

G.  Forcing Creationism into Science Classes in Public School.

H.  Fighting gay rights in every possible venue.

I.   Forcing Ten Commandment monuments in front of government courthouses.

 

I'm sure I forgot a few more.

 

I do despise bullies.  "By their fruits you will know them."

 

 

 

 

 

Do not feel so all alone, everybody must get stoned.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

Do not feel so all alone, everybody must get stoned.

 

"The Dude abides."

 

😐

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

9 hours ago, mark 45 said:

even tho i identify as atheist,i have gotten to the point of saying i am agnostic,if asked.both are for the same reasons,i have seen nothing to prove/disprove the existence of any deity.then i walk away. 

 

 

Yes.  Life is too short for silly arguments.

 

 

[Dan56]

On 5/9/2018 at 1:14 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Is that enough?

 

Your points are all argumentative, so perhaps "Its none of your business" would be a better response after-all... ☺️

 

On 5/10/2018 at 9:00 AM, mark 45 said:

even tho i identify as atheist,i have gotten to the point of saying i am agnostic,if asked.both are for the same reasons,i have seen nothing to prove/disprove the existence of any deity.then i walk away. 

 

No proof certainly eliminates the necessity of debating the details, and walking away is a time saver ...  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Your points are all argumentative, so perhaps "Its none of your business" would be a better response after-all... ☺️

 

 

No proof certainly eliminates the necessity of debating the details, and walking away is a time saver ...  

 

Argumentative?  Not having a reason to believe is argumentative?  Seriously?   

[Dan56]

On 5/9/2018 at 1:14 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Argumentative?  Not having a reason to believe is argumentative?  Seriously? I didn't say you had no reason not to believe, just that your reasons are as argumentative as those who state their reasons for believing. 

 

"I don't believe in your God"  (we should specify)  "because....."

 

1.  because there is no reason for such a belief.  None at all. Lots of reasons

 

2.  because there is no objective, verifiable information about this God.  None at all. Verifiable, recorded, and witnessed

 

3.  because Scripture is not proof of anything.  Neither is the faith of others, proof of anything. By that logic, our constitution is not proof of anything either, just another set of rules witnessed and signed by 40 people, which coincidentally coincides with about 40 people who wrote the bible.

 

4.  because I refuse to be terrorized by threats of eternal damnation. Its no threat to believers

 

5.  because Christian history.  "By their fruits you will know them........."  You mean like Apostles & Prophets dying for what they knew was true? Accepting persecution would seem to lend credibility to a historical truth.

 

6. because Christian persecution continues -- Jews, witches, gay people, Pagans.........  "By their fruits......." Not supporting other beliefs or life styles does not constitute persecution.. E.g; Not approving of drunkenness doesn't equate to persecuting alcoholics

 

7.  because, the Holocaust Really? You may be confusing Christians with Nazi's.

 

8.  Holy wars between the Christian groups.  "By their fruits....."  By their fruits you will know them, one learns to discern the difference between Christians and religious zealots.. Nothing "Holy" about wars to Christians, at least its not something taught by Christ.

 

9.  The Holy Land, claimed by all three Abrahamic faiths. Christians don't claim the land

 

10.  Because Jewish history Don't see the relevance, Jewish history is biblical, so it can't be an accurate reason for non-belief? 😊 

 

Is that enough? Its enough to demonstrate my point, reasons to believe or not believe can be explained away, either point of view is argumentative.

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

 

It is difficult to respond when you answer inside the box.  You know that.

 

There are no reasons to believe.  None at all.

 

We have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  None at all.

 

Scripture is not proof of anything.

 

The faith of others is not proof of anything.

 

I refuse to be terrorized with threats of Damnation.

 

That should serve for now.  I hold these truths to be self evident.

 

😐

 

Do not answer inside the box.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

No snappy comebacks?  I'm waiting.

 

Please.  Not in the box.

 

 

[Thumper]

On 5/8/2018 at 10:32 AM, cuchulain said:

Something I have had trouble with as a person in general, but especially in the area of discussing my atheism, is understanding that I do not have to answer a bunch of questions.  The conversation(or attempted conversion, if you will) usually goes something like..."I'm an atheist", and the response being "Why don't you believe in God?".  That's right where I and many others mishandle things, I think.  I have no burden to answer why I don't believe in God.  When asked this question, I try to remember I don't have the burden to prove why I don't believe, but that the person who is at this point trying to convert me has the burden to show why I should believe.

Often it is the case that a generally nice person will try to answer the questions put to them.  A question places a lot of feelings on me, personally.  Usually I feel like I owe the person asking some kind of response, it just seems like the polite thing, you know?  I have been raised by people who believe in giving to each other, in respecting each other and treating each other the way we would like to be treated.  For the most part, this is sound practice for me.  But there are those people out there who know just what that means, and they use it to place a burden on me that doesn't exist but that I perceive nonetheless.  

Just a thought for the day, after dealing with some narcissistic personality types.

 

My son has identified as an atheist and he has asked me what he should do when someone asks the common retort, "Why don't you believe in god".  I ask him to evaluate the person he is talking to.  Are they someone he can have an honest conversation with, or is this someone who is offended by your atheism and who isn't willing to have a discussion but rather wants to convert you.  If it is the latter, I advise him to smile and simply disengage with the conversation as politely as possible.  If it is the former, which it rarely is, have a conversation and learn why the person believes they way they do.  Its a good way to simply learn about people and perhaps they can apply critical thinking and reason to their belief system which would make for a great conversation.  

[Dan56]

On 5/12/2018 at 9:32 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

It is difficult to respond when you answer inside the box.  You know that.

 

There are no reasons to believe.  None at all.

 

We have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  None at all.

 

Scripture is not proof of anything.

 

Apparently, billions of people do believe, so your assertion of "no reasons to believe" are inaccurate.

 

Verifiable facts are all around you, you just don't like or choose to accept the answers.  Your DNA is like a blueprint of your soul, could something as astounding as our DNA have come from anywhere else but a creator? There are no naturalistic processes capable of such elaborate design and creation. Adherence to a belief system in denial of that objective reality suggest that an atheist’s denial of God is an emotional reaction, not a logical one. Its tantamount to suggesting that computers are a result of random chance via the evolutionary process.

 

The bible is its own ultimate proof. Ask yourself;

1. Is it rational or logical?
2. Does the physical evidence support it?
3. Does it fit the evidence better than any alternative theory?
4. Have many of its prophesies have been realized?
5. Does your own personal opinion, public consensus, or science, provide a plausible first cause for all that exist?

 

The tombs of Confucius, Buddha and Mohammad are all occupied, Christ is empty... Explain that?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Apparently, billions of people do believe, so your assertion of "no reasons to believe" are inaccurate.

 

Verifiable facts are all around you, you just don't like or choose to accept the answers.  Your DNA is like a blueprint of your soul, could something as astounding as our DNA have come from anywhere else but a creator? There are no naturalistic processes capable of such elaborate design and creation. Adherence to a belief system in denial of that objective reality suggest that an atheist’s denial of God is an emotional reaction, not a logical one. Its tantamount to suggesting that computers are a result of random chance via the evolutionary process.

 

The bible is its own ultimate proof. Ask yourself;

1. Is it rational or logical?
2. Does the physical evidence support it?
3. Does it fit the evidence better than any alternative theory?
4. Have many of its prophesies have been realized?
5. Does your own personal opinion, public consensus, or science, provide a plausible first cause for all that exist?

 

The tombs of Confucius, Buddha and Mohammad are all occupied, Christ is empty... Explain that?

 

1.  Reality is not determined by popularity.  There are many different religions with many followers.  They can't all be right.  They can all be mistaken.

 

2.  You do not understand evolution theory.  What you have given me is -- You don't understand.  Therefore God.  

 

Even if evolution were false -- it's not.

Even if there were a Creator God -- no proof.

 

It would still remain to be established that it is your God --  No evidence.

 

3.  As stated so well by Penjilette,  --  "The Bible is equal parts Science, History and Pizza."

 

4.  You are providing reasons to believe.              I need reasons to believe.  I don't need reasons to not believe.

 

5.  Once upon a time, there was an empty tomb.  So?  

 

🙄

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Even if evolution were false -- it's not.

 

Even if there were a Creator God -- no proof.

 

That's why its all argumentative, you state the theory of evolution as fact while dismissing the Creation theory as unproven. Whatever a person chooses to accept, it all comes down to belief. For myself, I'm convinced that the complexity of DNA is evidence of intelligent design. It sure makes a lot more sense than believing that random mutations are the accidental reason for all life forms having evolved from single celled organisms. Imo, the macro-evolutionary theory requires a lot more faith and gullibility to accept than God being the uncaused cause of all life. My book says we were created for a purpose, your book suggest that our existence is an accidental fluke; e.g, Once upon a time, we were pond scum. Hmm?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

29 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

That's why its all argumentative, you state the theory of evolution as fact while dismissing the Creation theory as unproven. Whatever a person chooses to accept, it all comes down to belief. For myself, I'm convinced that the complexity of DNA is evidence of intelligent design. It sure makes a lot more sense than believing that random mutations are the accidental reason for all life forms having evolved from single celled organisms. Imo, the macro-evolutionary theory requires a lot more faith and gullibility to accept than God being the uncaused cause of all life. My book says we were created for a purpose, your book suggest that our existence is an accidental fluke; e.g, Once upon a time, we were pond scum. Hmm?

 

You have objective, verifiable reasons to believe in God?  Not any God.  Your God?  Please.  Get on with it.

 

So far, everything you have to say could apply to Deism.  Where is the proof of your God?